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Why is Webb not being penalized for this but sexton is? AMA trying to influence the outcome of a chship is bullshit
No one who races can have a doubt that Chase gained a big advantage by jumping the double and Webb gained almost nothing by his wheels barely leaving the ground on the single. No excuse for Chase as it had two flashing lights on that jump!
So reading the rule that was posted above, "Riders must show extreme caution........ wheels of the motorcycle must not leave the ground between the flag and the incident". "Between the flag and the incident" is the way the AMA chose to word the rule. I do NOT disagree with the penalty the AMA handed out to Sexton, but there is room for argument.
Actually it has nothing to do with gaining an advantage. Jumping on a Red Cross flag is about safety. That is what the penalty is for UNLESS a race position is gained, then a penalty is assessed on both the safety violation and the position gained.
Unlike most people, including myself previously in this thread, I actually just went and read the rule book. You actually are allowed to jump on a Red Cross flag as long as you don't clear the next obstacle.
https://amasupercross.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/2023-AMA-Supercros… (page 28)
Section 4.16 e 5. The riders must do all the obstacles individually, I.E. NO double, triple, step on/off, etc. until clear of the incident.
The issue here isn't even about the Red Cross flag which makes it even more confusing since that is what the AMA said it is about. It is actually about the red light on the double. Neither Cooper nor Chase cleared the obstacle the Red Cross flag was on (the small double) and they did clear "the incident" (Deano riding backwards) before the face of the big double. But the red light was flashing on the big double which Chase doubled on and that brings out the penalty.
I think the reality is that the red light on that double shouldn't have been on as nothing was going on there but I understand and agree that the riders have to follow the rules regardless of whether or not the officials are using the flags/lights correctly.
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Here is what bothers me. Had the roles been reversed then Roger would have argued that Coop was past the rider and the rider was no longer down anyway. He would have argued passionately and the AMA would have caved and given Coop a verbal warning, that is how it may have gone down were the roles reversed. It’s the inconsistent and influenced enforcement of rules or penalties that makes the AMA suck as a governing body. Now the championship is less fun to watch…..and Barcia is still not on probation ….but Anderson….he is evil. Fair?? Right….
Edit: 731’s posting of the 2023 rule book blows my shit below out of the water, but I’ll leave it here. Also interesting to note that the rule book states a “blatant violation,” so splitting hairs over Coop leaving the ground wouldn’t have been an issue anyways. About that time he cut the track though. 😆
Chase’s violation of the rule was more egregious than Webb’s, for sure, but why attempt to compare the two at all? The rule states that wheels must not leave the ground. Had Coop slowed down more than he did, he could have kept his bike on the ground. Others did just that. He clearly jumped. This isn’t hard.
Then again, Coop is also the one a couple years back that jumped off track and through the inside of a corner, blew a tuff block out of the way, blocked passed someone (Tomac, maybe) and continued on like nothing happened. The AMA decided that wasn’t cutting the track and gaining an advantage.
Im very confused. I just watched this video Denny Stephenson posted.
where is the actual accident? Is it the guy that's on the small double landing Before the Big double whos going backward on the track? If so, isn't Sexton technically passed the point of "Red Flag Caution?" What am I missing here? Thats not illegal?
Lastly, the only thing I can think of is maybe they have RED LIGHTS on the Big Double? But, again, theres no accident there, so they lights shouldnt of been on, especially when its AFTER the situation.
I see this as a very gray area and Honda probably should take action.
Arent the lights for anything after that area? I mean... you cant see lights if you havent got to them yet. (Espescially is your going up and going on jumps you might not see something ahead that wouldnt need to be there in the first place)
just my .02 on that, i might be missing some info though also.
LMAO.... like clockwork!
You know how this is total bullshit.... because Tomac is the darling of this sport. Webb is the red-headed stepchild that even the media doesn't really like.
As the rules are written, in my opinion there is a valid protest if the penalty is from sending the big double. He was past the incident. The argument could be made that you should always roll a jump whenever the red lights are flashing, and that's probably the safest thing to do because you might not be able to know what's ahead, but the facts of this case are there was no hazard on the track ahead and he was past the incident.
The rule is: if the red cross flag is out...you roll. It doesn't matter if there is a downed rider there or not. The AMA does not want any rider questioning what needs to be done (ie not seeing a rider down). Lights on/flags waving...you roll. Chase clearly said he was "confused on what to do".
Weege outlines the rule here. Start @ 5:00
It is 100% on Chase here. There is no question. ...and it's not the first time Chase has done this.
There sure as hell wouldn't be this much outrage if the tables were turned and it was Webb who jumped as Chase did.
In my opinion there was no reason for that red light to be on. I don't know why Deano was riding backwards on the track (I thought that was strictly prohibited) but there is no reason why he would've been after the face of the big double because he could've easily gone off the track to get re-oriented as there were no tough blocks in the gap of that double.
It doesn't excuse Chase jumping but I think the decision to turn that light on deserves scrutiny.
From the rulebook.
4.15 On-Track Regulations
No rider may ride in such a manner as to endanger life or limb of other riders, officials or the public.
No one, except riders officially entered, may ride or practice on the racecourse on the day of the event without approval from the AMA.
Unofficial practice on the day of the race is prohibited.
Unless directed to do so by Race Direction or a designee, no one will be permitted to ride a motorcycle in the wrong direction on the track.
I agree with everything you said, but I'm not sure how what I said is "protest what you don't like". What Sexton did was glaringly wrong, what Webb did was in the grey area.
Ok, now that I read this, I take back what I said about Webb being in a grey area. He did nothing wrong per the rulebook.
So because an incompetent flagger had a medical flag out *with no rider down on the track*- the ama gets to possibly interfere in the title chase?
The rule is fine...but the medical flag (and red light) was used INCORRECTLY in this case. And that is the rest of the story.
This image shows why the red flag was out.
At first dean's leg was stuck in the bike! Luckily it didn't break him, or it woulda been a red flag in that location.
I saw someone call flagger incompetent.. sorry bud, you're reaching..
I laugh at the "wheels on the ground" folk.. I don't think anyone saying that has ridden on a sx track lol. That verbage should pertain to amateur racing. The ama needs to write a clearer version of the rule.
I still maintain that chase got it because he ACCELERATED past Dean to clear the booter.
Red tough blocks are not the best option for a section with a red light.
just another way they can control outcomes.... god i miss the 90s
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Why isn’t anyone addressing the fact that Chase is the only guy that didn’t see the lights? Ya he said he did. Look at every still photo you see of Sexton. His head is down. He can’t find lines late in races, the track seems to grab him a lot more than others. His head is always straight down. In the hundreds of pictures I have taken of him. He’s always looking straight down at his front fender. Everyone seems to dance around this. Pro qb’s look at photos when they are on the sidelines . There is a reason!!! Check out some stills of Chase.
Not even close to the same thing..
Save the bullshit whinging.
This is about rider, medical team, track workers safety and nothing else. Riders need to know what to do when the red cross flag is waving/lights are on. It doesn't matter whether or not the riders or YOU see a rider down. The flag/lights mean ROLL.
Once again....Chase said he was "confused about what to do". It's the 2nd time he's jumped on a red cross flag. You'd think he'd have learned the 1st time.
Grow up.
If I correctly remember, RD5 was docked positions and Anderson was given the win.
Anybody remember the details of that race/incident?
Coop playing chess again.
His comment on the podium "I thought the penalty was coming" I'm guessing he thought Chase was going to be docked the race win so he didn't push to catch him any longer....all he had to do was fend off Eli who was no longer a factor. Coop was close to Sexton up until the red cross flag incident...no need to push it after that.
Coop playing strategies like the master he is.
I get what you're saying but don't you think it would have been better to push for the win? No matter if Chase was docked or not Webb wasn't going to gain anymore points on Tomac cruising to 2nd place. There's 3 more points up for grabs had he went for the win. It's not this brilliant scheme you're making it out to be.
You can't just say there's no need to push because a penalty is coming. There's literally 3 more points right in front of you. The rulebook is pretty consistent on this rule since it came out. He wasn't going to lose the win.
I don't comment much on this forum, but I do think I have something to add to this. As a father and a business owner, I try to limit disputes by setting standards that can be defined very clearly. That way when an infraction or mistake occurs, we all know the rules and the level of punishment or reprimanding that should be levied by those predetermined guidelines. Anger and resentment often stems from perceived, or real, inconsistencies. As you stated, the rule is in place for safety, not just for the riders, but also the crew involved. Chase clearly violated these rules that are very specifically laid out. You cannot allow your wheels to leave the ground as you are not in complete control of your motorcycle when you cannot apply the brakes or make quick turns at a moments notice.
Which leads me to Cooper. The rule clearly states, wheels on the ground for the very reason I listed above. Fan of Webb or not, fan of Chase or not, the rule needs to be applied as written so there is no inconsistency. I think this is where most people who are "whinging" are frustrated. The AMA has clearly determined that it is safer when all wheels are in contact with the ground, and personally I agree with that ruling, therefore anyone who violates that rule, whether you think "he did his damnedist" to not jump, should be penalized for breaking that rule - wheels ON thee ground. Further, go ahead and dock Tomac if his wheels left the ground, but from my view from the coach, it didn't look like they did and he truly rolled the jumps. I could be wrong there as the footage isn't as clear and I wasn't there.
Apply the rules consistently and you will have less ambiguity, and less bickering. Everyone knows where the line is, and it cannot be crossed without a penalty.
Full disclosure, I am a fan of both riders for different reasons, Chase is fast and talented, Webb is gritty and just finds a way to win. i can respect BOTH. They have each contributed in their own way to make it an exciting series. For the AMA to "interfere" with this by not strictly applying their own stated rules will only lead to Vital message boards blowing up....but let's be honest, that would probably happen anyway.
I beleive there are a lot of people out there who are not as vocal on forums as some may be...that feel the same way I do. I don't want anyone to be able to say Webb got this Championship, if he goes on to win, because he wasn't docked points 7 races ago.
Respectfully...
I agree, I want to see Webb push for the win. ...but it's easy to say sitting in my comfy couch.
Can't say for sure what is in Webbs head. ...but he historically does play the long game and places his bets accordingly.
You know Webb wants to win and maximize points... is it worth the added risk to attempt in certain cases? Only he knows.
Coop is not only a genius and master strategist, he is also clairvoyant and knew Plessinger would catch a boot and crash
I totally forgot about AP somehow. So he would have been racing for what he thought was 2 more points in the moment.
A well thought out and written response. ^^^^
I'm not the AMA (thankfully), but I can only assume they are looking at effort to abide by the rule. The riders are flying at high speed into that corner....then they see the flag waving and stamp on the binders. Go back and examine it a bunch of times. Even Barcia behind Webb caught air going into that first jump. Webbs, Barcias and Tomacs wheels all left the ground to varying degree on every one of the features they "rolled" over. These guys are making the best effort to meet the rule....you can't just roll over some of these jumps without wheels leaving the ground....be it just inches. Watch it....you can see it.
Chase launched off that last jump...that is what bit him. I missed that during the race first time I watched...but I did catch Webb catching air and thought "oh shit".
A lot of the posts in this thread complaining are due to the hate people have for Webb/Roger/KTM....that crap just gets old.
Full disclosure, if Webb had done what Chase had done, I would be completely on board with the 7 point penalty administered to him as well.
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