KTM to file for Bankruptcy/ Self Restructuring on Friday

wrc777
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1/11/2025 9:20am
kage173 wrote:
What isn't real about colonizing Mars? We already have rovers on Mars exploring the surface. We hav e the technology to make it habitable. The only obstacle...

What isn't real about colonizing Mars? We already have rovers on Mars exploring the surface. We hav e the technology to make it habitable. 

The only obstacle is the cost of getting equipment and supplies into space. And SpaceX is well on their way to reducing the cost enough to make the economics viable. It costs NASA and everyone else on the planet $70k per kg of payload. It costs SpaceX $1.5-3k per kg right now. They've already dropped it an order of magnitude. If they drop it below $100 per kg, it's a done deal.

 

Mars has no magnetic field to protect against cosmic and solar radiation. How do you keep the people alive? Then there is the problem of there being no economic reason to be there. The moon is much closer and actually more hospitable since it gets some protection from the earth’s magnetic field. 

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1/11/2025 9:23am
kage173 wrote:
What isn't real about colonizing Mars? We already have rovers on Mars exploring the surface. We hav e the technology to make it habitable. The only obstacle...

What isn't real about colonizing Mars? We already have rovers on Mars exploring the surface. We hav e the technology to make it habitable. 

The only obstacle is the cost of getting equipment and supplies into space. And SpaceX is well on their way to reducing the cost enough to make the economics viable. It costs NASA and everyone else on the planet $70k per kg of payload. It costs SpaceX $1.5-3k per kg right now. They've already dropped it an order of magnitude. If they drop it below $100 per kg, it's a done deal.

 

wrc777 wrote:
Mars has no magnetic field to protect against cosmic and solar radiation. How do you keep the people alive? Then there is the problem of there...

Mars has no magnetic field to protect against cosmic and solar radiation. How do you keep the people alive? Then there is the problem of there being no economic reason to be there. The moon is much closer and actually more hospitable since it gets some protection from the earth’s magnetic field. 

Radiation environment at the moon is pretty much the same as deep space or mars. 

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wrc777
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1/11/2025 9:32am
Couldn't have said it better myself. There are correlations between PMG and the US Gov. And people can hate on Musk all they want but they...

Couldn't have said it better myself. There are correlations between PMG and the US Gov. And people can hate on Musk all they want but they have to put their personal feelings/politics aside and realize he is a net positive to society (a very high net gain). How can you dislike the guy?

-Eliminated millions of tons emissions into the atmosphere (Tesla)

-Saving lives with their FSD software (my Tesla has saved my life a couple times when I have dozed off) (Tesla)

-Trying to make full autonomous vehicles so people can rideshare and reduce more emissions and vehicles on the road (Tesla)

-Saving lives with their vehicles (safest on the road, 5 star ratings every category) (Tesla)

-Promoting free speech (1st Amendment). Eliminating censorship on X. Meta is now following suit

-Trying to reduce traffic (Boring company)

-Advancing space exploration and creating reusable rocket boosters (SpaceX)

-Saving stranded NASA astronauts with Crew Dragon Capsule at the space station when Boeing shits the bed (SpaceX)

-Creating an internet service that can be used anywhere, especially for poorer/rural areas and areas under distress (SpaceX, Starlink)

-Creating satellite-to- cell phone integration which save lives (SpaceX, Starlink)

-Military Defense (SpaceX, Starshield)

-AI advancement, soon to be integrated into Tesla vehicles (xAI)

-Brain computer interfaces for people with paralysis (Neuralink)

-I'm sure I'm forgetting something

The issue is some of your “facts” aren’t true or relied on government hand outs to happen.


- Tesla only survived because of government incentives and emissions credits bought from Tesla by other car companies that increased the cost of ice vehicles on everyone else. Some of us are not real happy about paying extra for our ice cars and higher government deficit spending to make Musk rich. 

- You can try to argue that electric cars reduce pollution but what they mostly do is replace co2 emissions with the incredibly toxic processing of lithium. I don’t think anyone even knows if an electric car is co2 positive, negative, or neutral if you include the entire life cycle. It takes a lot of diesel to mine 500k lbs of dirt for one Tesla battery pack.  

- By the way co2 is not a pollutant. It is plant food. Plants (and co2) are required for all life on earth.

- Musk appeared to reduce or eliminate censorship on X right up to the point he started getting pushback on his anti American h1b rant. The. The censorship was back and obvious. 

- SpaceX and Starlink look pretty positive all around. 

- Automated driving did not start with Tesla and they have been unable to deliver on fully autonomous driving to this point. I think they are years behind the promise date at this point and the completion is catching up. 

- There were/are plenty of five star crash tested vehicles before a Tesla ever hit the road so he at least managed to keep up with the best in that regard. 

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Team403
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1/11/2025 9:57pm

Chase- let us know if the check clears…

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The Shop

Motofinne
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1/11/2025 10:58pm

Can we please move the space and Musk discussions to some other thread?

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cwel11
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1/12/2025 3:57am
No, not really. I’ve always been a part of the labor pool and it’s paid well. Now, even tho I’m in a 40,000+ org, I’m in...

No, not really. I’ve always been a part of the labor pool and it’s paid well. Now, even tho I’m in a 40,000+ org, I’m in a position where I have a lot of autonomy, with the authority and the budget to do things the way I feel they should be done. I just never had the balls to go out on my own. Props to those that do. 

Spoonguy wrote:

Thought you were going to go down that whole tired old "oppressed/oppressor" narrative. Good God that gets weak.

LOL no. I'm from PA too. My old man was a Weatherly coal miner at 12 and my grandpa died of black lung at 68. I...

LOL no. I'm from PA too. My old man was a Weatherly coal miner at 12 and my grandpa died of black lung at 68. I don't play the woe-is-me game. Wink

No kidding? Never guessed you were a coal cracker! Weatherly less than an hr from us. How’d you end up all the way on the other side of the country? 

neysbo
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1/12/2025 5:37am
Team403 wrote:

Chase- let us know if the check clears…

For sure, wonder what he does if does not get the 100k bonus for winning

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BobPA
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1/12/2025 5:55am
mxjeff575 wrote:

This is what I can't get my mind around.  How did they add $2,000,000,000 in debt in 2024?  And what did they spend that on?

That is only $5.48M (million) per day for 2024....Those are rookie numbers.

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sandman768
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1/12/2025 6:22am

Sexton being paid in stock options 😂……in all seriousness, KTM & Sexton just went out and executed amidst all the background noise……Impressive…this would be the perfect time to release a Factory Edition 350SFX! 

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Hammer 663s
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1/12/2025 7:12am
Spoonguy wrote:

Thought you were going to go down that whole tired old "oppressed/oppressor" narrative. Good God that gets weak.

LOL no. I'm from PA too. My old man was a Weatherly coal miner at 12 and my grandpa died of black lung at 68. I...

LOL no. I'm from PA too. My old man was a Weatherly coal miner at 12 and my grandpa died of black lung at 68. I don't play the woe-is-me game. Wink

cwel11 wrote:
No kidding? Never guessed you were a coal cracker! Weatherly less than an hr from us. How’d you end up all the way on the other...

No kidding? Never guessed you were a coal cracker! Weatherly less than an hr from us. How’d you end up all the way on the other side of the country? 

Like a lot of young men in the early 80s recession, I went in the military. 20 years later ended up in NorCal. West coast for me now.

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1/12/2025 10:04am
sandman768 wrote:
Sexton being paid in stock options 😂……in all seriousness, KTM & Sexton just went out and executed amidst all the background noise……Impressive…this would be the perfect...

Sexton being paid in stock options 😂……in all seriousness, KTM & Sexton just went out and executed amidst all the background noise……Impressive…this would be the perfect time to release a Factory Edition 350SFX! 

Story from back in the day—while not MX, there are some parallels.

Back in 2001, I was the team manager and chief tech for the Schwinn Toyota MTB Race Team. Schwinn and GT Bicycles were owned by Questor, a private equity firm. Midway through the season, Schwinn and GT filed for bankruptcy. We found out while at a World Cup race in Japan—our company credit cards stopped working, and our paychecks stopped coming. Despite this, limited funds trickled in to keep the race teams operational (covering lodging, flights, etc.), but lawyers advised us to keep "carrying the flag" by racing in team kits if we wanted any hope of recouping our unpaid salaries when the brands were bought out of bankruptcy.

We still had about two World Cups, two Nationals, and World Championships to finish—completely unpaid. My wife, Leigh Donovan, won a World Cup title and a couple of races that year, while other riders like Alison Dunlap took the World Championship title (and Leigh earned bronze at Worlds). But none of the bonuses were paid.

About 18 months later, we received a settlement—pennies on the dollar for the owed salaries and bonuses. It was surreal to think that the public had little idea of the turmoil behind the scenes as we continued racing and often winning.

I hope for the best for Pierer/KTM/etc.

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sandman768
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1/12/2025 10:12am
Story from back in the day—while not MX, there are some parallels.Back in 2001, I was the team manager and chief tech for the Schwinn Toyota...

Story from back in the day—while not MX, there are some parallels.

Back in 2001, I was the team manager and chief tech for the Schwinn Toyota MTB Race Team. Schwinn and GT Bicycles were owned by Questor, a private equity firm. Midway through the season, Schwinn and GT filed for bankruptcy. We found out while at a World Cup race in Japan—our company credit cards stopped working, and our paychecks stopped coming. Despite this, limited funds trickled in to keep the race teams operational (covering lodging, flights, etc.), but lawyers advised us to keep "carrying the flag" by racing in team kits if we wanted any hope of recouping our unpaid salaries when the brands were bought out of bankruptcy.

We still had about two World Cups, two Nationals, and World Championships to finish—completely unpaid. My wife, Leigh Donovan, won a World Cup title and a couple of races that year, while other riders like Alison Dunlap took the World Championship title (and Leigh earned bronze at Worlds). But none of the bonuses were paid.

About 18 months later, we received a settlement—pennies on the dollar for the owed salaries and bonuses. It was surreal to think that the public had little idea of the turmoil behind the scenes as we continued racing and often winning.

I hope for the best for Pierer/KTM/etc.

Cool story! Sucks you got screwed over…I hope  KTM comes out of this as well, like them or not, they elevated bike technology and losing a major player is never good for our sport….

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Beagle
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1/12/2025 4:01pm

We already knew Bajaj and CFMoto were ready to inject millions to bail out PMG, the 3rd purported investor is FoutainVest, Chinese PE firm.

Cue the alarmists comments about quality going down and all jobs going east. 

Truth is PMG were already increasingly relying on Bajaj and CFMoto to build specific model ranges at lower production costs, so it would just be more of the same. Production for high end bikes will remain in Austria, wake me up when they'll make the SXFs in China or India.

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1
1/12/2025 4:16pm
Beagle wrote:
We already knew Bajaj and CFMoto were ready to inject millions to bail out PMG, the 3rd purported investor is FoutainVest, Chinese PE firm.Cue the alarmists...

We already knew Bajaj and CFMoto were ready to inject millions to bail out PMG, the 3rd purported investor is FoutainVest, Chinese PE firm.

Cue the alarmists comments about quality going down and all jobs going east. 

Truth is PMG were already increasingly relying on Bajaj and CFMoto to build specific model ranges at lower production costs, so it would just be more of the same. Production for high end bikes will remain in Austria, wake me up when they'll make the SXFs in China or India.

Some people won't be happy if a Chinese investment firm buys into Pierer Mobility, but they may already be buying their other products...

tom-hanks-movie-cast-away-wilson-volleyball-story-1637263461-223761307.jpg?VersionId=Ox8NC22pr3UxQKqfmxKsalomon-skier-1704532951

https://fountainvest.com/#/

1
Tim507
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1/12/2025 5:01pm
Beagle wrote:
We already knew Bajaj and CFMoto were ready to inject millions to bail out PMG, the 3rd purported investor is FoutainVest, Chinese PE firm.Cue the alarmists...

We already knew Bajaj and CFMoto were ready to inject millions to bail out PMG, the 3rd purported investor is FoutainVest, Chinese PE firm.

Cue the alarmists comments about quality going down and all jobs going east. 

Truth is PMG were already increasingly relying on Bajaj and CFMoto to build specific model ranges at lower production costs, so it would just be more of the same. Production for high end bikes will remain in Austria, wake me up when they'll make the SXFs in China or India.

Some people won't be happy if a Chinese investment firm buys into Pierer Mobility, but they may already be buying their other products...https://fountainvest.com/#/

Some people won't be happy if a Chinese investment firm buys into Pierer Mobility, but they may already be buying their other products...

tom-hanks-movie-cast-away-wilson-volleyball-story-1637263461-223761307.jpg?VersionId=Ox8NC22pr3UxQKqfmxKsalomon-skier-1704532951

https://fountainvest.com/#/

image 966

 

Hopefully my gut feeling is incorrect, however in the world we all exist in, a firm doesn't get to this size without being totally involved with the game of life🤔

1/12/2025 5:07pm
Beagle wrote:
We already knew Bajaj and CFMoto were ready to inject millions to bail out PMG, the 3rd purported investor is FoutainVest, Chinese PE firm.Cue the alarmists...

We already knew Bajaj and CFMoto were ready to inject millions to bail out PMG, the 3rd purported investor is FoutainVest, Chinese PE firm.

Cue the alarmists comments about quality going down and all jobs going east. 

Truth is PMG were already increasingly relying on Bajaj and CFMoto to build specific model ranges at lower production costs, so it would just be more of the same. Production for high end bikes will remain in Austria, wake me up when they'll make the SXFs in China or India.

Some people won't be happy if a Chinese investment firm buys into Pierer Mobility, but they may already be buying their other products...https://fountainvest.com/#/

Some people won't be happy if a Chinese investment firm buys into Pierer Mobility, but they may already be buying their other products...

tom-hanks-movie-cast-away-wilson-volleyball-story-1637263461-223761307.jpg?VersionId=Ox8NC22pr3UxQKqfmxKsalomon-skier-1704532951

https://fountainvest.com/#/

Tim507 wrote:
 Hopefully my gut feeling is incorrect, however in the world we all exist in, a firm doesn't get to this size without being totally involved with...
image 966

 

Hopefully my gut feeling is incorrect, however in the world we all exist in, a firm doesn't get to this size without being totally involved with the game of life🤔

They are one of many investment firms, getting a return on your 401k!

MxAddic
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1/12/2025 5:10pm Edited Date/Time 1/12/2025 5:51pm

So much for the vitards telling me PE was not interested unless they could 10 times their money fast.

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Tim507
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1/12/2025 5:48pm
Some people won't be happy if a Chinese investment firm buys into Pierer Mobility, but they may already be buying their other products...https://fountainvest.com/#/

Some people won't be happy if a Chinese investment firm buys into Pierer Mobility, but they may already be buying their other products...

tom-hanks-movie-cast-away-wilson-volleyball-story-1637263461-223761307.jpg?VersionId=Ox8NC22pr3UxQKqfmxKsalomon-skier-1704532951

https://fountainvest.com/#/

Tim507 wrote:
 Hopefully my gut feeling is incorrect, however in the world we all exist in, a firm doesn't get to this size without being totally involved with...
image 966

 

Hopefully my gut feeling is incorrect, however in the world we all exist in, a firm doesn't get to this size without being totally involved with the game of life🤔

They are one of many investment firms, getting a return on your 401k!

Does your thought's tie back to our birth certificates and the strawman?

Team403
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1/13/2025 7:59am

Good news it sounds like Rog says NA is profitable - nothing to worry about.  

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Motofinne
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1/13/2025 8:12am Edited Date/Time 1/13/2025 8:14am
Team403 wrote:

Good news it sounds like Rog says NA is profitable - nothing to worry about.  

KTM representatives are able to push out the KTM NA is profitable and a completely separate company narrative and thus not affected in any way since nobody within this industry seems to be interested in learning the very basics of group financials.

Yes, KTM NA is a seperate company and they might be a profitable subsidary. But that doesn't matter when the consolidated group financial statements tell us that the group has billions in debt. All of the PMG subsidiaries are in a vulnerable situation at the moment regardless of their own financial situation.

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indy rider
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1/13/2025 8:29am

Rodger knows exactly how bad the situation is. He also knows he has no responsibility to report honestly on the company's finances.  

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Moto520
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1/13/2025 8:44am Edited Date/Time 1/13/2025 8:52am
Team403 wrote:

Good news it sounds like Rog says NA is profitable - nothing to worry about.  

Motofinne wrote:
KTM representatives are able to push out the KTM NA is profitable and a completely separate company narrative and thus not affected in any way since...

KTM representatives are able to push out the KTM NA is profitable and a completely separate company narrative and thus not affected in any way since nobody within this industry seems to be interested in learning the very basics of group financials.

Yes, KTM NA is a seperate company and they might be a profitable subsidary. But that doesn't matter when the consolidated group financial statements tell us that the group has billions in debt. All of the PMG subsidiaries are in a vulnerable situation at the moment regardless of their own financial situation.

Once the shit hits the fan (not sure how far away we are from that).....the secured creditors will be the first to get whole.  I wouldn't think that there would be anything left after that.  The more i think about it the worse it gets.  If any of you have ever worked for a company that went bankrupt.....holy crap is it stressful.  Sorry to all the moto-brothers that are affected by this.  

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1/13/2025 8:46am
Team403 wrote:

Good news it sounds like Rog says NA is profitable - nothing to worry about.  

Roger is as believable as the Iraqi war reporter who said victory is imminent everyday 

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GrapeApe
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1/13/2025 9:09am
Team403 wrote:

Good news it sounds like Rog says NA is profitable - nothing to worry about.  

When/where did Roger speak? I'd be curious to hear what he says.

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Money
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1/13/2025 9:11am

Mean while rog is making a top 5 450 riders salary while other employees are getting laid off. Makes a lot of sense 

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Team403
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1/13/2025 9:25am Edited Date/Time 1/13/2025 9:26am
Team403 wrote:

Good news it sounds like Rog says NA is profitable - nothing to worry about.  

GrapeApe wrote:

When/where did Roger speak? I'd be curious to hear what he says.

They talked about it on the Pulp A1 review show.  Steve was perturbed that reporters where asking Chase about it and Weege actually had the opposite opinion - KTM NA has done a poor job keeping everyone informed - hence the questions.  

Weege makes a good point - if it was so simple as hey we are NA and profitable don’t worry - why not just offer a press releases as such.

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MxAddic
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1/13/2025 9:29am

Baghdad Bob', meet 'Greenville Tim ...

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wrc777
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1/13/2025 9:40am

KTM NA may be profitable today. If the parent company decides they need to charge more fees to the NA group and/or raise the cost for the bikes they sell to the NA group then that equation could change. Seeing what KTM 2t enduro and XC bikes cost, I can see where KTM NA might be doing much better financially than the parent company. I bet the margins on those 50/65/85 bikes are pretty good too.

mx617
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1/13/2025 9:49am
MPJC wrote:
I'd think it rather expensive to have 3 brands from 3 separate companies instead of one, and to have the same bike basically replicated in each...

I'd think it rather expensive to have 3 brands from 3 separate companies instead of one, and to have the same bike basically replicated in each brand across the whole product line seems utterly ridiculous. You're not going to sell 3 times as many bikes - if you sell more overall at all (they probably do - slightly). You're basically just going to cannibalize sales from your own brands.  

I don't think it would add that much cost. The physical bikes are the same, just different colour plastics. Maybe there are some slight differences here andthere for appearances.  You alreadyhavethe resourcesofktm, not like youhave to starta new departmentfromscratch.  So you'd havealittlebitof accounting and legal, maybe a smidge of engineering.  

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1/13/2025 9:57am
MPJC wrote:
I'd think it rather expensive to have 3 brands from 3 separate companies instead of one, and to have the same bike basically replicated in each...

I'd think it rather expensive to have 3 brands from 3 separate companies instead of one, and to have the same bike basically replicated in each brand across the whole product line seems utterly ridiculous. You're not going to sell 3 times as many bikes - if you sell more overall at all (they probably do - slightly). You're basically just going to cannibalize sales from your own brands.  

mx617 wrote:
I don't think it would add that much cost. The physical bikes are the same, just different colour plastics. Maybe there are some slight differences here...

I don't think it would add that much cost. The physical bikes are the same, just different colour plastics. Maybe there are some slight differences here andthere for appearances.  You alreadyhavethe resourcesofktm, not like youhave to starta new departmentfromscratch.  So you'd havealittlebitof accounting and legal, maybe a smidge of engineering.  

Marketing and racing for 3 different brands all selling the same thing add considerably to the cost of doing business.

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