Prado opinion about the lappers

soyMotero
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8/21/2024 7:32am
ajv#26 wrote:
"My goal right now is to start first and stay in that position, which is my tactic. And I hope at places like this, I hope...

"My goal right now is to start first and stay in that position, which is my tactic. And I hope at places like this, I hope to pass the lappers easier. I think it is not normal we see lappers two or three times in one moto. I don’t think in any championship. We race a World championship, but I raced the Spanish championship at the start of the year, and I think I lapped everyone, maybe two times, but here it is the same and we need to lap two or three times, the same guy. It is embarrassing for us, and it makes I dangerous and I hope somebody makes action on that, because with lappers are all over the place. Lap them once and they should go out, or something like this. It is good we have full gates, but not riders 30 or 40 seconds slower, sorry."

"Lap them once and they should go out" If he thinks so, someone might have to think again what to do next year... IMG-20240821-WA0028.jpg?VersionId=etCOdgR6hdJh1hN0 NA2.6owycQm Seriously, as a Spaniard, he makes it really hard to root for him, he really likes to say things like this, and, unlike the MXGP media/athomsphere/fanbase, things like this will not go unnoticed and it could Backfire him if he doesn't back it up. 

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philG
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8/21/2024 7:56am
CEMX182 wrote:

conversation we should have, but people do not want to:

107% rule should exist AT LEAST for 450's.

Work out what that is, and think what a 15 rider gate will look like.

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8/21/2024 8:02am
VITAL- "We need full gates!!"Also VITAL- "Get those slow guys off the track, they arent 'in' the race" WTF...?Leave em in it- navigating lapped traffic is part...

VITAL- "We need full gates!!"

Also VITAL- "Get those slow guys off the track, they arent 'in' the race"
 

WTF...?

Leave em in it- navigating lapped traffic is part & parcel of the competition. Its just another obstacle for the best riders to be better at. If someone else is better at it than you, so be it. Get better or lose. Same with any obstacle.

You guys will be calling for anti-wheelie devices off the start gate next... oh wait....

Idk why you expect consistency on this site, like there's ever been a thread where everyone agrees on something. 

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CEMX182
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8/21/2024 8:30am
CEMX182 wrote:

conversation we should have, but people do not want to:

107% rule should exist AT LEAST for 450's.

philG wrote:

Work out what that is, and think what a 15 rider gate will look like.

on a personal level, I genuinely have no problem with that as long as it aids in the pedigree & perception of the sport. Indoors or Out. The whole "argument" against WMX back in the day was, "- barring Ashley, Tarah, Sarah, JP - it just looks bad because the gap is sooo big." It's genuinely that. It's the same thing? I'd even go as far as saying there are moments it looks like LMP3 / Dentists in IMSA haha

+ a Third class, cut down race length or go back to a two-day. Naturally, you would have to drop it back to 130% or something to reach a 15 man gate. But either relegating the rest OR already having them slated for the 3rd class. Something that would give that group from 16th-50th (in Qualifying) a consistent place where they can get a greater opportunity for racing visibility, (by perspective) it would make it look a lot more dynamic, incentivize fans to stand along the fences longer, give a larger forum for the more personality-driven athletes a place to get results / screen time, etc.

I don't know, just some random thoughts for a Wednesday morning.

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The Shop

8/21/2024 9:53am
ajv#26 wrote:
"My goal right now is to start first and stay in that position, which is my tactic. And I hope at places like this, I hope...

"My goal right now is to start first and stay in that position, which is my tactic. And I hope at places like this, I hope to pass the lappers easier. I think it is not normal we see lappers two or three times in one moto. I don’t think in any championship. We race a World championship, but I raced the Spanish championship at the start of the year, and I think I lapped everyone, maybe two times, but here it is the same and we need to lap two or three times, the same guy. It is embarrassing for us, and it makes I dangerous and I hope somebody makes action on that, because with lappers are all over the place. Lap them once and they should go out, or something like this. It is good we have full gates, but not riders 30 or 40 seconds slower, sorry."

soyMotero wrote:
"Lap them once and they should go out" If he thinks so, someone might have to think again what to do next year... Seriously, as a...

"Lap them once and they should go out" If he thinks so, someone might have to think again what to do next year... IMG-20240821-WA0028.jpg?VersionId=etCOdgR6hdJh1hN0 NA2.6owycQm Seriously, as a Spaniard, he makes it really hard to root for him, he really likes to say things like this, and, unlike the MXGP media/athomsphere/fanbase, things like this will not go unnoticed and it could Backfire him if he doesn't back it up. 

Reason most spanish fans root for ruben. I hope gets smoked in SX.

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msp332
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8/21/2024 11:40am
msp332 wrote:
This. Road racing does this to keep the field full but cut down lappers. The % over varies but the idea is the same.40 riders is...

This. Road racing does this to keep the field full but cut down lappers. The % over varies but the idea is the same.

40 riders is too many with 2 minute laptimes and 18 laps. There's a race going on and they're not in it.

How do MXGP fans feel about spectating 40-rider gates versus 30? What benefit does it have for fans on tv or in person?

Tumic wrote:
The 40 vs 30 does nothing for a fan watching the race on tv. Guys outside the top 15 get zero tv time after they have...

The 40 vs 30 does nothing for a fan watching the race on tv. Guys outside the top 15 get zero tv time after they have passed the first turn when it comes to the racing.

The next time we will see them is when they getting in the way for the leaders and messes up the good racing.

But i don’t think that the slowest lappers is the problem here, it is the ones that have energy left to race, that are in a group that battles and don’t understand that the leaders are trying to pass them.

In that case the riders need to understand that their race is not as important as the leaders and get out of the way. So i think that the 15-20th place lappers often cause more problems than the 20-40th.

But positions 30-40 still get in the way being lapped, and create more confusion when going multiple laps down. Recall the Houston supercross where Wilson was getting the blue flag but thought is was for another rider who was going 2 laps down, ultimately resulting in blocking Roczen who immediately got passed by Webb for the win. They also add to the risk of first turn/lap crashes and battling with elite riders who could instead be battling with other elite riders.

I don't think eliminating lappers is realistic, but taking away the slowest 25% would reduce lappers by - rough estimate because I don't know who is still circulating at the end - 50% of leaders passing a lapper. The confusion and risk is not proportional. As you say the racers getting lapped the first time and the end of the moto may individually be more of a problem, but easy problems can be solved by removing riders before the start.

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8/21/2024 11:44am

Privateers getting sponsorship is hard enough, i cant imagine a sponsor would be happy getting less value if the have to pull off.

For most privateers, the only exposure they get is whist being actually lapped.

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msp332
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8/21/2024 11:53am
CEMX182 wrote:

conversation we should have, but people do not want to:

107% rule should exist AT LEAST for 450's.

philG wrote:

Work out what that is, and think what a 15 rider gate will look like.

MotoAmerica alters the max % over fastest qualifier by class. Easy adjustment, same concept.

Alternatively, we have decades of laptime data to see what would make more sense for a starting number, rather than just filling the gate because that's what they've always done. Seems like the Australian method of sending breakdancers to the Olympics.

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8/21/2024 12:21pm
VITAL- "We need full gates!!"Also VITAL- "Get those slow guys off the track, they arent 'in' the race" WTF...?Leave em in it- navigating lapped traffic is part...

VITAL- "We need full gates!!"

Also VITAL- "Get those slow guys off the track, they arent 'in' the race"
 

WTF...?

Leave em in it- navigating lapped traffic is part & parcel of the competition. Its just another obstacle for the best riders to be better at. If someone else is better at it than you, so be it. Get better or lose. Same with any obstacle.

You guys will be calling for anti-wheelie devices off the start gate next... oh wait....

Idk why you expect consistency on this site, like there's ever been a thread where everyone agrees on something. 

I don’t expect consistency. However I do expect sound logic.

VHM
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8/21/2024 12:40pm

Lappers? There's only a dozen or so guys in a MXGP race so how many lappers can there be realistically?

Skjermbilde 2024-08-21 213418
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VHM
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8/21/2024 12:43pm
soyMotero wrote:
"Lap them once and they should go out" If he thinks so, someone might have to think again what to do next year... Seriously, as a...

"Lap them once and they should go out" If he thinks so, someone might have to think again what to do next year... IMG-20240821-WA0028.jpg?VersionId=etCOdgR6hdJh1hN0 NA2.6owycQm Seriously, as a Spaniard, he makes it really hard to root for him, he really likes to say things like this, and, unlike the MXGP media/athomsphere/fanbase, things like this will not go unnoticed and it could Backfire him if he doesn't back it up. 

I guess he was thinking about outdoor and not SX, 2 minutes VS 1 minute lap times.

NV825
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8/21/2024 1:10pm

I think some sort of mid-race "cut" would be beneficial, but one big issue I could see is that the riders are really hard to identify in severe mud races. Most can't be distinguished until they ride past so you can see the name/number on the back of the jersey if that isn't caked with mud too.  

aees
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8/21/2024 2:45pm
yak651 wrote:
Lapped before the 20 minute mark you get pulled. If you can stay on the lead lap for that long you earned the right to fight...

Lapped before the 20 minute mark you get pulled. If you can stay on the lead lap for that long you earned the right to fight for your position the remaining time left in the moto. Pay points to all finishing riders to gain incentive to work on speed/endurance to race all moto

So only one rider should get points?

Either if you get lapped before a certain time in the race, or make it a cut off time and position instead.

Like 20min in, only top 20 will remain. It will be a race within the race to get to top before the mark. You could use a simple light on the bar to indicate if you are inside or outside the cut off. 

aees
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8/21/2024 2:46pm
NV825 wrote:
I think some sort of mid-race "cut" would be beneficial, but one big issue I could see is that the riders are really hard to identify...

I think some sort of mid-race "cut" would be beneficial, but one big issue I could see is that the riders are really hard to identify in severe mud races. Most can't be distinguished until they ride past so you can see the name/number on the back of the jersey if that isn't caked with mud too.  

Light on bar. If it's red, you will need to pull off when the 20min flagg is thrown. 

Radical
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8/21/2024 5:14pm

I say leave it all alone.  People will be complaining about the exact same thing 20 years from now, but if you make the top 40 you've earned the right to race.

 

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ando
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8/21/2024 5:20pm

As a TV spectator having only 20 riders would make zero difference.  The only way I know that anyone is from 21st and back is from the panel on the broadcast.

We already have 22 riders in SX.

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2
8/21/2024 6:51pm
CEMX182 wrote:

conversation we should have, but people do not want to:

107% rule should exist AT LEAST for 450's.

philG wrote:

Work out what that is, and think what a 15 rider gate will look like.

msp332 wrote:
MotoAmerica alters the max % over fastest qualifier by class. Easy adjustment, same concept.Alternatively, we have decades of laptime data to see what would make more...

MotoAmerica alters the max % over fastest qualifier by class. Easy adjustment, same concept.

Alternatively, we have decades of laptime data to see what would make more sense for a starting number, rather than just filling the gate because that's what they've always done. Seems like the Australian method of sending breakdancers to the Olympics.

Breakdancing is a joke, that's why we sent her!

1
1
earlshive418
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8/21/2024 6:57pm

I can’t wait to hear what he bitches about when he’s getting his dick kicked in by Jett, Hunter and Chase. 

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plowboy
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8/22/2024 5:35am

I hope people realise that not a small portion of the spectators/campers are family/friends of those lappers.  That's a hit to the pocketbook if they are gone.

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1
8/22/2024 8:43am

The answer is obvious, 40 is just too many riders nowadays. 
 

The pro nationals need to be pro, so maybe 20 on the gate. Then the privateers need to be a feeder support class, with the goal of moving up into the 20 pro race.

Mixing amateurs into elites is daft & not fair on either competing. 
 

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Beagle
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8/22/2024 8:51am Edited Date/Time 8/22/2024 8:51am
plowboy wrote:
I hope people realise that not a small portion of the spectators/campers are family/friends of those lappers.  That's a hit to the pocketbook if they are...

I hope people realise that not a small portion of the spectators/campers are family/friends of those lappers.  That's a hit to the pocketbook if they are gone.

To be fair he's not talking about all lappers but riders being lapped 2 or 3 times. 

He's also stating that it doesn't happen as much in other series, compared to MXGP. 

For instance at Budds creek that would have only been a couple of riders instead of 6.

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Not hillbilly
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8/22/2024 10:20am

I’m okay with “lapped twice, black flag”… I also support “get lapped once, have a seat.” I would rather watch 10 racers actually battle on the same lap than 10 battling through a minefield of 30 slower riders. Let the slower pros have their own race.

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8/22/2024 11:27am
Marco15UK wrote:

I've always thought cross jumping was more dangerous than lappers to be honest, don't expect him to mention that though

Classic whataboutism.  

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8/22/2024 11:34am

I think something that might be lost on some of you is a feeder class class could provide bloody good racing, at the moment we don’t generally appreciate or get to see some of the privateer battles, if 20-40 had their own gate, combine the 250 & 450 but score separately, we would get to see another class of racing & no doubt some good racing.

The main pro class would be better racing aswell as less hazards to negotiate from half way. 

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plowboy
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8/22/2024 11:39am
I’m okay with “lapped twice, black flag”… I also support “get lapped once, have a seat.” I would rather watch 10 racers actually battle on the...

I’m okay with “lapped twice, black flag”… I also support “get lapped once, have a seat.” I would rather watch 10 racers actually battle on the same lap than 10 battling through a minefield of 30 slower riders. Let the slower pros have their own race.

Ohhh the horror.  How did any of the top riders survive through the amature ranks?  

Lapping a rider is no more dangerous than any other part of the sport.  Prado comes from the GP's...not many...if any privateers can afford that game.  

I guess if people want to replicate the GP's...whatever.🤐

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disbanded
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8/22/2024 11:50am

I can’t wait to hear what he bitches about when he’s getting his dick kicked in by Jett, Hunter and Chase. 

They can only pass him on the left

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msp332
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8/22/2024 12:19pm
plowboy wrote:
I hope people realise that not a small portion of the spectators/campers are family/friends of those lappers.  That's a hit to the pocketbook if they are...

I hope people realise that not a small portion of the spectators/campers are family/friends of those lappers.  That's a hit to the pocketbook if they are gone.

21st place isn't making a living at this let alone 31st place. It doesn't make sense to string them along just to include them in the show by being lapped multiple times every moto. I'd rather those spectators support local pro races where their family/friends do better financially.

A battle for 31st place should never be in the way of a $1M title or $100K race win.

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Not hillbilly
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8/22/2024 12:56pm
I’m okay with “lapped twice, black flag”… I also support “get lapped once, have a seat.” I would rather watch 10 racers actually battle on the...

I’m okay with “lapped twice, black flag”… I also support “get lapped once, have a seat.” I would rather watch 10 racers actually battle on the same lap than 10 battling through a minefield of 30 slower riders. Let the slower pros have their own race.

plowboy wrote:
Ohhh the horror.  How did any of the top riders survive through the amature ranks?  Lapping a rider is no more dangerous than any other part...

Ohhh the horror.  How did any of the top riders survive through the amature ranks?  

Lapping a rider is no more dangerous than any other part of the sport.  Prado comes from the GP's...not many...if any privateers can afford that game.  

I guess if people want to replicate the GP's...whatever.🤐

My interest has less to do with safety and more to do with spectating ease. The fact that we even have to have leader lights is damning

plowboy
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8/22/2024 1:28pm
plowboy wrote:
I hope people realise that not a small portion of the spectators/campers are family/friends of those lappers.  That's a hit to the pocketbook if they are...

I hope people realise that not a small portion of the spectators/campers are family/friends of those lappers.  That's a hit to the pocketbook if they are gone.

msp332 wrote:
21st place isn't making a living at this let alone 31st place. It doesn't make sense to string them along just to include them in the...

21st place isn't making a living at this let alone 31st place. It doesn't make sense to string them along just to include them in the show by being lapped multiple times every moto. I'd rather those spectators support local pro races where their family/friends do better financially.

A battle for 31st place should never be in the way of a $1M title or $100K race win.

I have no heartache with pulling riders that ignore the blue flags.  They should address this protocol before trying to re-invent the wheel.

I'm old so tradition still means something to me.  I won't apologize for it.  If passing lappers was significantly more DANGEROUS than any other aspect of the sport then I'd jump on the bandwagon...but even my slow, never was, ass...worried more about passing for the lead than getting around lappers.

One of the things that has always made American moto so compelling is the "every man" aspect.  Give me a break...I'm still not over them cutting the motos from 40 minutes.🙃

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8/22/2024 3:16pm
Radical wrote:
I say leave it all alone.  People will be complaining about the exact same thing 20 years from now, but if you make the top 40...

I say leave it all alone.  People will be complaining about the exact same thing 20 years from now, but if you make the top 40 you've earned the right to race.

 

I would counter that if you’re getting lapped 2+ times you’re not actually racing

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