How did Triumph get it so right?

EAmato88
Posts
564
Joined
1/23/2019
Location
Egg Harbor City, NJ US
10/10/2024 4:40am

The only thing theyre doing wrong is commanding a HEFTY price tag on a bike that everyone is unsure of. Lots of people would like to try one but why spend 10,000+ when you can buy a more than proven Japanese bike and save 2k? I have only seen one in person and we live in a very motocross driven area, plus travel the entire GNCC circuit. 

2
10/10/2024 4:51am

What does their enduro bike have that's different from their moto bike? I couldn't find much info

1
TeamGreen
Posts
36534
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA US
10/10/2024 5:37am
Pop Shmoke wrote:
As they say K.I.S.S.- keep it simple stupid. At this point a motocross bike is a known commodity/entity. Theyre not at the bleeding edge of engineering/technology/manufacturing...

As they say K.I.S.S.- keep it simple stupid. At this point a motocross bike is a known commodity/entity. Theyre not at the bleeding edge of engineering/technology/manufacturing like aerospace, semiconductors, rocketry…etc. There was a time where having roller rockers on your single cam 450 was bleeding edge, not so much anymore. On dohc 250’s the move to finger followers has come to almost all bikes at this point. Even the center port exhaust just recently has come to almost all of the aluminum framed bikes in the last 3ish years. Everybody knows what makes a good bike right now. 

In order to make an sx/mx winning 250 you know what it needs to have. It needs to be a high revving screamer so it needs a wide piston with a short stroke… eg: an over square engine with roughly a 2:1 bore stroke ratio. You can play with this a bit for example yamaha is a little bit closer to 1:1 than ktm which gives it a longer stroke and smaller piston which gives it more torque. It needs to have dual overhead cams to feed air to this high revving engine, those cams need to be actuated by finger followers which allow for more aggressive tuning. The air going to those cams needs to come as straight as possible from the airbox in a downdraft intake and leave the cams from a center port exhaust. It needs to be high compression which means getting close to 14/1…… and many more things. 

I think the real challenge for triumph will be gaining marketshare over the more established bikes. That being said making a high quality product right out the gate is a good way to start. 

Hey. Wait a second…

Were we just called stupid? 🤣

1
1
TeamGreen
Posts
36534
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA US
10/10/2024 5:38am

What does their enduro bike have that's different from their moto bike? I couldn't find much info

Well, I…for one…hope it’s a 6 speed! 💪🏻

3
1

The Shop

EAmato88
Posts
564
Joined
1/23/2019
Location
Egg Harbor City, NJ US
10/10/2024 5:52am

What does their enduro bike have that's different from their moto bike? I couldn't find much info

thats because they dont have an enduro bike yet. Walker is riding a tf250x set up for enduro

2
DoctorJD
Posts
2967
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Somewhere in..., GA US
10/10/2024 6:04am

Because they made a black ktm

There it is.

5
1
Spoonguy
Posts
3352
Joined
2/28/2022
Location
Mc Kean, PA US
10/10/2024 6:08am
You would think KTM got it right, but we are seeing them losing money. Big money. We can only say Triumph got it right when it (the...

You would think KTM got it right, but we are seeing them losing money. Big money. 

We can only say Triumph got it right when it (the Off-Road line of bikes) is making profit. 

Up to now I don’t see many of them at the track. Nor do I see/hear many people saying they “really want one”. 
Nor have I read magazines testing it saying it’s revolutionary and we all need one to go faster. 

I’ll save judgement on whether they got it right, it’s still very very early days. 

 

KTM are losing money because they've spread themselves very thin, and the MotoGP program is a financial black hole and a hiding to nothing against the...

KTM are losing money because they've spread themselves very thin, and the MotoGP program is a financial black hole and a hiding to nothing against the Ducatis. Triumph has succeeded (so far) because they've put a lot of time and effort into one bike and got it close to perfect before moving onto the next one. It's pretty much how they got their road bikes off the ground years ago so they knew how to approach this too.

Not certain, but Red Bull bankrolls KTM's road racing. I also this they are still profitable, just not to the same extant.

1
Goon645
Posts
358
Joined
10/3/2019
Location
Pyramid Valley AQ
Fantasy
10/10/2024 6:08am Edited Date/Time 10/10/2024 6:09am

Seemed pretty ready to me on Saturday 

IMG 2807
10
10/10/2024 8:10am
Spoonguy wrote:

Not certain, but Red Bull bankrolls KTM's road racing. I also this they are still profitable, just not to the same extant.

I think it was Roadracing  world or crash.net that said KTM does the development on the MotoGP side and Redbull pays to go racing. It's definitely going to be interesting on all racing fronts with the Austrian group going forward. They almost took it to Ducati last week so they are getting there on the pavement. 

HonDawg17
Posts
3738
Joined
2/8/2014
Location
Louisville, KY US
Fantasy
10/10/2024 8:17am

As for all the guys hating on my take. You're literally confirming what I said. Not saying Ferry was a big loss to the team as far as his talent and results go. And Savatgy left because of the 450 problem. He was lied to by Triumph on time frame for the 450. They're not technically undisclosed reasons, but we'll never know the true story for both riders for a few years. Savatgy could have easily ran the 250 in 450SX. Its not a disadvantage in SX. On paper 2 multi-year contracted guys left their contracts early, Not a good look. Bikes failing multiple times during Motocross. Probably rider error, but still a problem for USA only?..

29
LungButter
Posts
8684
Joined
1/9/2016
Location
Yellow Pine, ID US
10/10/2024 9:11am

Because they made a black ktm

DoctorJD wrote:

There it is.

Can you please show us a KTM with an Aluminum frame and KYB Suspension....I'll wait.

14
1
HonDawg17
Posts
3738
Joined
2/8/2014
Location
Louisville, KY US
Fantasy
10/10/2024 9:22am
LungButter wrote:

Can you please show us a KTM with an Aluminum frame and KYB Suspension....I'll wait.

See above...the Bike with a #4 on it...

2
32
LungButter
Posts
8684
Joined
1/9/2016
Location
Yellow Pine, ID US
10/10/2024 9:24am Edited Date/Time 10/10/2024 9:34am
HonDawg17 wrote:

See above...the Bike with a #4 on it...

That's a Triumph.

But since you are clearly the smartest guy in the room on this, please let me know exactly what parts on that bike are from a KTM.  Be specific and complete.  You've spouted off multiple times about this and always claim to be the smartest guy in the room so don't shy away from proving it.

If you can't provide this, then man up and admit you have been just running your mouth and don't actually have a clue.

Balls in your court dawg....we wait.

19
1
Steve125
Posts
1409
Joined
11/24/2010
Location
CT US
10/10/2024 9:42am

They were in a must situation.

8
OFalk280
Posts
310
Joined
6/27/2012
Location
Elwood, IL US
10/10/2024 9:55am
HonDawg17 wrote:

See above...the Bike with a #4 on it...

LungButter wrote:
That's a Triumph.But since you are clearly the smartest guy in the room on this, please let me know exactly what parts on that bike are...

That's a Triumph.

But since you are clearly the smartest guy in the room on this, please let me know exactly what parts on that bike are from a KTM.  Be specific and complete.  You've spouted off multiple times about this and always claim to be the smartest guy in the room so don't shy away from proving it.

If you can't provide this, then man up and admit you have been just running your mouth and don't actually have a clue.

Balls in your court dawg....we wait.

Kinda strange for him to constantly mouth off about it being a black KTM when KTM parts won’t bolt on to it. I guess they did such a poor job and making a KTM that it no longer is one😉

12
1
10/10/2024 10:01am

They started the design with the footrests...

1
Tim507
Posts
3472
Joined
6/8/2010
Location
Oregon City, OR US
10/10/2024 10:46am
LungButter wrote:

Can you please show us a KTM with an Aluminum frame and KYB Suspension....I'll wait.

HonDawg17 wrote:

See above...the Bike with a #4 on it...

I've ridden KTM's for nearly 20 years plus and now have a Triumph.

It is not even a KTM. For all the obvous reasons and it has been stated previously that most motors are functioning very similar. Why re-invent the wheel.

9
1
mooch
Posts
1754
Joined
2/16/2008
Location
OH US
Fantasy
10/10/2024 12:01pm
HonDawg17 wrote:

See above...the Bike with a #4 on it...

LungButter wrote:
That's a Triumph.But since you are clearly the smartest guy in the room on this, please let me know exactly what parts on that bike are...

That's a Triumph.

But since you are clearly the smartest guy in the room on this, please let me know exactly what parts on that bike are from a KTM.  Be specific and complete.  You've spouted off multiple times about this and always claim to be the smartest guy in the room so don't shy away from proving it.

If you can't provide this, then man up and admit you have been just running your mouth and don't actually have a clue.

Balls in your court dawg....we wait.

He can't really have the high number of ridiculously bad opinions that he posts here. 

Seems he just enjoys posting things that he thinks will irritate folks.  Troll with nothing better to do than to think up oddball / irritating stuff to post.

7
2
Flatliner
Posts
4069
Joined
11/3/2009
Location
CA
10/10/2024 12:27pm

Is the 250 really priced 2k higher than the japanese bikes?

pops
Posts
260
Joined
1/3/2019
Location
Richards, MO US
10/10/2024 12:56pm
HonDawg17 wrote:

See above...the Bike with a #4 on it...

LungButter wrote:
That's a Triumph.But since you are clearly the smartest guy in the room on this, please let me know exactly what parts on that bike are...

That's a Triumph.

But since you are clearly the smartest guy in the room on this, please let me know exactly what parts on that bike are from a KTM.  Be specific and complete.  You've spouted off multiple times about this and always claim to be the smartest guy in the room so don't shy away from proving it.

If you can't provide this, then man up and admit you have been just running your mouth and don't actually have a clue.

Balls in your court dawg....we wait.

mooch wrote:
He can't really have the high number of ridiculously bad opinions that he posts here. Seems he just enjoys posting things that he thinks will irritate folks...

He can't really have the high number of ridiculously bad opinions that he posts here. 

Seems he just enjoys posting things that he thinks will irritate folks.  Troll with nothing better to do than to think up oddball / irritating stuff to post.

He really is that stupid!!!!

7
2
Pop Shmoke
Posts
1764
Joined
6/17/2020
Location
Boston, MA US
10/10/2024 1:12pm
Pop Shmoke wrote:
As they say K.I.S.S.- keep it simple stupid. At this point a motocross bike is a known commodity/entity. Theyre not at the bleeding edge of engineering/technology/manufacturing...

As they say K.I.S.S.- keep it simple stupid. At this point a motocross bike is a known commodity/entity. Theyre not at the bleeding edge of engineering/technology/manufacturing like aerospace, semiconductors, rocketry…etc. There was a time where having roller rockers on your single cam 450 was bleeding edge, not so much anymore. On dohc 250’s the move to finger followers has come to almost all bikes at this point. Even the center port exhaust just recently has come to almost all of the aluminum framed bikes in the last 3ish years. Everybody knows what makes a good bike right now. 

In order to make an sx/mx winning 250 you know what it needs to have. It needs to be a high revving screamer so it needs a wide piston with a short stroke… eg: an over square engine with roughly a 2:1 bore stroke ratio. You can play with this a bit for example yamaha is a little bit closer to 1:1 than ktm which gives it a longer stroke and smaller piston which gives it more torque. It needs to have dual overhead cams to feed air to this high revving engine, those cams need to be actuated by finger followers which allow for more aggressive tuning. The air going to those cams needs to come as straight as possible from the airbox in a downdraft intake and leave the cams from a center port exhaust. It needs to be high compression which means getting close to 14/1…… and many more things. 

I think the real challenge for triumph will be gaining marketshare over the more established bikes. That being said making a high quality product right out the gate is a good way to start. 

TeamGreen wrote:

Hey. Wait a second…

Were we just called stupid? 🤣

No lol

HonDawg17
Posts
3738
Joined
2/8/2014
Location
Louisville, KY US
Fantasy
10/10/2024 1:34pm
HonDawg17 wrote:

See above...the Bike with a #4 on it...

LungButter wrote:
That's a Triumph.But since you are clearly the smartest guy in the room on this, please let me know exactly what parts on that bike are...

That's a Triumph.

But since you are clearly the smartest guy in the room on this, please let me know exactly what parts on that bike are from a KTM.  Be specific and complete.  You've spouted off multiple times about this and always claim to be the smartest guy in the room so don't shy away from proving it.

If you can't provide this, then man up and admit you have been just running your mouth and don't actually have a clue.

Balls in your court dawg....we wait.

Never once have I stated  I'm the "smartest guy in the room". You've clearly assumed that. I might be one of the bigger smartasses... But We all know KTM Group and Triumph have mutual investors and companies that work together. Christ just look at the bike. Nearly everything is a carbon copy of a KTM.. I don't need to justify my thoughts on the similarity, its literally right in front of you. Gonna be really funny when all the aftermarket exhaust systems come out and add TF250X to the same part number as 250SXF, FC250, MC250...

1
29
LungButter
Posts
8684
Joined
1/9/2016
Location
Yellow Pine, ID US
10/10/2024 2:09pm
HonDawg17 wrote:
Never once have I stated  I'm the "smartest guy in the room". You've clearly assumed that. I might be one of the bigger smartasses... But We...

Never once have I stated  I'm the "smartest guy in the room". You've clearly assumed that. I might be one of the bigger smartasses... But We all know KTM Group and Triumph have mutual investors and companies that work together. Christ just look at the bike. Nearly everything is a carbon copy of a KTM.. I don't need to justify my thoughts on the similarity, its literally right in front of you. Gonna be really funny when all the aftermarket exhaust systems come out and add TF250X to the same part number as 250SXF, FC250, MC250...

"Nearly everything is a carbon copy"

Like what?

Should be pretty easy to list a few things if that's the case....

Is the frame a carbon copy?

The body work?

The suspension?

The swing arm?

The triple clamps?

The air box?

The subframe?

5
1
kelso.184
Posts
68
Joined
10/18/2017
Location
AU
10/10/2024 2:40pm

What does their enduro bike have that's different from their moto bike? I couldn't find much info

In the Johny Walker video on his YouTube he mentioned riding it and how great it was. I dont know much about it at all other then it is not the same bike so I guess its going to be similar to the WR and YZF setup where they are similar but not the same bikes with just different maps and wheels and a light

10/10/2024 2:48pm Edited Date/Time 10/10/2024 2:58pm

Are there any pics of Forkner’s bike?

1
1911
Posts
4953
Joined
4/2/2008
Location
LAS VEGAS, NV US
10/10/2024 2:55pm

What does their enduro bike have that's different from their moto bike? I couldn't find much info

TeamGreen wrote:

Well, I…for one…hope it’s a 6 speed! 💪🏻

And a 3.5 or 4 gallon fuel tank!

lumpy790
Posts
11242
Joined
9/18/2007
Location
York, SC US
10/10/2024 2:56pm

IMO This has been in the design process for roughly 3-5 years before they even approached the Goat to sign on with a bike to test. 

They took all the 450’s designs and took all of their best things to start aiming for final designs product that met them all.

They just dont have the 450 production ready for the 2025 seasons start. Will they launch it next year probably. They will probably have on at the MC Industry’s trade show AIMExpo next February just like they did with the 250

1
RACING
Posts
1728
Joined
6/9/2023
Location
Waddafeuque FR
10/10/2024 2:56pm

By having no pride, no creativity and copying.

Not worse than that ugly CRF knockoff looking Ducati.

Neither of them have one bit of brand personality, which is a shame for brands who have real original and unique road bikes.

1
17
HonDawg17
Posts
3738
Joined
2/8/2014
Location
Louisville, KY US
Fantasy
10/10/2024 2:58pm

yUo gUyS aRe RigHt...tHe dEsIgNs aRe CoMpLeTeLy DiFfErEnT.....

The Designs:

Screenshot 2024-10-10 164147250SXF-LHScreenshot 2024-10-10 164233.png?VersionId=GVKWCEQiZloubhQiKtoVZ29sNPtkWlb250SXF-RH.jpg?VersionId=
23
Flatliner
Posts
4069
Joined
11/3/2009
Location
CA
10/10/2024 3:02pm
RACING wrote:
By having no pride, no creativity and copying.Not worse than that ugly CRF knockoff looking Ducati.Neither of them have one bit of brand personality, which is...

By having no pride, no creativity and copying.

Not worse than that ugly CRF knockoff looking Ducati.

Neither of them have one bit of brand personality, which is a shame for brands who have real original and unique road bikes.

Two things,  the duc motor is different than anything else running.

 

Also, even though I view the aprillia mx450 as amazing, going against the grain didn't work with that bike.

3

Post a reply to: How did Triumph get it so right?

The Latest