Family stealing stuff at Mini’Os

TheGetFresh wrote:

Looks like he’s got two counts of Grand larceny and two counts of modifying numbers (scratched vins, probably) all of which are felonies.    If vehicles...

Looks like he’s got two counts of Grand larceny and two counts of modifying numbers (scratched vins, probably) all of which are felonies. 
 

If vehicles were stolen in OK and transported over state lines as it sounds, he may get federal charges if the US attorney feels so inclined. 
 

hubbardmx50 wrote:

According to this article he's already had a federal conviction. I wonder what for... "he has out-of-state criminal convictions spanning 2000 to 2023 and a federal...

According to this article he's already had a federal conviction. I wonder what for...

"he has out-of-state criminal convictions spanning 2000 to 2023 and a federal conviction from 2018"

https://alachuachronicle.com/south-dakota-man-charged-with-stealing-e-b…

Sounds like a solid dude!

Acocountylaw wrote:

A reliable source with the case said that it is believed this guy bought 2 bikes that were disassembled from another party at the track.  Evidently...

A reliable source with the case said that it is believed this guy bought 2 bikes that were disassembled from another party at the track.  Evidently they searched the guys rig high and low and it was determined he was not in possession of several main components to the vehicles that he was original though to have been the one to disassemble. Namely a $2000 battery to a Talaria along with many other parts that one would think he would have had if he had been the party responsible for the disassembly. They also located a bill of sale during the search that had both vehicles listed along with the date it occurred and the selling parties signature.  The other party wasn’t immediately searched for untill the search warrant turned up this  information and by that time almost everyone camped  in that area had loaded up and left.  The guy and his family seem just as much victims as the family’s who had their bikes stolen if not more at this point.  If these fact are indeed true which I believe them to be.  I feel horrible for them after reading the sick and down right twisted comments ppl are posting.   This could have happened to anyone considering there isn’t anyway for a member of the public to check vins to see if they are stollen or clean at the time of purchase.   Just remember it could easily happen to you any time you purchase something from a private party you don’t know. 

Acocountylaw wrote:

A reliable source with the case said that it is believed this guy bought 2 bikes that were disassembled from another party at the track.  Evidently...

A reliable source with the case said that it is believed this guy bought 2 bikes that were disassembled from another party at the track.  Evidently they searched the guys rig high and low and it was determined he was not in possession of several main components to the vehicles that he was original though to have been the one to disassemble. Namely a $2000 battery to a Talaria along with many other parts that one would think he would have had if he had been the party responsible for the disassembly. They also located a bill of sale during the search that had both vehicles listed along with the date it occurred and the selling parties signature.  The other party wasn’t immediately searched for untill the search warrant turned up this  information and by that time almost everyone camped  in that area had loaded up and left.  The guy and his family seem just as much victims as the family’s who had their bikes stolen if not more at this point.  If these fact are indeed true which I believe them to be.  I feel horrible for them after reading the sick and down right twisted comments ppl are posting.   This could have happened to anyone considering there isn’t anyway for a member of the public to check vins to see if they are stollen or clean at the time of purchase.   Just remember it could easily happen to you any time you purchase something from a private party you don’t know. 

Acocountylaw wrote:

A reliable source with the case said that it is believed this guy bought 2 bikes that were disassembled from another party at the track.  Evidently...

A reliable source with the case said that it is believed this guy bought 2 bikes that were disassembled from another party at the track.  Evidently they searched the guys rig high and low and it was determined he was not in possession of several main components to the vehicles that he was original though to have been the one to disassemble. Namely a $2000 battery to a Talaria along with many other parts that one would think he would have had if he had been the party responsible for the disassembly. They also located a bill of sale during the search that had both vehicles listed along with the date it occurred and the selling parties signature.  The other party wasn’t immediately searched for untill the search warrant turned up this  information and by that time almost everyone camped  in that area had loaded up and left.  The guy and his family seem just as much victims as the family’s who had their bikes stolen if not more at this point.  If these fact are indeed true which I believe them to be.  I feel horrible for them after reading the sick and down right twisted comments ppl are posting.   This could have happened to anyone considering there isn’t anyway for a member of the public to check vins to see if they are stollen or clean at the time of purchase.   Just remember it could easily happen to you any time you purchase something from a private party you don’t know. 

8tensolutions wrote:

Let's see.....you created a new account with a law enforcement badge to say this is all false?  So that means the charges have been dropped and...

Let's see.....you created a new account with a law enforcement badge to say this is all false?  So that means the charges have been dropped and he has been released from jail?  

Acocountylaw wrote:

A reliable source with the case said that it is believed this guy bought 2 bikes that were disassembled from another party at the track.  Evidently...

A reliable source with the case said that it is believed this guy bought 2 bikes that were disassembled from another party at the track.  Evidently they searched the guys rig high and low and it was determined he was not in possession of several main components to the vehicles that he was original though to have been the one to disassemble. Namely a $2000 battery to a Talaria along with many other parts that one would think he would have had if he had been the party responsible for the disassembly. They also located a bill of sale during the search that had both vehicles listed along with the date it occurred and the selling parties signature.  The other party wasn’t immediately searched for untill the search warrant turned up this  information and by that time almost everyone camped  in that area had loaded up and left.  The guy and his family seem just as much victims as the family’s who had their bikes stolen if not more at this point.  If these fact are indeed true which I believe them to be.  I feel horrible for them after reading the sick and down right twisted comments ppl are posting.   This could have happened to anyone considering there isn’t anyway for a member of the public to check vins to see if they are stollen or clean at the time of purchase.   Just remember it could easily happen to you any time you purchase something from a private party you don’t know. 

8tensolutions wrote:

Let's see.....you created a new account with a law enforcement badge to say this is all false?  So that means the charges have been dropped and...

Let's see.....you created a new account with a law enforcement badge to say this is all false?  So that means the charges have been dropped and he has been released from jail?  

MPJC wrote:

Civilized people see humans as intrinsically valuable - that is, valuable in and of themselves, irrespective of their value as a means to another's ends. That's...

Civilized people see humans as intrinsically valuable - that is, valuable in and of themselves, irrespective of their value as a means to another's ends. That's why we shouldn't do things like round up people with nothing material to offer anyone and no family connections and harvest their organs. Our whole system of medical ethics is founded on this principle - not based on actual practices or conventions, but on rational principles. You on the other hand, are committing the naturalistic fallacy: inferring an ought from an is (drawing conclusions about how things ought to be based on how things currently are) because you have no idea how to engage in philosophical reasoning. It's embarrassing.  

Even the wrongness of stealing is grounded in the idea that by stealing from someone, you are exploiting them as a mere means to an end without regard for their interests. Persons have their own interests and ends, unlike mere tools that don't care how they are used, That's why the value of persons is not defined by the degree to which they are resources for others. If you don't grant that, then why object to stealing in the first place (other than the brute fact that you don't like it, but why should anyone give a shit about that if persons' interests don't matter?)?

 

TooTallJason wrote:

Gee, in all that sanctimony, you still didn't answer any of the questions I posed, instead you just chose to be an asshole. In your quest...

Gee, in all that sanctimony, you still didn't answer any of the questions I posed, instead you just chose to be an asshole. In your quest to be "right" and point out my fallacies you seem to completely missed the point of my post. 

I do not argue with any of the points you've made. 

What I was working at is why does the culture of our country so clearly value property over people.  Not the medical industry, but our society. Because let's be real, if we as a society gave a fuck about the inherent value of people, there are so many avenues we're going about it wrong. Once "society" starts truly caring about the most at-risk populace, people get up in arms about socialism and communism, as if helping others will remove their agency. 

You and I seem to be in agreement, that if you value life, you must also value their quality of life and stealing from another is to ignore all of that. 

Get off your high horse talking about embarrassing. If you really gave a shit you'd be offering solutions instead of focusing on my lack of "philosophical reasoning."

MPJC wrote:

Given what you’ve just said, I’ve reread your post in a more charitable light and yes, I think I did miss your point. I apologize. I...

Given what you’ve just said, I’ve reread your post in a more charitable light and yes, I think I did miss your point. I apologize. I feel rather stupid but also pleased that you’re not actually arguing that life isn’t valuable. 

mx_563 wrote:

I don't know about bike thefts at amateur races but in general, I am of the opinion that legislation/deterrents/punishments, while necessary, will remain insufficient to reign...

I don't know about bike thefts at amateur races but in general, I am of the opinion that legislation/deterrents/punishments, while necessary, will remain insufficient to reign in the trajectory of "anything goes behavior", as long as American identity, values and social structures remain diluted. I think we've lost sight of a certain unified cultural fabric that promotes self-restraint and makes people feel proud to be part of the same "tribe". Americans no longer seem to be part of a singular apple-pie eating tribe. I think those western societies/cultures that have maintained a very strong sense of identity, tend to hold themselves to a higher standard. Obviously such an argument doesn't apply to impoverished places where despair and hunger drive desperate acts of crime (El Salvador for example). But the US is a wealthy country and should therefore seek solutions by observing the successes of its counterparts in the west. Is Denmark's low crime rate the result of tough penalties? Iceland? Norway? Why is little Slovakia safer than France? Is it legislation/penalties? 

mx_563 wrote:

I don't know about bike thefts at amateur races but in general, I am of the opinion that legislation/deterrents/punishments, while necessary, will remain insufficient to reign...

I don't know about bike thefts at amateur races but in general, I am of the opinion that legislation/deterrents/punishments, while necessary, will remain insufficient to reign in the trajectory of "anything goes behavior", as long as American identity, values and social structures remain diluted. I think we've lost sight of a certain unified cultural fabric that promotes self-restraint and makes people feel proud to be part of the same "tribe". Americans no longer seem to be part of a singular apple-pie eating tribe. I think those western societies/cultures that have maintained a very strong sense of identity, tend to hold themselves to a higher standard. Obviously such an argument doesn't apply to impoverished places where despair and hunger drive desperate acts of crime (El Salvador for example). But the US is a wealthy country and should therefore seek solutions by observing the successes of its counterparts in the west. Is Denmark's low crime rate the result of tough penalties? Iceland? Norway? Why is little Slovakia safer than France? Is it legislation/penalties? 

gantry25 wrote:

Look at the demographics of each of those countries and the reason becomes obvious. They are all homogenous countries with low immigration.

Acocountylaw wrote:

A reliable source with the case said that it is believed this guy bought 2 bikes that were disassembled from another party at the track.  Evidently...

A reliable source with the case said that it is believed this guy bought 2 bikes that were disassembled from another party at the track.  Evidently they searched the guys rig high and low and it was determined he was not in possession of several main components to the vehicles that he was original though to have been the one to disassemble. Namely a $2000 battery to a Talaria along with many other parts that one would think he would have had if he had been the party responsible for the disassembly. They also located a bill of sale during the search that had both vehicles listed along with the date it occurred and the selling parties signature.  The other party wasn’t immediately searched for untill the search warrant turned up this  information and by that time almost everyone camped  in that area had loaded up and left.  The guy and his family seem just as much victims as the family’s who had their bikes stolen if not more at this point.  If these fact are indeed true which I believe them to be.  I feel horrible for them after reading the sick and down right twisted comments ppl are posting.   This could have happened to anyone considering there isn’t anyway for a member of the public to check vins to see if they are stollen or clean at the time of purchase.   Just remember it could easily happen to you any time you purchase something from a private party you don’t know. 

Acocountylaw wrote:

A reliable source with the case said that it is believed this guy bought 2 bikes that were disassembled from another party at the track.  Evidently...

A reliable source with the case said that it is believed this guy bought 2 bikes that were disassembled from another party at the track.  Evidently they searched the guys rig high and low and it was determined he was not in possession of several main components to the vehicles that he was original though to have been the one to disassemble. Namely a $2000 battery to a Talaria along with many other parts that one would think he would have had if he had been the party responsible for the disassembly. They also located a bill of sale during the search that had both vehicles listed along with the date it occurred and the selling parties signature.  The other party wasn’t immediately searched for untill the search warrant turned up this  information and by that time almost everyone camped  in that area had loaded up and left.  The guy and his family seem just as much victims as the family’s who had their bikes stolen if not more at this point.  If these fact are indeed true which I believe them to be.  I feel horrible for them after reading the sick and down right twisted comments ppl are posting.   This could have happened to anyone considering there isn’t anyway for a member of the public to check vins to see if they are stollen or clean at the time of purchase.   Just remember it could easily happen to you any time you purchase something from a private party you don’t know. 

8tensolutions wrote:

Let's see.....you created a new account with a law enforcement badge to say this is all false?  So that means the charges have been dropped and...

Let's see.....you created a new account with a law enforcement badge to say this is all false?  So that means the charges have been dropped and he has been released from jail?  

TooTallJason wrote:

Alright, let's ignore the bike theft at Mini-O's and get philosophical, because let's be real this guy isn't the same as a thief who steals a...

Alright, let's ignore the bike theft at Mini-O's and get philosophical, because let's be real this guy isn't the same as a thief who steals a loaf of bread for their hunger. This guy was stealing strictly for personal gain.

BUT if we're saying life is more valuable than property, then why aren't we, as functioning societies, feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, and providing free healthcare? Doing those will prevent far more theft than cutting off hands, but we don't do that either? Why? Is it because you value your hard earned dollar? Why do we not just open the borders and let everyone in if life is so valuable? 

And we as a society are already hypocrites in this manner. Megan's Law makes people who have already served punishment go around door to door and profess their crimes, yet a paroled murderer doesn't have to do that. Why? 

Again, at the risk of sounding like a barbarian, our society isn't set up to value life. We don't even live in a democracy anymore, just a corporate oligarchy, where Walmart has more power than you or I ever will. 

MPJC wrote:

Civilized people see humans as intrinsically valuable - that is, valuable in and of themselves, irrespective of their value as a means to another's ends. That's...

Civilized people see humans as intrinsically valuable - that is, valuable in and of themselves, irrespective of their value as a means to another's ends. That's why we shouldn't do things like round up people with nothing material to offer anyone and no family connections and harvest their organs. Our whole system of medical ethics is founded on this principle - not based on actual practices or conventions, but on rational principles. You on the other hand, are committing the naturalistic fallacy: inferring an ought from an is (drawing conclusions about how things ought to be based on how things currently are) because you have no idea how to engage in philosophical reasoning. It's embarrassing.  

Even the wrongness of stealing is grounded in the idea that by stealing from someone, you are exploiting them as a mere means to an end without regard for their interests. Persons have their own interests and ends, unlike mere tools that don't care how they are used, That's why the value of persons is not defined by the degree to which they are resources for others. If you don't grant that, then why object to stealing in the first place (other than the brute fact that you don't like it, but why should anyone give a shit about that if persons' interests don't matter?)?

 

TooTallJason wrote:

Alright, let's ignore the bike theft at Mini-O's and get philosophical, because let's be real this guy isn't the same as a thief who steals a...

Alright, let's ignore the bike theft at Mini-O's and get philosophical, because let's be real this guy isn't the same as a thief who steals a loaf of bread for their hunger. This guy was stealing strictly for personal gain.

BUT if we're saying life is more valuable than property, then why aren't we, as functioning societies, feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, and providing free healthcare? Doing those will prevent far more theft than cutting off hands, but we don't do that either? Why? Is it because you value your hard earned dollar? Why do we not just open the borders and let everyone in if life is so valuable? 

And we as a society are already hypocrites in this manner. Megan's Law makes people who have already served punishment go around door to door and profess their crimes, yet a paroled murderer doesn't have to do that. Why? 

Again, at the risk of sounding like a barbarian, our society isn't set up to value life. We don't even live in a democracy anymore, just a corporate oligarchy, where Walmart has more power than you or I ever will. 

MPJC wrote:

Civilized people see humans as intrinsically valuable - that is, valuable in and of themselves, irrespective of their value as a means to another's ends. That's...

Civilized people see humans as intrinsically valuable - that is, valuable in and of themselves, irrespective of their value as a means to another's ends. That's why we shouldn't do things like round up people with nothing material to offer anyone and no family connections and harvest their organs. Our whole system of medical ethics is founded on this principle - not based on actual practices or conventions, but on rational principles. You on the other hand, are committing the naturalistic fallacy: inferring an ought from an is (drawing conclusions about how things ought to be based on how things currently are) because you have no idea how to engage in philosophical reasoning. It's embarrassing.  

Even the wrongness of stealing is grounded in the idea that by stealing from someone, you are exploiting them as a mere means to an end without regard for their interests. Persons have their own interests and ends, unlike mere tools that don't care how they are used, That's why the value of persons is not defined by the degree to which they are resources for others. If you don't grant that, then why object to stealing in the first place (other than the brute fact that you don't like it, but why should anyone give a shit about that if persons' interests don't matter?)?

 

Gravel wrote:

This is very well said, but I respectfully disagree with one of your foundational statements. While I agree that all humans are intrinsically valuable, (All men...

This is very well said, but I respectfully disagree with one of your foundational statements. While I agree that all humans are intrinsically valuable, (All men are created equal..) I’d offer that the intrinsic value of a human isn’t a permanent thing, it’s only true at creation. The lives we live, the choices we make, the way we live up to our personal ability, (or don’t), all define our current value to humanity. A wasted life may be great fun for the person who decides not to contribute to the common good, but it ultimately drags us down as a group. A thief is a drain on the group success and that’s why theft and other crimes should be discouraged in some effective way. 

What would the world be like if everyone behaved like the guy who’s the topic of this thread? Bunch of thieves would be a crappy culture..

 

Acocountylaw wrote:

A reliable source with the case said that it is believed this guy bought 2 bikes that were disassembled from another party at the track.  Evidently...

A reliable source with the case said that it is believed this guy bought 2 bikes that were disassembled from another party at the track.  Evidently they searched the guys rig high and low and it was determined he was not in possession of several main components to the vehicles that he was original though to have been the one to disassemble. Namely a $2000 battery to a Talaria along with many other parts that one would think he would have had if he had been the party responsible for the disassembly. They also located a bill of sale during the search that had both vehicles listed along with the date it occurred and the selling parties signature.  The other party wasn’t immediately searched for untill the search warrant turned up this  information and by that time almost everyone camped  in that area had loaded up and left.  The guy and his family seem just as much victims as the family’s who had their bikes stolen if not more at this point.  If these fact are indeed true which I believe them to be.  I feel horrible for them after reading the sick and down right twisted comments ppl are posting.   This could have happened to anyone considering there isn’t anyway for a member of the public to check vins to see if they are stollen or clean at the time of purchase.   Just remember it could easily happen to you any time you purchase something from a private party you don’t know. 

8tensolutions wrote:

Let's see.....you created a new account with a law enforcement badge to say this is all false?  So that means the charges have been dropped and...

Let's see.....you created a new account with a law enforcement badge to say this is all false?  So that means the charges have been dropped and he has been released from jail?  

Acocountylaw wrote:

No, the charges will most likely be raise if anything Under Florida Statute 812.019, the crime of Dealing in Stolen Property.   Sadly for the...

No, the charges will most likely be raise if anything Under Florida Statute 812.019, the crime of Dealing in Stolen Property.   Sadly for the family it carries a much harsher punishment. 

TooTallJason wrote:

Alright, let's ignore the bike theft at Mini-O's and get philosophical, because let's be real this guy isn't the same as a thief who steals a...

Alright, let's ignore the bike theft at Mini-O's and get philosophical, because let's be real this guy isn't the same as a thief who steals a loaf of bread for their hunger. This guy was stealing strictly for personal gain.

BUT if we're saying life is more valuable than property, then why aren't we, as functioning societies, feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, and providing free healthcare? Doing those will prevent far more theft than cutting off hands, but we don't do that either? Why? Is it because you value your hard earned dollar? Why do we not just open the borders and let everyone in if life is so valuable? 

And we as a society are already hypocrites in this manner. Megan's Law makes people who have already served punishment go around door to door and profess their crimes, yet a paroled murderer doesn't have to do that. Why? 

Again, at the risk of sounding like a barbarian, our society isn't set up to value life. We don't even live in a democracy anymore, just a corporate oligarchy, where Walmart has more power than you or I ever will. 

MPJC wrote:

Civilized people see humans as intrinsically valuable - that is, valuable in and of themselves, irrespective of their value as a means to another's ends. That's...

Civilized people see humans as intrinsically valuable - that is, valuable in and of themselves, irrespective of their value as a means to another's ends. That's why we shouldn't do things like round up people with nothing material to offer anyone and no family connections and harvest their organs. Our whole system of medical ethics is founded on this principle - not based on actual practices or conventions, but on rational principles. You on the other hand, are committing the naturalistic fallacy: inferring an ought from an is (drawing conclusions about how things ought to be based on how things currently are) because you have no idea how to engage in philosophical reasoning. It's embarrassing.  

Even the wrongness of stealing is grounded in the idea that by stealing from someone, you are exploiting them as a mere means to an end without regard for their interests. Persons have their own interests and ends, unlike mere tools that don't care how they are used, That's why the value of persons is not defined by the degree to which they are resources for others. If you don't grant that, then why object to stealing in the first place (other than the brute fact that you don't like it, but why should anyone give a shit about that if persons' interests don't matter?)?

 

Gravel wrote:

This is very well said, but I respectfully disagree with one of your foundational statements. While I agree that all humans are intrinsically valuable, (All men...

This is very well said, but I respectfully disagree with one of your foundational statements. While I agree that all humans are intrinsically valuable, (All men are created equal..) I’d offer that the intrinsic value of a human isn’t a permanent thing, it’s only true at creation. The lives we live, the choices we make, the way we live up to our personal ability, (or don’t), all define our current value to humanity. A wasted life may be great fun for the person who decides not to contribute to the common good, but it ultimately drags us down as a group. A thief is a drain on the group success and that’s why theft and other crimes should be discouraged in some effective way. 

What would the world be like if everyone behaved like the guy who’s the topic of this thread? Bunch of thieves would be a crappy culture..

 

kijen wrote:

Seems like a lot of arrogance for the rights of humans, like we deserve to be treated special. Bottom line we are just another animal species...

Seems like a lot of arrogance for the rights of humans, like we deserve to be treated special. Bottom line we are just another animal species on planet earth. And were the only animal destroying our own planet. We are not all created equal, thats why were are called individuals, by law we have equal opportunity, look at sports, it defines individual abilities. Not some made up human BS. Humans behave well, some behave bad, for the sake of not living in anarchy, we have laws. humans have the ability to follow or not, and deal with the consequences. Not sure folks make life so hard, all we really need is the 10 commandments, all the others laws just provide excuses etc...

Life is great or life sucks, depends on our choices, for the most part.

 

MPJC wrote:

Civilized people see humans as intrinsically valuable - that is, valuable in and of themselves, irrespective of their value as a means to another's ends. That's...

Civilized people see humans as intrinsically valuable - that is, valuable in and of themselves, irrespective of their value as a means to another's ends. That's why we shouldn't do things like round up people with nothing material to offer anyone and no family connections and harvest their organs. Our whole system of medical ethics is founded on this principle - not based on actual practices or conventions, but on rational principles. You on the other hand, are committing the naturalistic fallacy: inferring an ought from an is (drawing conclusions about how things ought to be based on how things currently are) because you have no idea how to engage in philosophical reasoning. It's embarrassing.  

Even the wrongness of stealing is grounded in the idea that by stealing from someone, you are exploiting them as a mere means to an end without regard for their interests. Persons have their own interests and ends, unlike mere tools that don't care how they are used, That's why the value of persons is not defined by the degree to which they are resources for others. If you don't grant that, then why object to stealing in the first place (other than the brute fact that you don't like it, but why should anyone give a shit about that if persons' interests don't matter?)?

 

Gravel wrote:

This is very well said, but I respectfully disagree with one of your foundational statements. While I agree that all humans are intrinsically valuable, (All men...

This is very well said, but I respectfully disagree with one of your foundational statements. While I agree that all humans are intrinsically valuable, (All men are created equal..) I’d offer that the intrinsic value of a human isn’t a permanent thing, it’s only true at creation. The lives we live, the choices we make, the way we live up to our personal ability, (or don’t), all define our current value to humanity. A wasted life may be great fun for the person who decides not to contribute to the common good, but it ultimately drags us down as a group. A thief is a drain on the group success and that’s why theft and other crimes should be discouraged in some effective way. 

What would the world be like if everyone behaved like the guy who’s the topic of this thread? Bunch of thieves would be a crappy culture..

 

Question wrote:

Guys you are too much in philosophy :) They don't understand education, values, etc so you got to adapt to how they think, most are f...

Guys you are too much in philosophy They don't understand education, values, etc so you got to adapt to how they think, most are f... up and just fu... stupid. They just understand a slap if they do wrong (imo why we have police, justice, jails, etc).

MPJC wrote:

10 commandments? Ok. If you’re a Christian, today is your Sabbath. According to the Old Testament, typing things on Vital MX would be a sin punishable...

10 commandments? Ok. If you’re a Christian, today is your Sabbath. According to the Old Testament, typing things on Vital MX would be a sin punishable by death. If you’re Jewish then you better not be working on your bike or riding on Saturday. If you’re none of the above, why the 10 commandments? Have you read them and judged them morally correct? If so, why do you need them? Just keep making your own moral judgments. Is the silliness of your suggestion evident yet?

MPJC wrote:

10 commandments? Ok. If you’re a Christian, today is your Sabbath. According to the Old Testament, typing things on Vital MX would be a sin punishable...

10 commandments? Ok. If you’re a Christian, today is your Sabbath. According to the Old Testament, typing things on Vital MX would be a sin punishable by death. If you’re Jewish then you better not be working on your bike or riding on Saturday. If you’re none of the above, why the 10 commandments? Have you read them and judged them morally correct? If so, why do you need them? Just keep making your own moral judgments. Is the silliness of your suggestion evident yet?

Magoofan wrote:

Ummm     completely wrong.    

MPJC wrote:

Civilized people see humans as intrinsically valuable - that is, valuable in and of themselves, irrespective of their value as a means to another's ends. That's...

Civilized people see humans as intrinsically valuable - that is, valuable in and of themselves, irrespective of their value as a means to another's ends. That's why we shouldn't do things like round up people with nothing material to offer anyone and no family connections and harvest their organs. Our whole system of medical ethics is founded on this principle - not based on actual practices or conventions, but on rational principles. You on the other hand, are committing the naturalistic fallacy: inferring an ought from an is (drawing conclusions about how things ought to be based on how things currently are) because you have no idea how to engage in philosophical reasoning. It's embarrassing.  

Even the wrongness of stealing is grounded in the idea that by stealing from someone, you are exploiting them as a mere means to an end without regard for their interests. Persons have their own interests and ends, unlike mere tools that don't care how they are used, That's why the value of persons is not defined by the degree to which they are resources for others. If you don't grant that, then why object to stealing in the first place (other than the brute fact that you don't like it, but why should anyone give a shit about that if persons' interests don't matter?)?

 

Gravel wrote:

This is very well said, but I respectfully disagree with one of your foundational statements. While I agree that all humans are intrinsically valuable, (All men...

This is very well said, but I respectfully disagree with one of your foundational statements. While I agree that all humans are intrinsically valuable, (All men are created equal..) I’d offer that the intrinsic value of a human isn’t a permanent thing, it’s only true at creation. The lives we live, the choices we make, the way we live up to our personal ability, (or don’t), all define our current value to humanity. A wasted life may be great fun for the person who decides not to contribute to the common good, but it ultimately drags us down as a group. A thief is a drain on the group success and that’s why theft and other crimes should be discouraged in some effective way. 

What would the world be like if everyone behaved like the guy who’s the topic of this thread? Bunch of thieves would be a crappy culture..

 

Question wrote:

Guys you are too much in philosophy :) They don't understand education, values, etc so you got to adapt to how they think, most are f...

Guys you are too much in philosophy They don't understand education, values, etc so you got to adapt to how they think, most are f... up and just fu... stupid. They just understand a slap if they do wrong (imo why we have police, justice, jails, etc).

MPJC wrote:

There’s no doubt that some people add more value to society than others. However, value that is measured by factors such as relative contributions to others...

There’s no doubt that some people add more value to society than others. However, value that is measured by factors such as relative contributions to others is extrinsic value. Extrinsic value can vary widely. Intrinsic value is a function of the kind of being you are (eg. a being whose wellbeing matters to itself). That is not variable in the same way. Someone who is, for example, in a coma has little extrinsic value - nothing really much to offer others. They still deserve to be treated with dignity because that matters to the kind of being they are, even if they can’t presently be aware of that. 
 

Things become more tricky when people actively disregard their duty to respect others - they fail to treat others with the respect due them, especially in egregious ways. Stealing, raping, killing, etc are especially egregious examples. They surely forfeit something by doing so. Figuring out what is the question. They are still humans, deserving at least some sort of moral consideration, which is why punishment not proportional to the crime is unjust. That’s why something like theft - which is a property crime - is not as bad as a crime like rape, murder, or mutilation. The object of justice should be to make the victim whole - restore what has been lost. To take something that can’t be replaced (eg a hand) as punishment for taking something that can be replaced (property) is disproportionate. (Factor in the injury to the victim’s psyche and it could make sense to say more is owed than was taken, within reason). 
 

This principle of proportionality makes sense of severe punishments like capital punishment when what has been taken can’t be replaced. But it doesn’t justify torture just for the sake of retribution. Retribution is irrational - it achieves nothing since it doesn’t actually restore anything. The rest of us deserve to be kept safe from those known to be dangerous - this may include ending a perpetrator”s life. But inflicting suffering just to satisfy a sadistic sense of blood lust is egregious and if that’s what someone wants, that someone either hasn’t thought things through or is simply not a good person. 

MPJC wrote:

10 commandments? Ok. If you’re a Christian, today is your Sabbath. According to the Old Testament, typing things on Vital MX would be a sin punishable...

10 commandments? Ok. If you’re a Christian, today is your Sabbath. According to the Old Testament, typing things on Vital MX would be a sin punishable by death. If you’re Jewish then you better not be working on your bike or riding on Saturday. If you’re none of the above, why the 10 commandments? Have you read them and judged them morally correct? If so, why do you need them? Just keep making your own moral judgments. Is the silliness of your suggestion evident yet?

Magoofan wrote:

Ummm     completely wrong.    

MPJC wrote:

That’s quite an argument you’ve got there