AMA Penalty PALA 250 Class - Let's hear it, Why 16 and NOT 38?

MxAddic
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5/27/2024 10:24am
mx317 wrote:
Fans don’t really have a choice but to “have it”. They may not buy it, but it is what they say it is whether we agree...

Fans don’t really have a choice but to “have it”. They may not buy it, but it is what they say it is whether we agree or not. 

The fans are not the only problem the AMA has. A bunch of guys that cut checks for millions of dollars and allow AMA Pro Racing employees to receive paychecks get to "have it" as well. Is the AMA going to turn their backs on all those folks because of the heat it will bring from Brian?

I rewatched Tom go off track and there was zero difference between what he and Dangerboy did other than someone claims to have measure fractions of a second somehow. He gained so much of an advantage he got passed 2 turns later.

Am I the only one that noticed nobody on the broadcast will call him Dangerboy anymore?

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1
holeshot413
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5/27/2024 1:57pm

Easy fix!

if you exit the track 

you must re enter where you exited PERIOD 

right DC

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MxAddic
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5/27/2024 4:09pm
soggy wrote:

Vialle accelerated, Deegan didn’t. 

Lol! .

 

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5

The Shop

brocster
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5/27/2024 8:14pm
MxAddic wrote:
Lol! .  

Lol! .

 

-MAVERICK- wrote:

Laughing

image 187

Would be better if that were a picture of a donkey!

9
5/27/2024 8:51pm

id love to be at the riders meeting next week if anyone asks what they have to do if they go off the track, 

4
Tyler D
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5/27/2024 11:21pm Edited Date/Time 5/27/2024 11:21pm

The ama is burdening themselves by offering to break out the stopwatch everytime an excursion occurs. They can't possibly check splits for every incident. This is not a sustainable standard. Brightline rule please. Geniuses. 

 

Also deegan has never had any qualms about missing sections of track. The same rules don't apply to him and the ama seems happy to oblige. 

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1
ando
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5/28/2024 1:05am

It's interesting reading the rules.  It seems to be more about safety than advantage on the track, but maybe that's not the AMA interpretation.

2
Question
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5/28/2024 1:17am Edited Date/Time 5/28/2024 2:59am
CPR wrote:

Not to mention deegan wouldn’t have been able to clear that jump while re entering the track without accelerating, which would have lost him time 

Question wrote:
I would say that it was safer to accelerate enough to make the jump as usual, instead of potentially being landed on. So for me that...

I would say that it was safer to accelerate enough to make the jump as usual, instead of potentially being landed on. So for me that is a pass. It was a bit severe on Vialle though, but apparently he made time so it is quite fair, and anyway, back not so long ago it was "enter where you left" so nowadays they are already lucky.

Instead of editing, I quote myself to correct what i wrote after rewatching the incidents. I was talking about the 2nd moto and for sure Deegs should have got docked 1 position in moto 1. It would have changed nothing on the overall with a 2-1 so I do not understand why they did nothing too. 

5
stewie94
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5/28/2024 2:31am

Easy fix!

if you exit the track 

you must re enter where you exited PERIOD 

right DC

yal be getting them boiis confused , DC doesn’t make the rules , ur comment should be directed towards the AMA & mike pelletier ( excuse me if i misspelled the last name ) 

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Radical
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5/28/2024 2:55am

Vialle made a good point in the post race conference.  If you don't gain a position, he feels there should be no penalty.

According the rules, here's my take.

Vialle went off the track, and accelerated the entire stretch, as if he was still on the track.  He didn't slow down whatsoever.  For this, he deserves a penalty.

Deegan on this same stretch:  There was a small amount of roost at first, but it was obvious he had slowed down considerably.  H then slowed a lot, and looked over to make sure the track was clear.  As he entered the track, and maybe 10 feet prior, he accelerated.  Since he slowed down intentionally, I don't see where this breaks the rules.  It's quite different than how Vialle rode this section.  I don't see how this breaks the actual rules.

Deegan's going off the track in the second Turn:  Deagan was railing the outside, and the berm ended, forcing him to go off the track.  While off the track, at first he accelerated (without putting someone in danger), then backed off a lot for about half the distance, to make sure he didn't gain an advantage.  He then punched it as he entered the track.  He didn't gain an advantage. The distance between him and Levi was approximately double what it was when he exited the track.  I don't see how this breaks the actual rules.

Deegan cut one track marker 2 turns prior to the finish line: It looked like his bike caught a rut or for one reason or another pitched left to the outside of the track marker.  In that spot, there would be no reason to do this on purpose.  It's slower than keeping momentum and staying on the track.  Deegan slowed down for a second or two, put his hand up, then continued the race.  There was no advantaged gained, and he slowed up, so I don't believe this breaks the actual rules.

Summary:

According to the actual rules, Vialle earned a penalty because he accelerated the entire time he was off the track.  Deegan accelerated during part of one excursion, but also backed it down for approximately half the time he was off the track.  The other 2 instances were handled exactly how they're supposed to.

I know the AMA messes up these things sometimes, but in this instance I believe they made the right call.

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30
5/28/2024 4:59am

It was on Vialle for not attempting to at least look like he's slowing down.  He's smart, a clean rider and I'll bet he doesn't do it next time.

2
Brad460
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5/28/2024 5:21am Edited Date/Time 5/28/2024 5:23am
Radical wrote:
Vialle made a good point in the post race conference.  If you don't gain a position, he feels there should be no penalty. According the rules...

Vialle made a good point in the post race conference.  If you don't gain a position, he feels there should be no penalty.

According the rules, here's my take.

Vialle went off the track, and accelerated the entire stretch, as if he was still on the track.  He didn't slow down whatsoever.  For this, he deserves a penalty.

Deegan on this same stretch:  There was a small amount of roost at first, but it was obvious he had slowed down considerably.  H then slowed a lot, and looked over to make sure the track was clear.  As he entered the track, and maybe 10 feet prior, he accelerated.  Since he slowed down intentionally, I don't see where this breaks the rules.  It's quite different than how Vialle rode this section.  I don't see how this breaks the actual rules.

Deegan's going off the track in the second Turn:  Deagan was railing the outside, and the berm ended, forcing him to go off the track.  While off the track, at first he accelerated (without putting someone in danger), then backed off a lot for about half the distance, to make sure he didn't gain an advantage.  He then punched it as he entered the track.  He didn't gain an advantage. The distance between him and Levi was approximately double what it was when he exited the track.  I don't see how this breaks the actual rules.

Deegan cut one track marker 2 turns prior to the finish line: It looked like his bike caught a rut or for one reason or another pitched left to the outside of the track marker.  In that spot, there would be no reason to do this on purpose.  It's slower than keeping momentum and staying on the track.  Deegan slowed down for a second or two, put his hand up, then continued the race.  There was no advantaged gained, and he slowed up, so I don't believe this breaks the actual rules.

Summary:

According to the actual rules, Vialle earned a penalty because he accelerated the entire time he was off the track.  Deegan accelerated during part of one excursion, but also backed it down for approximately half the time he was off the track.  The other 2 instances were handled exactly how they're supposed to.

I know the AMA messes up these things sometimes, but in this instance I believe they made the right call.

Finally someone who actually watched each incident and is able to assess without bias. Same thing I see watching it over and over this past weekend.

Its the same thing the AMA saw and I can assure you they watched the incidents 25x each.

Facts are that Vialle actually increased his speed while off track via WOT, everyone else (Deegan, Sexton..etc) slowed down..

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sjodin73
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5/28/2024 5:22am
 

 

14
NVA57
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5/28/2024 5:49am

It’s completely bogus that one is docked and the other is not. RV hit the nail on it’s head. 

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kawasa84
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5/28/2024 5:50am
soggy wrote:

Vialle accelerated, Deegan didn’t. 

MxAddic wrote:
Lol! .  

Lol! .

 

AMA going off track rule also states when off track, the safety to track workers is I guess, kinda important. At least that's what they want us to believe. I'm glad that track worker wasn't hit. 

I've watched both motos now twice. I've rewatched the off track excursions by both even more. There's no question in my mind, the rules were not applied evenly. Deegan should have been docked. 

I truly wish the AMA would've been consistent. Not making the right call here puts the AMA in this ridiculous position. One they deserve. But it has started the season out on a bad note for the 250f class, and just worries me on the fact their are 20 moto's to go and the AMA can't be trusted. Sad really.

Here's hoping for some great racing, and a great series, despite the shortcomings of the AMA.

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TappedOut
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5/28/2024 5:59am

Dear AMA,

Do the right thing because it's the right thing to do... Pretty simple... 

2
kxking
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5/28/2024 6:56am

Just going to place this here...

Its not the first time and won't be the last. Got away with it in amatuers...

22:25

https://youtu.be/WTt5UqGj3zw 

WOW, that was crazy!

No penalty for that ?

1
Rad76
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5/28/2024 7:10am

Both should get penalized. As for the rule, getting off track means you did a big mistake, you should lose time for that. Entering where you went out is the simpliest way to do it for me.

5
5/28/2024 7:40am
Brad460 wrote:
Finally someone who actually watched each incident and is able to assess without bias. Same thing I see watching it over and over this past weekend...

Finally someone who actually watched each incident and is able to assess without bias. Same thing I see watching it over and over this past weekend.

Its the same thing the AMA saw and I can assure you they watched the incidents 25x each.

Facts are that Vialle actually increased his speed while off track via WOT, everyone else (Deegan, Sexton..etc) slowed down..

The argument has been the AMA is penalizing some riders and not all riders. If you don’t think that’s true, go compare Haiden Deegan incident to the penalties handed down from the AMA for San Diego SX just this year.

 

How is this even a debate.

1
Shakybonez15
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5/28/2024 7:56am
Radical wrote:
Vialle made a good point in the post race conference.  If you don't gain a position, he feels there should be no penalty. According the rules...

Vialle made a good point in the post race conference.  If you don't gain a position, he feels there should be no penalty.

According the rules, here's my take.

Vialle went off the track, and accelerated the entire stretch, as if he was still on the track.  He didn't slow down whatsoever.  For this, he deserves a penalty.

Deegan on this same stretch:  There was a small amount of roost at first, but it was obvious he had slowed down considerably.  H then slowed a lot, and looked over to make sure the track was clear.  As he entered the track, and maybe 10 feet prior, he accelerated.  Since he slowed down intentionally, I don't see where this breaks the rules.  It's quite different than how Vialle rode this section.  I don't see how this breaks the actual rules.

Deegan's going off the track in the second Turn:  Deagan was railing the outside, and the berm ended, forcing him to go off the track.  While off the track, at first he accelerated (without putting someone in danger), then backed off a lot for about half the distance, to make sure he didn't gain an advantage.  He then punched it as he entered the track.  He didn't gain an advantage. The distance between him and Levi was approximately double what it was when he exited the track.  I don't see how this breaks the actual rules.

Deegan cut one track marker 2 turns prior to the finish line: It looked like his bike caught a rut or for one reason or another pitched left to the outside of the track marker.  In that spot, there would be no reason to do this on purpose.  It's slower than keeping momentum and staying on the track.  Deegan slowed down for a second or two, put his hand up, then continued the race.  There was no advantaged gained, and he slowed up, so I don't believe this breaks the actual rules.

Summary:

According to the actual rules, Vialle earned a penalty because he accelerated the entire time he was off the track.  Deegan accelerated during part of one excursion, but also backed it down for approximately half the time he was off the track.  The other 2 instances were handled exactly how they're supposed to.

I know the AMA messes up these things sometimes, but in this instance I believe they made the right call.

Exactly this and what was said on pulp, he never gained any time and lost time based on all the recordings and cameras they have. That simple

 

people have turned this mole hill into mount Everest. 

2
10
5/28/2024 7:56am

In my eyes a short off-track excursion shouldn't warrant an entire position penalty. But should be a time penalty around 2 seconds. Unless the rider cuts the track to pass another rider, or makes up time while off track (which Vialle was definitely hard on the gas) then I can understand the position penalty.

3
6
wrc777
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5/28/2024 8:30am
Radical wrote:
Vialle made a good point in the post race conference.  If you don't gain a position, he feels there should be no penalty. According the rules...

Vialle made a good point in the post race conference.  If you don't gain a position, he feels there should be no penalty.

According the rules, here's my take.

Vialle went off the track, and accelerated the entire stretch, as if he was still on the track.  He didn't slow down whatsoever.  For this, he deserves a penalty.

Deegan on this same stretch:  There was a small amount of roost at first, but it was obvious he had slowed down considerably.  H then slowed a lot, and looked over to make sure the track was clear.  As he entered the track, and maybe 10 feet prior, he accelerated.  Since he slowed down intentionally, I don't see where this breaks the rules.  It's quite different than how Vialle rode this section.  I don't see how this breaks the actual rules.

Deegan's going off the track in the second Turn:  Deagan was railing the outside, and the berm ended, forcing him to go off the track.  While off the track, at first he accelerated (without putting someone in danger), then backed off a lot for about half the distance, to make sure he didn't gain an advantage.  He then punched it as he entered the track.  He didn't gain an advantage. The distance between him and Levi was approximately double what it was when he exited the track.  I don't see how this breaks the actual rules.

Deegan cut one track marker 2 turns prior to the finish line: It looked like his bike caught a rut or for one reason or another pitched left to the outside of the track marker.  In that spot, there would be no reason to do this on purpose.  It's slower than keeping momentum and staying on the track.  Deegan slowed down for a second or two, put his hand up, then continued the race.  There was no advantaged gained, and he slowed up, so I don't believe this breaks the actual rules.

Summary:

According to the actual rules, Vialle earned a penalty because he accelerated the entire time he was off the track.  Deegan accelerated during part of one excursion, but also backed it down for approximately half the time he was off the track.  The other 2 instances were handled exactly how they're supposed to.

I know the AMA messes up these things sometimes, but in this instance I believe they made the right call.

Brad460 wrote:
Finally someone who actually watched each incident and is able to assess without bias. Same thing I see watching it over and over this past weekend...

Finally someone who actually watched each incident and is able to assess without bias. Same thing I see watching it over and over this past weekend.

Its the same thing the AMA saw and I can assure you they watched the incidents 25x each.

Facts are that Vialle actually increased his speed while off track via WOT, everyone else (Deegan, Sexton..etc) slowed down..

The problem with this take is it looks like Vialle loses time to whoever is behind him.

1
sam hain
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5/28/2024 8:44am

Once these guys get so popular they become "almost" untouchable. Thus the difference IMO between vialle and deegan. Same would have happened if we were talking about filthy phil and jett. Which one you think the ama is gonna go after for something?

I still remember this being a huge deal back in the day with RC.

https://racerxonline.com/2006/02/28/vp-racing-fuels-responds-to-ricky-carmichaels-fuel-penalty

5/28/2024 8:51am

So many people are so stuck on the "did he gain an advantage" thing (in regards to anyone going off track), there is something barely being talked about. RC or RV said it on their podcast: if you make a MISTAKE, there should be consequences. It's a professional race with a set course, going off that course should come with a penalty, regardless.

I like Vialle, but his point about if you don't gain a position there shouldn't be a penalty is wild. 

What leads to leaving the track? A mistake. A mistake in a professional race should result in an advantage for your competition who didn't make that mistake. Pretty simple.

RV going hard on Deegan not being penalized is awesome considering he's a Yamaha guy.

Kitchen saying he probably wouldn't have passed him anyway, but the issue is Vialle being docked, is about the most mature response he could have had. Deegan saying "Mitch is trying...." and then realizing he's about to get lit up and changing course (pun intended) is also about right.

I don't understand how you can watch Vialle go off track and jump back on (penalty justified) and then watch Deegan go off track THREE times with no penalty and think yeah, that makes sense.

If this was reversed, Star Yamaha would have been at the AMA trailer IMMEDIATELY. Remember Lakewood a few years ago??

24
1
5/28/2024 9:31am
Radical wrote:
Vialle made a good point in the post race conference.  If you don't gain a position, he feels there should be no penalty. According the rules...

Vialle made a good point in the post race conference.  If you don't gain a position, he feels there should be no penalty.

According the rules, here's my take.

Vialle went off the track, and accelerated the entire stretch, as if he was still on the track.  He didn't slow down whatsoever.  For this, he deserves a penalty.

Deegan on this same stretch:  There was a small amount of roost at first, but it was obvious he had slowed down considerably.  H then slowed a lot, and looked over to make sure the track was clear.  As he entered the track, and maybe 10 feet prior, he accelerated.  Since he slowed down intentionally, I don't see where this breaks the rules.  It's quite different than how Vialle rode this section.  I don't see how this breaks the actual rules.

Deegan's going off the track in the second Turn:  Deagan was railing the outside, and the berm ended, forcing him to go off the track.  While off the track, at first he accelerated (without putting someone in danger), then backed off a lot for about half the distance, to make sure he didn't gain an advantage.  He then punched it as he entered the track.  He didn't gain an advantage. The distance between him and Levi was approximately double what it was when he exited the track.  I don't see how this breaks the actual rules.

Deegan cut one track marker 2 turns prior to the finish line: It looked like his bike caught a rut or for one reason or another pitched left to the outside of the track marker.  In that spot, there would be no reason to do this on purpose.  It's slower than keeping momentum and staying on the track.  Deegan slowed down for a second or two, put his hand up, then continued the race.  There was no advantaged gained, and he slowed up, so I don't believe this breaks the actual rules.

Summary:

According to the actual rules, Vialle earned a penalty because he accelerated the entire time he was off the track.  Deegan accelerated during part of one excursion, but also backed it down for approximately half the time he was off the track.  The other 2 instances were handled exactly how they're supposed to.

I know the AMA messes up these things sometimes, but in this instance I believe they made the right call.

This is a reasonable post, but you used a lot of words just to only consider 1/3 of the rule. 

The rule states that a rider must "immediately slow down" to a safe speed. Did you see Deegan immediately slow down?

If the only concern was gaining an advantage then your post makes sense, though I agree with what many others have posted about the idea that simply not losing much time is, in fact, gaining an advantage since a rider mistake was made. 

But Deegan goes off track and then guns it, with track personnel nearby, before letting off a bit. He violated 2/3 of the rule.

No argument with Vialle. He did as well.

6
Mit12
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5/28/2024 9:33am

The only constant thing the AMA does is their inconsistency.

11

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