Stark Varg LL’s Vet Classes

ktmracer726
Posts
302
Joined
11/23/2009
Location
Gagetown, MI, USA
12/11/2023 5:43am
7eleven wrote:
Curious if this has come up yet? The Varg is my only rig and LL’s is on my radar for 2024.    I would hope it’s...

Curious if this has come up yet? The Varg is my only rig and LL’s is on my radar for 2024. 
 

I would hope it’s Vet class friendly. 

38special wrote:

What did MX Sports say when you asked them?

I asked, they never emailed me back. 2023 rules, read below the table. Only allowed if outlined in the event supplemental rules. I was told the AMA will not be allowing any ebikes to race with gas bikes by our local district president.

 

image0.jpeg

 

3
MxAddic
Posts
5308
Joined
11/24/2022
Location
USA
12/11/2023 6:06am
7eleven wrote:
Riders will acclimate pretty quickly to the EMX bikes on the track. I’ve been planting those seeds every weekend. Guys come up and talk to me...

Riders will acclimate pretty quickly to the EMX bikes on the track. I’ve been planting those seeds every weekend. Guys come up and talk to me about it. It’s pretty cool. 

Lots of cool things in life. Is it cool enough of a reason to drop $15K? Some think so. We will see about the rest.

1
mx317
Posts
5348
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
12/11/2023 6:10am

I could see a problem classifying it into a CC class, but in a "run what you brung" Vet class it shouldn't be an issue. I'm not saying it won't be, but it shouldn't be.  

3
1
7eleven
Posts
655
Joined
8/20/2012
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
12/11/2023 6:30am
zippytech wrote:

I don't know why it matters in amateur racing, no one is using all the power they have now, having more don't make you faster.

I ride my Varg at 42hp. It is so user friendly for me right there. Bumped it to 50 once for 5 laps, put it back to 42. 

3
1

The Shop

WarrenMX
Posts
794
Joined
3/26/2017
Location
San Clemente, CA, USA
12/11/2023 7:01am
7eleven wrote:

Tell me how it’s unfair?

Tell me you know nothing about racing without telling me you know nothing about racing. 

Motocross is a very unique motorsport in that more power/displacement doesn't necessarily mean faster lap times. A 450 doesn't automatically beat a 250... there are trade-offs with handling that come with higher displacement. This is also why open classes in motocross are interesting and why they work, especially at the vet level.

An electric bike gives you the handling of a 250f and more power and torque than a factory 450. The power of that electric motor is also much easier to manage through software. This is why they are very impressive machines and also why they are an unfair advantage. I would also say that the no clutch and no gear box setup is a distinct advantage in the lower/slower/vet classes. Not so much at the pro level, but the average vet rider hasn't got their shifting and gear selection perfectly dialed. 

And lastly the start... arguably the single most important part of any motocross race. Hopefully I don't need to explain the advantage an electric bike has on the start. 

5
5
FGR01
Posts
6128
Joined
10/1/2006
Location
USA
Fantasy
12/11/2023 7:55am

MXSports will love having E-bikes at LL's.  That way they can charge a $400/wk "EBike charging fee" which will, of course, be charged regardless of whether or not you bring your own generator.

11
JB 19
Posts
4342
Joined
3/8/2009
Location
Marion, OH, USA
12/11/2023 8:05am
JB 19 wrote:
I've not rode an Alta or Stark and I'm going to assume that they are a big advantage over a gas bike.   More power,  better handling...

I've not rode an Alta or Stark and I'm going to assume that they are a big advantage over a gas bike.   More power,  better handling and no gears to shift. 

My opinion is that with gas bikes there is an advantage and disadvantage with every change in engine size or 4 stroke and 2 stroke.   Generally when you gain power you lose handling with a gas bike so the "open" class rules work.   With electric there really is no disadvantage or trade off.   If they allow them to race it will force everyone in that class to be on one to be competitive.  

How so? I raced a 144cc in the vet B classes for years against 450’s. And the engine isn’t what makes the bikes “handling” get worse...

How so? I raced a 144cc in the vet B classes for years against 450’s. And the engine isn’t what makes the bikes “handling” get worse. It’s mainly the effect of the power on rear suspension, from the torque on chassis, Swingarm and shock. Those effects will still be there on an e-bike. 

Are you going to be trying to qualify for LL's this year?  

7eleven
Posts
655
Joined
8/20/2012
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
12/11/2023 8:16am
7eleven wrote:

Tell me how it’s unfair?

WarrenMX wrote:
Tell me you know nothing about racing without telling me you know nothing about racing.  Motocross is a very unique motorsport in that more power/displacement doesn't...

Tell me you know nothing about racing without telling me you know nothing about racing. 

Motocross is a very unique motorsport in that more power/displacement doesn't necessarily mean faster lap times. A 450 doesn't automatically beat a 250... there are trade-offs with handling that come with higher displacement. This is also why open classes in motocross are interesting and why they work, especially at the vet level.

An electric bike gives you the handling of a 250f and more power and torque than a factory 450. The power of that electric motor is also much easier to manage through software. This is why they are very impressive machines and also why they are an unfair advantage. I would also say that the no clutch and no gear box setup is a distinct advantage in the lower/slower/vet classes. Not so much at the pro level, but the average vet rider hasn't got their shifting and gear selection perfectly dialed. 

And lastly the start... arguably the single most important part of any motocross race. Hopefully I don't need to explain the advantage an electric bike has on the start. 

Sorry, just a rookie here. I need visionaries like yourself to spell it out for me. 
Can you dive into those supreme handing details that you mentioned, about a bike you’ve never ridden? 

You’re welcome to come try my Varg if you’re in the DFW area. 

3
6
8tensolutions
Posts
3485
Joined
11/15/2009
Location
Salt Lake City, UT, USA
12/11/2023 8:22am Edited Date/Time 12/11/2023 8:23am
7eleven wrote:

Tell me how it’s unfair?

WarrenMX wrote:
Tell me you know nothing about racing without telling me you know nothing about racing.  Motocross is a very unique motorsport in that more power/displacement doesn't...

Tell me you know nothing about racing without telling me you know nothing about racing. 

Motocross is a very unique motorsport in that more power/displacement doesn't necessarily mean faster lap times. A 450 doesn't automatically beat a 250... there are trade-offs with handling that come with higher displacement. This is also why open classes in motocross are interesting and why they work, especially at the vet level.

An electric bike gives you the handling of a 250f and more power and torque than a factory 450. The power of that electric motor is also much easier to manage through software. This is why they are very impressive machines and also why they are an unfair advantage. I would also say that the no clutch and no gear box setup is a distinct advantage in the lower/slower/vet classes. Not so much at the pro level, but the average vet rider hasn't got their shifting and gear selection perfectly dialed. 

And lastly the start... arguably the single most important part of any motocross race. Hopefully I don't need to explain the advantage an electric bike has on the start. 

Great.  If all that is accurate and riders are all equal, then everyone will buy a Stark if they want to win.  Simple enough.  OPEN class should mean OPEN.  2 wheels and a propulsion device.  Go race and the best man/machine combo wins.   Want to show up with a Hayabusa motor stuffed in an RM 85 frame?  No problem.

Hopefully I don't need to explain this further to you.

3
7
JB 19
Posts
4342
Joined
3/8/2009
Location
Marion, OH, USA
12/11/2023 8:33am

Just to be clear, we're not talking about local racing here,  only vet classes at Lorettas correct?  

If so,  you should have to have some skin in the game to have an opinion.   

2
djr
Posts
149
Joined
1/18/2015
Location
GB
12/11/2023 8:34am

KTM has the money and pull like lobbyist to get what they want. Alta didn't, and Stark probably doesn't either.

Of course KTM have more influence than Stark/Alta.

Stark have been around for 5 minutes, KTM have been around for decades and spent millions on the sport.(same as the Japanese big 4)

It may not be fair in a sporting sense, but it makes sense on the business side of sport.

Why would any organising body favour a small start up manufacturer over manufacturers that have spent millions over decades supporting the sport.

5
WarrenMX
Posts
794
Joined
3/26/2017
Location
San Clemente, CA, USA
12/11/2023 8:40am
7eleven wrote:
Sorry, just a rookie here. I need visionaries like yourself to spell it out for me.  Can you dive into those supreme handing details that you...

Sorry, just a rookie here. I need visionaries like yourself to spell it out for me. 
Can you dive into those supreme handing details that you mentioned, about a bike you’ve never ridden? 

You’re welcome to come try my Varg if you’re in the DFW area. 

Thank you for the offer, I've ridden a Stark and an Alta and they were both very impressive and eye opening to ride. I think you're mistaking me for an ebike hater, which I am not. I really don't care what people bring to the track and ride but to state that they are not in any way advantageous over a gas bike in a race situation is either ignorant or trolling. 

5
1
RACING
Posts
1918
Joined
6/9/2023
Location
Waddafeuque, FR
12/11/2023 8:41am
7eleven wrote:
Riders will acclimate pretty quickly to the EMX bikes on the track. I’ve been planting those seeds every weekend. Guys come up and talk to me...

Riders will acclimate pretty quickly to the EMX bikes on the track. I’ve been planting those seeds every weekend. Guys come up and talk to me about it. It’s pretty cool. 

Haaaaaa, the New Church of the Holy Stark has a new zealot.

Praise St Anton.

 

3
2
Falcon
Posts
12454
Joined
11/16/2011
Location
Menifee, CA, USA
12/11/2023 8:43am

I'm cool with MX Sports and the AMA taking their time on this issue, as long as they eventually get the rules ironed out so Vargs can compete. I think the smartest idea is for them to have their own class. 

4
zookrider62!
Posts
6825
Joined
12/22/2008
Location
Plano, TX, USA
12/11/2023 8:52am
7eleven wrote:

Tell me how it’s unfair?

WarrenMX wrote:
Tell me you know nothing about racing without telling me you know nothing about racing.  Motocross is a very unique motorsport in that more power/displacement doesn't...

Tell me you know nothing about racing without telling me you know nothing about racing. 

Motocross is a very unique motorsport in that more power/displacement doesn't necessarily mean faster lap times. A 450 doesn't automatically beat a 250... there are trade-offs with handling that come with higher displacement. This is also why open classes in motocross are interesting and why they work, especially at the vet level.

An electric bike gives you the handling of a 250f and more power and torque than a factory 450. The power of that electric motor is also much easier to manage through software. This is why they are very impressive machines and also why they are an unfair advantage. I would also say that the no clutch and no gear box setup is a distinct advantage in the lower/slower/vet classes. Not so much at the pro level, but the average vet rider hasn't got their shifting and gear selection perfectly dialed. 

And lastly the start... arguably the single most important part of any motocross race. Hopefully I don't need to explain the advantage an electric bike has on the start. 

Id guess 7eleven knows a decent amount about racing, but I could be wrong. Pretty sure these are his results

711.JPG?VersionId=VwFXiPeg H

6
1
12/11/2023 8:54am

KTM has the money and pull like lobbyist to get what they want. Alta didn't, and Stark probably doesn't either.

brian-regan-confused 10.gif?VersionId=

7eleven
Posts
655
Joined
8/20/2012
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
12/11/2023 8:58am
7eleven wrote:
Sorry, just a rookie here. I need visionaries like yourself to spell it out for me.  Can you dive into those supreme handing details that you...

Sorry, just a rookie here. I need visionaries like yourself to spell it out for me. 
Can you dive into those supreme handing details that you mentioned, about a bike you’ve never ridden? 

You’re welcome to come try my Varg if you’re in the DFW area. 

WarrenMX wrote:
Thank you for the offer, I've ridden a Stark and an Alta and they were both very impressive and eye opening to ride. I think you're...

Thank you for the offer, I've ridden a Stark and an Alta and they were both very impressive and eye opening to ride. I think you're mistaking me for an ebike hater, which I am not. I really don't care what people bring to the track and ride but to state that they are not in any way advantageous over a gas bike in a race situation is either ignorant or trolling. 

I only asked you a question. “How is it unfair”. 
Meaning, I wanted your opinion. 
 

And I didn’t call you a hater. You seem kinda edgy. 

1
2
7eleven
Posts
655
Joined
8/20/2012
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
12/11/2023 9:00am
7eleven wrote:

Tell me how it’s unfair?

WarrenMX wrote:
Tell me you know nothing about racing without telling me you know nothing about racing.  Motocross is a very unique motorsport in that more power/displacement doesn't...

Tell me you know nothing about racing without telling me you know nothing about racing. 

Motocross is a very unique motorsport in that more power/displacement doesn't necessarily mean faster lap times. A 450 doesn't automatically beat a 250... there are trade-offs with handling that come with higher displacement. This is also why open classes in motocross are interesting and why they work, especially at the vet level.

An electric bike gives you the handling of a 250f and more power and torque than a factory 450. The power of that electric motor is also much easier to manage through software. This is why they are very impressive machines and also why they are an unfair advantage. I would also say that the no clutch and no gear box setup is a distinct advantage in the lower/slower/vet classes. Not so much at the pro level, but the average vet rider hasn't got their shifting and gear selection perfectly dialed. 

And lastly the start... arguably the single most important part of any motocross race. Hopefully I don't need to explain the advantage an electric bike has on the start. 

Id guess 7eleven knows a decent amount about racing, but I could be wrong. Pretty sure these are his results

Id guess 7eleven knows a decent amount about racing, but I could be wrong. Pretty sure these are his results

711.JPG?VersionId=VwFXiPeg H

Thx buddy. 
I know a thing or two about our sport. 

7
1
WarrenMX
Posts
794
Joined
3/26/2017
Location
San Clemente, CA, USA
12/11/2023 9:05am
7eleven wrote:
I only asked you a question. “How is it unfair”.  Meaning, I wanted your opinion.    And I didn’t call you a hater. You seem kinda...

I only asked you a question. “How is it unfair”. 
Meaning, I wanted your opinion. 
 

And I didn’t call you a hater. You seem kinda edgy. 

Fair enough... I took your question the wrong way. 

1
1
JB 19
Posts
4342
Joined
3/8/2009
Location
Marion, OH, USA
12/11/2023 9:23am
7eleven wrote:

Thx buddy. 
I know a thing or two about our sport. 

What we're saying is that the Stark is clearly the superior bike and an unfair advantage against gas bikes.   That's why they shouldn't be allowed to compete directly.   

1
Silas444
Posts
638
Joined
5/23/2015
Location
Mid-state, ME, USA
12/11/2023 10:24am
JB 19 wrote:
What we're saying is that the Stark is clearly the superior bike and an unfair advantage against gas bikes.   That's why they shouldn't be allowed to...

What we're saying is that the Stark is clearly the superior bike and an unfair advantage against gas bikes.   That's why they shouldn't be allowed to compete directly.   

You guys better quit saying the quiet part out loud. Word could leak out that the Stark C.E.O.s claim that the Varg is the best dirt bike ever might start gaining credibility - and that's against A.M.A. and F.I.M. and O.E.M "rules."

JBlain619
Posts
1842
Joined
6/10/2010
Location
Severna Park, MD, USA
12/11/2023 10:37am
7eleven wrote:

Thx buddy. 
I know a thing or two about our sport. 

How goes it Austin??  Maximoff told me if I saw you again on here to tell you he said what's up!

7eleven
Posts
655
Joined
8/20/2012
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
12/11/2023 12:49pm
7eleven wrote:

Thx buddy. 
I know a thing or two about our sport. 

JBlain619 wrote:

How goes it Austin??  Maximoff told me if I saw you again on here to tell you he said what's up!

Howdy! That’s funny, Matt popped in my head the other day. Think I was watching ‘22 Redbud. Tell him to come to TX and ride my Varg. First charge is on me! 

1
Titan1
Posts
9430
Joined
2/3/2010
Location
Lehi, UT, USA
12/11/2023 1:16pm

How many bikes has stark actually sold?  A few thousand, total?   KTM sells like 500k per year….why would sanctioning bodies start making rules for a bike that may or may not even be around in 5 years?  Stark is far more likely to follow the path of Alta than KTM….I see no issue with FIM, AMA, MX Sports waiting to see what happens with the bike before they start moving classes around for what is, at this point, a novelty.  

4
seth505
Posts
10210
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
SD, CA, USA
12/11/2023 1:17pm
7eleven wrote:
Sorry, just a rookie here. I need visionaries like yourself to spell it out for me.  Can you dive into those supreme handing details that you...

Sorry, just a rookie here. I need visionaries like yourself to spell it out for me. 
Can you dive into those supreme handing details that you mentioned, about a bike you’ve never ridden? 

You’re welcome to come try my Varg if you’re in the DFW area. 

WarrenMX wrote:
Thank you for the offer, I've ridden a Stark and an Alta and they were both very impressive and eye opening to ride. I think you're...

Thank you for the offer, I've ridden a Stark and an Alta and they were both very impressive and eye opening to ride. I think you're mistaking me for an ebike hater, which I am not. I really don't care what people bring to the track and ride but to state that they are not in any way advantageous over a gas bike in a race situation is either ignorant or trolling. 

7eleven wrote:
I only asked you a question. “How is it unfair”.  Meaning, I wanted your opinion.    And I didn’t call you a hater. You seem kinda...

I only asked you a question. “How is it unfair”. 
Meaning, I wanted your opinion. 
 

And I didn’t call you a hater. You seem kinda edgy. 

I'd be really surprised if your honest impression wasn't "wow, this bike is very easy to ride".  Starting with 80 HP on the gate that you don't have to shift, how is that not a clear advantage?  

That said, I'm not saying they should be "banned" but a high horsepower electric bike is very easy to ride fast around a track (and trails) compared to ICE engines with a 5-speed gearbox.  I think people should be able to race them but in the same class as 125-450 ICE engines is questionable at the very least.

1
MxAddic
Posts
5308
Joined
11/24/2022
Location
USA
12/11/2023 1:22pm
Titan1 wrote:
How many bikes has stark actually sold?  A few thousand, total?   KTM sells like 500k per year….why would sanctioning bodies start making rules for a...

How many bikes has stark actually sold?  A few thousand, total?   KTM sells like 500k per year….why would sanctioning bodies start making rules for a bike that may or may not even be around in 5 years?  Stark is far more likely to follow the path of Alta than KTM….I see no issue with FIM, AMA, MX Sports waiting to see what happens with the bike before they start moving classes around for what is, at this point, a novelty.  

To retail customers not even close. I would be surprised if there are more than 500. Most of the first thousand went to influencers and Demo bikes. 

1
2
12/11/2023 2:15pm
Titan1 wrote:
How many bikes has stark actually sold?  A few thousand, total?   KTM sells like 500k per year….why would sanctioning bodies start making rules for a...

How many bikes has stark actually sold?  A few thousand, total?   KTM sells like 500k per year….why would sanctioning bodies start making rules for a bike that may or may not even be around in 5 years?  Stark is far more likely to follow the path of Alta than KTM….I see no issue with FIM, AMA, MX Sports waiting to see what happens with the bike before they start moving classes around for what is, at this point, a novelty.  

Kawasaki has said they will be 100% electric by a certain date.  Honda has an electric MX bike they are working on. And I imagine that all of the current brands are working on one. So it would not only be a rule to let Stark race. It would be a set of rules that other other manufacturers could have in mind while they develop their EMX bikes. 

They could let Stark be a guinea pig and allow they to race, and share the data from the races to see what settings would make it similar to the 250 and 450 class bikes.Let them experiment with different levels of power and battery sizes, etc. And use Starks money and riders to help make rules that make sense. And maybe avoid another 2 stroke to 4 stroke like advantage. Maybe they make Stark sign a rider that has not finished above a certain position, or not award points that count towards a title, but would still count for payout and a national number. I'm sure they could work something out if both parties wanted to.  Unless they already have worked out a set of rules for when Honda and Kawasaki bring out their EMX bikes. But why not do what some other federations are doing with letting the Varg race with some restrictions. 

 

1
2
12/11/2023 2:33pm
7eleven wrote:

Thx buddy. 
I know a thing or two about our sport. 

JB 19 wrote:
What we're saying is that the Stark is clearly the superior bike and an unfair advantage against gas bikes.   That's why they shouldn't be allowed to...

What we're saying is that the Stark is clearly the superior bike and an unfair advantage against gas bikes.   That's why they shouldn't be allowed to compete directly.   

If superior bikes shouldn't be allowed to compete, Factory editions, A-kit suspension, aftermarket exhausts, aftermarket ECUs and engine modes should all be banned!

5
5
endurox
Posts
2097
Joined
3/22/2014
Location
Garden City, ID, USA
12/11/2023 2:39pm

harley and the ama controlled the flat track, half mile, mile rules and destroyed the sport for decades. Then Indian came along and built a bike around the rules. Smoked harley so bad that the ama  made Indian slow their bikes down so the harleys didn't  get lapped. the ama is just a road block unless you work for harley, ktm or honda.

4
1
kijen
Posts
1229
Joined
10/1/2010
Location
Jacksonville, FL, USA
12/11/2023 2:48pm
WarrenMX wrote:

They should allow them to race but in their own class. It's an unfair advantage.

Are we talkin bikes or pro's, lol. KiddingSmile

1

Post a reply to: Stark Varg LL’s Vet Classes

The Latest