End the AMA Production Rule in Motocross

davis224
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7/21/2022 3:58am
kpiper wrote:
Want to help 'save' the sport of motocross? Ending the production rule would be a good step. Bring back works bikes.
Please explain how that will "save the sport".
kpiper wrote:
Said it would help. If you were around during the time of works bikes things were more exciting for the fans. There were plenty of small...
Said it would help. If you were around during the time of works bikes things were more exciting for the fans. There were plenty of small teams and privateers as well. We all did just fine.
Correlation is not causation
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philG
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7/21/2022 4:07am
tmphotoart wrote:
[b][i]The pinnacle class of the sport should also be the pinnacle of equipment.[/i] [/b] The fallacy of "keeping costs down" by using production base bikes has...
The pinnacle class of the sport should also be the pinnacle of equipment.

The fallacy of "keeping costs down" by using production base bikes has gone out the window with the addition of Factory Editions.

Works bikes will bring in more bike manufacturers like Beta, Triumph, TM without the restrictive AMA homologation rule.

Works bikes will wipe out the stagnation there is in the sport with boring production bikes - technologic advancement should be race tested and celebrated as a key element in the sport.

If one bike company can build one model to be raced as three different brands, then another company can build one-off works bike to race test their unique ideas as a single entry. The barrier of entry should be open to all who want to compete, no matter the size and not filling the field with cookie-cutter models.

Works bikes are a Dream . . . the dream of what is possible with a little imagination and ingenuity.
A Racer's Dream of racing the most innovative machine on the planet.
A Dream of the paying racing fan to witness something great other than seeing the same SX-F model in their garage circle the track.

Make Motocross Exciting Again . . . Bring back the Works Bikes . . . Let's Dream Again!




Thats a great point of view, but its totally wrong.

Every form of racing where there are 'no rules' is the worst type.. less participants, and less chance of those participants providing a good race

Unless you can sell what you race, where is the return.
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7/21/2022 4:41am
kpiper wrote:
What are the 'good' reasons? Why can't it be overturned? Rules get changed all the time. They got rid of two strokes.
Langhammx wrote:
Factory (Works) bikes are too costly for the OEM’s to R&D and produce one-off parts. The Factory (Works) bikes are unfair to the rest of the...
Factory (Works) bikes are too costly for the OEM’s to R&D and produce one-off parts.
The Factory (Works) bikes are unfair to the rest of the riders and would actually hurt the sport at this time. The stock bikes are so good nowadays, that it’s unnecessary to build bikes that would ruin the budgets.
The money they were spending on these one-off bikes is now being paid to the riders on the Factory teams. They can’t afford to do both.
kpiper wrote:
Honda didn't have the best production bikes in 1981. They were garbage. But they advanced their works bikes and became the dominant team (and bike) which...
Honda didn't have the best production bikes in 1981. They were garbage. But they advanced their works bikes and became the dominant team (and bike) which lead to Honda having the best production bikes by 1884.
In 1985 Honda had what was arguably the best 250 factory bike ever produced, a thing of pure beauty. That bike handled and rode like a pile of crap, the electronic power valve made the motor very unmanageable and they never got the chassis to settle properly. Most of the team rider preferred practicing on the modified production bikes. That bike was the most expensive factory bike ever produced.

Suzukis 84 factory 250 was a piece of art, gas tank where the seat is and the air filter where the gas tank was. It was a two way idea, one was to lower the center of gravity, two was to get a cleaner path for fuel into carb. That bike was a literal piece of junk that nobody wanted to ride.

The suspension technology from both eventually made it to production, but nothing else.

The moral of the story, just because you can, doesn’t mean you need to. Today’s production bikes are sooo good, because there is no works bikes, technology is getting to the consumer at a faster rate now, works bike technology didn’t get into production for 5-6 years. Kawasaki came out with forks technology in 87, that Honda was using in 82.

Honesty, imo, if they did bring back the works rules, you wouldn’t see big changes, you’d probably only see chassis changes where guys would have different frames to choose from. Suspension of todays 450 factory bikes are already full works, so you wouldn’t even see a change there.
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yz763
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7/21/2022 4:49am
Why not allow each factory to have one works bike in the pits? Give them a small points deduction for running the works bikes. Could be a good opportunity for a guy like Brayton or Reed or even one of the top privateers to race/R&D but not take it too seriously and you still get your works bikes.

How about actually defining on paper what is a factory team or privateer/privateer team and allowing the privateers to race/R&D the works bikes? After all, those guys are the closest to the average consumer.

I’m just throwing spaghetti at the wall but I don’t think works bikes make the racing better. They do advance the industry and make it cool for people to see.
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wrc777
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7/21/2022 5:06am
Doesn't MXGP already have "works" bikes? If so then there is probably no benefit to the consumer for the US to have works bikes too. The fact that a privateer on a nearly stock, year old KTM 250 was able to holeshot and lead laps at a deep track like Redbud shows the rule is working as intended.

I am sure we can find a thread on Vital showing people complaining that bikes are updated too often and are too expensive. Any tech gained from running works bikes will just drive the cost of the production bikes up more.
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mxb2
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7/21/2022 5:39am
wrc777 wrote:
Doesn't MXGP already have "works" bikes? If so then there is probably no benefit to the consumer for the US to have works bikes too. The...
Doesn't MXGP already have "works" bikes? If so then there is probably no benefit to the consumer for the US to have works bikes too. The fact that a privateer on a nearly stock, year old KTM 250 was able to holeshot and lead laps at a deep track like Redbud shows the rule is working as intended.

I am sure we can find a thread on Vital showing people complaining that bikes are updated too often and are too expensive. Any tech gained from running works bikes will just drive the cost of the production bikes up more.
Ironic, people want cool high tech stuff,. But complain on prices. Cant have it both ways.
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kpiper
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7/21/2022 8:30am
tmphotoart wrote:
[b][i]The pinnacle class of the sport should also be the pinnacle of equipment.[/i] [/b] The fallacy of "keeping costs down" by using production base bikes has...
The pinnacle class of the sport should also be the pinnacle of equipment.

The fallacy of "keeping costs down" by using production base bikes has gone out the window with the addition of Factory Editions.

Works bikes will bring in more bike manufacturers like Beta, Triumph, TM without the restrictive AMA homologation rule.

Works bikes will wipe out the stagnation there is in the sport with boring production bikes - technologic advancement should be race tested and celebrated as a key element in the sport.

If one bike company can build one model to be raced as three different brands, then another company can build one-off works bike to race test their unique ideas as a single entry. The barrier of entry should be open to all who want to compete, no matter the size and not filling the field with cookie-cutter models.

Works bikes are a Dream . . . the dream of what is possible with a little imagination and ingenuity.
A Racer's Dream of racing the most innovative machine on the planet.
A Dream of the paying racing fan to witness something great other than seeing the same SX-F model in their garage circle the track.

Make Motocross Exciting Again . . . Bring back the Works Bikes . . . Let's Dream Again!




Thank you.
1
kpiper
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7/21/2022 8:37am Edited Date/Time 7/21/2022 8:44am
UpTiTe wrote:
In 1985 Honda had what was arguably the best 250 factory bike ever produced, a thing of pure beauty. That bike handled and rode like a...
In 1985 Honda had what was arguably the best 250 factory bike ever produced, a thing of pure beauty. That bike handled and rode like a pile of crap, the electronic power valve made the motor very unmanageable and they never got the chassis to settle properly. Most of the team rider preferred practicing on the modified production bikes. That bike was the most expensive factory bike ever produced.

Suzukis 84 factory 250 was a piece of art, gas tank where the seat is and the air filter where the gas tank was. It was a two way idea, one was to lower the center of gravity, two was to get a cleaner path for fuel into carb. That bike was a literal piece of junk that nobody wanted to ride.

The suspension technology from both eventually made it to production, but nothing else.

The moral of the story, just because you can, doesn’t mean you need to. Today’s production bikes are sooo good, because there is no works bikes, technology is getting to the consumer at a faster rate now, works bike technology didn’t get into production for 5-6 years. Kawasaki came out with forks technology in 87, that Honda was using in 82.

Honesty, imo, if they did bring back the works rules, you wouldn’t see big changes, you’d probably only see chassis changes where guys would have different frames to choose from. Suspension of todays 450 factory bikes are already full works, so you wouldn’t even see a change there.
You make some points I agree with and some I do not. Some of those works bikes were the most amazing motocross bikes ever made (at the time) and some riders loved them.

Ask Kenny Keylon how good the factory Honda was when he got to race it. He immediately started winning National motos. Ask Hannah how good that factory Honda was? He went there for no pay (reportedly) and won a ton of races.

Yet, privateers and small teams still flourished during this works bike era. I get it that works bikes were a budget breaker but that is a choice the factories should be able to make themselves in my opinion.
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early
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7/21/2022 8:45am
There's works bikes in MXGP and the series isn't any more interesting than US MX/SX, arguably less interesting.
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Leave Us To
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7/21/2022 9:09am Edited Date/Time 7/21/2022 10:40am
kpiper wrote:
Said it would help. If you were around during the time of works bikes things were more exciting for the fans. There were plenty of small...
Said it would help. If you were around during the time of works bikes things were more exciting for the fans. There were plenty of small teams and privateers as well. We all did just fine.
Way to generalize in an attempt to make a point. If you were around in the days of the works bikes please share the names of the teams that flourished. Your point "we all did just fine" is contradictory to your comment that you understand that it was a budget breaker for privateers.
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7/21/2022 9:36am
UpTiTe wrote:
In 1985 Honda had what was arguably the best 250 factory bike ever produced, a thing of pure beauty. That bike handled and rode like a...
In 1985 Honda had what was arguably the best 250 factory bike ever produced, a thing of pure beauty. That bike handled and rode like a pile of crap, the electronic power valve made the motor very unmanageable and they never got the chassis to settle properly. Most of the team rider preferred practicing on the modified production bikes. That bike was the most expensive factory bike ever produced.

Suzukis 84 factory 250 was a piece of art, gas tank where the seat is and the air filter where the gas tank was. It was a two way idea, one was to lower the center of gravity, two was to get a cleaner path for fuel into carb. That bike was a literal piece of junk that nobody wanted to ride.

The suspension technology from both eventually made it to production, but nothing else.

The moral of the story, just because you can, doesn’t mean you need to. Today’s production bikes are sooo good, because there is no works bikes, technology is getting to the consumer at a faster rate now, works bike technology didn’t get into production for 5-6 years. Kawasaki came out with forks technology in 87, that Honda was using in 82.

Honesty, imo, if they did bring back the works rules, you wouldn’t see big changes, you’d probably only see chassis changes where guys would have different frames to choose from. Suspension of todays 450 factory bikes are already full works, so you wouldn’t even see a change there.
kpiper wrote:
You make some points I agree with and some I do not. Some of those works bikes were the most amazing motocross bikes ever made (at...
You make some points I agree with and some I do not. Some of those works bikes were the most amazing motocross bikes ever made (at the time) and some riders loved them.

Ask Kenny Keylon how good the factory Honda was when he got to race it. He immediately started winning National motos. Ask Hannah how good that factory Honda was? He went there for no pay (reportedly) and won a ton of races.

Yet, privateers and small teams still flourished during this works bike era. I get it that works bikes were a budget breaker but that is a choice the factories should be able to make themselves in my opinion.
The 82 that Kenny rode and the 82-84 Hondas that Hannah rode were arguably the best factory bikes ever built. That 82 production bike that Keylon rode wasn’t even comparable to the 82 factory bike he rode. I had the opportunity to ride the 82 factory Honda, the motor and brakes were simply unbelievable at that time.

But the 85, which was the most expensive factory bike Honda ever built, was a bust.
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captmoto
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7/21/2022 10:02am
mxb2 wrote:
Ironic, people want cool high tech stuff,. But complain on prices. Cant have it both ways.
People complain about service intervals too. Nobody wants to replace a top end at 50 hours or a full top and bottom rebuild at 100 because the bike runs just fine. They want works bike performance but not works bike maintenance.
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7/21/2022 10:26am
westeast wrote:
Wouldn't it make it more expense to operate a team and nearly impossible for privateers to be remotely competitive?
Exactly!!!!
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mark_swart
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7/21/2022 10:59am
To be realistic, development has leveled off so much, what would a 'works bike' really even entail at this point? We still have weight limits, which might be the biggest area to make gains.

When bikes were changing significantly every year from the early 70s to the mid 80s, the works bike was way more of an advantage than it would be now, and it served a purpose to help drive that development.

I think the production rule was, and continues to be, an idea that is best for all involved. I don't think the positivies of ultra trick bikes or helping a boutique manufacturer get into pro racing a year or two earlier outweigh the long term benefits of the production rule.

Selfishly, as a vintage racer, I also like the production rule because any build that I do on 1986 or newer bikes can be made to look really close to the factory bikes of the era : ) !!!
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7/21/2022 11:18am
Broc Glover on the production Yamaha air hammer would like to enter the chat.
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7/21/2022 11:28am
Ryder D's (used) $41 000.00 practice bike up for grabs if you are interested and whilst you write the Cheque spare a though for the privateers and the smaller teams.

The production rule was brought in to bridge the gap between the bottom end and top end

Some of us members here know first hand what it entails to race a season at Pro level and If the production rule got thrown out then the series as we know it will crash.

It's fine the way it is with the current production rule, the gates are full. One area to better the sport would be to see better payouts to all riders who qualify.

Disagree? Look at MXGP and the often empty gates.
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kpiper
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7/21/2022 11:48am
kpiper wrote:
Said it would help. If you were around during the time of works bikes things were more exciting for the fans. There were plenty of small...
Said it would help. If you were around during the time of works bikes things were more exciting for the fans. There were plenty of small teams and privateers as well. We all did just fine.
Way to generalize in an attempt to make a point. If you were around in the days of the works bikes please share the names of...
Way to generalize in an attempt to make a point. If you were around in the days of the works bikes please share the names of the teams that flourished. Your point "we all did just fine" is contradictory to your comment that you understand that it was a budget breaker for privateers.
LOP to name one. DG to name two. There were more. There were privateers who won national motos back then.
kpiper
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7/21/2022 11:53am Edited Date/Time 7/21/2022 11:56am
Boomslang wrote:
Ryder D's (used) $41 000.00 practice bike up for grabs if you are interested and whilst you write the Cheque spare a though for the privateers...
Ryder D's (used) $41 000.00 practice bike up for grabs if you are interested and whilst you write the Cheque spare a though for the privateers and the smaller teams.

The production rule was brought in to bridge the gap between the bottom end and top end

Some of us members here know first hand what it entails to race a season at Pro level and If the production rule got thrown out then the series as we know it will crash.

It's fine the way it is with the current production rule, the gates are full. One area to better the sport would be to see better payouts to all riders who qualify.

Disagree? Look at MXGP and the often empty gates.
You make some good points. I don't think the production rule saved privateers though. There were tons of us back then before the rule. I remember a National that had over 100 entries in the 250 class.

Wasn't the production rule based on Yamaha wanting it to save money and to get rid of the threat of the claiming rule that the factories hated?

Why are the gates half empty in the MXGPs? I thought it was the travel part most likely?
gt80rider
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7/21/2022 11:57am
westeast wrote:
Wouldn't it make it more expense to operate a team and nearly impossible for privateers to be remotely competitive?
IMO.... whether it be a local D rider, or the most elite pro... speed is 90% rider... 10% bike.... a mid-pack rider will not start winning simply by riding a works bike... some elite pros could probably win on a bone stocker...

works bike are NEEDED... we need them to finally advance the tech on the bikes... a 2022 KX250 isn't that much different than one from 10 yrs ago... or even 20.... some would say closer to 40.... MTB keeps advancing their tech... IMO.. moto has been very stagnant since the early 80s, the last of the works bike era...

oh and.. the manufacturers.... they always say "pity us.. we are sooo poor! we simply can't afford to give you a new model, let alone a one off works bike!"... LOL.... the game is over.... the manufacturers have pocketed so much profit over the last 50 yrs... it's time they start using a small portion of that cash to actually give us new, improved, products...
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Motoxdoc
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7/21/2022 11:59am
kpiper wrote:
Want to help 'save' the sport of motocross? Ending the production rule would be a good step. Bring back works bikes.
I didn’t know motocross needed saving and how would exotic bikes do that?
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Gravel
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7/21/2022 12:00pm
Works bikes made going to the races a little better, but the production bikes of the time were often absolute junk. My 1982 CR250 was a nice looking POS. IMO, the “works bike” era made being a regular guy who loves to ride worse, production equipment was crap, but it got way better once the factory guys had to use it. So no, keep the production rules and tighten them up, that’s what makes for better equipment for the vast majority.
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early
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7/21/2022 12:09pm
gt80rider wrote:
IMO.... whether it be a local D rider, or the most elite pro... speed is 90% rider... 10% bike.... a mid-pack rider will not start winning...
IMO.... whether it be a local D rider, or the most elite pro... speed is 90% rider... 10% bike.... a mid-pack rider will not start winning simply by riding a works bike... some elite pros could probably win on a bone stocker...

works bike are NEEDED... we need them to finally advance the tech on the bikes... a 2022 KX250 isn't that much different than one from 10 yrs ago... or even 20.... some would say closer to 40.... MTB keeps advancing their tech... IMO.. moto has been very stagnant since the early 80s, the last of the works bike era...

oh and.. the manufacturers.... they always say "pity us.. we are sooo poor! we simply can't afford to give you a new model, let alone a one off works bike!"... LOL.... the game is over.... the manufacturers have pocketed so much profit over the last 50 yrs... it's time they start using a small portion of that cash to actually give us new, improved, products...
MTB devopment 2002-2022 = motocross development 1975-1995

New mtb development will be in the E-bike space, it's their version of 4 strokes.

Look at motogp, the only tech that has really trickled down to sport bikes recently is traction control/abs. Aero wings, shape-shifting suspension , carbon brakes, GPS mapping, CF frames, etc are not needed on consumer motorcycles.
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SX_336
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7/21/2022 12:34pm
Today’s Factory Riders and teams are already de-tuning 450’s because they have to much power, but we want to go full on Works bike? Supercross already wipes out 15%-20% of the factory riders and you want to put them on lighter more powerful machines?

After watching Supercross this year I’m convinced we don’t “need” 450 Supercross. The 250 class is doing everything the 450’s are. I could deal with “Works” 250’s, but I don’t see the need for 450’s.

The sport has changed SO much since the production rule went in to affect. I feel it’s good to have it. The racing is awesome. Privateers have it rough enough without having to worry about Works bikes. In the last 30 years they have learned that suspension has as much of affect on a bikes speed as the engine itself. That’s not including all the other materials and frame rigidity etc….There is no need for works 450’s. Manufacturers would probably laugh at the idea. We live in a different day and age.
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7/21/2022 12:49pm
kpiper wrote:
You make some good points. I don't think the production rule saved privateers though. There were tons of us back then before the rule. I remember...
You make some good points. I don't think the production rule saved privateers though. There were tons of us back then before the rule. I remember a National that had over 100 entries in the 250 class.

Wasn't the production rule based on Yamaha wanting it to save money and to get rid of the threat of the claiming rule that the factories hated?

Why are the gates half empty in the MXGPs? I thought it was the travel part most likely?
Quote you - Why are the gates half empty in the MXGPs? I thought it was the travel part most likely?

Yes, the gates have been mostly empty at away races due to the travel costs but one could argue that the budget is not available as it's been spent building these exquisite bikes. They need to be competitive at the races they do attend...you know the old adage...you can't bring a knife to a gun fight.
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moto9
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7/21/2022 12:54pm
loosing the production would be VERY, VERY BAD for anyone not having access to a works bike.
With the current production rule, we common folk get to purchase a bike that's fairly close
what the factory races,
that's good for us, privateers and non-factory teams.
And because non-factory teams couldn't compete they'd fold and probably loose privateer involvement as well.

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7/21/2022 1:05pm
westeast wrote:
Wouldn't it make it more expense to operate a team and nearly impossible for privateers to be remotely competitive?
gt80rider wrote:
IMO.... whether it be a local D rider, or the most elite pro... speed is 90% rider... 10% bike.... a mid-pack rider will not start winning...
IMO.... whether it be a local D rider, or the most elite pro... speed is 90% rider... 10% bike.... a mid-pack rider will not start winning simply by riding a works bike... some elite pros could probably win on a bone stocker...

works bike are NEEDED... we need them to finally advance the tech on the bikes... a 2022 KX250 isn't that much different than one from 10 yrs ago... or even 20.... some would say closer to 40.... MTB keeps advancing their tech... IMO.. moto has been very stagnant since the early 80s, the last of the works bike era...

oh and.. the manufacturers.... they always say "pity us.. we are sooo poor! we simply can't afford to give you a new model, let alone a one off works bike!"... LOL.... the game is over.... the manufacturers have pocketed so much profit over the last 50 yrs... it's time they start using a small portion of that cash to actually give us new, improved, products...
MTB keeps advancing their tech.

The advancing tech of MTB's has produced a theme that stands out like the proverbial sore thumb though. And that is just how many mountain bikes are pushing beyond the $10,000....for a bicycle with less than half the parts of a MX bike...and you still have to pedal it.

Ryder D's used PC bike at $41.000.00 is fucking cheap compared to Anderson's "production rule" factory bike. Then Anderson's bike is a lot cheaper than Roman Vebre's Factory Kawasaki GP bike.

For sure the spectacle of unique unlimited factory bikes would be nice to see but It will be at the detriment of the entire gate.

soggy
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7/21/2022 1:07pm Edited Date/Time 7/21/2022 1:09pm
I do t think a works bike would be that much different then a production bike at this point. All we’d see different is specialized frames for SX and MX. Otherwise I don’t think we’d see much ground breaking difference. MXGP has no rule and all we really see are different frames and swingarms that aren’t even really visible to the naked eye.

Maybe one area we’d see development is active suspension?
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wrc777
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7/21/2022 2:16pm
If we are going to talk about "works" parts we should probably talk about spec tires. Does Dunlop sell them to anyone at a National?
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Leave Us To
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7/21/2022 6:56pm
kpiper wrote:
LOP to name one. DG to name two. There were more. There were privateers who won national motos back then.
How many years was LOP around and how many riders? Think DG was around a little bit longer but you're still in the minority on Vital MX. The way things are working now are just fine with MXGP having the works machinery then AMA SX/MX with production machines.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. The sport has issues for sure but not having works bikes in the US certainly isn't one of them.
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7/22/2022 1:04am
Boomslang wrote:
Ryder D's (used) $41 000.00 practice bike up for grabs if you are interested and whilst you write the Cheque spare a though for the privateers...
Ryder D's (used) $41 000.00 practice bike up for grabs if you are interested and whilst you write the Cheque spare a though for the privateers and the smaller teams.

The production rule was brought in to bridge the gap between the bottom end and top end

Some of us members here know first hand what it entails to race a season at Pro level and If the production rule got thrown out then the series as we know it will crash.

It's fine the way it is with the current production rule, the gates are full. One area to better the sport would be to see better payouts to all riders who qualify.

Disagree? Look at MXGP and the often empty gates.
Please explain how the lack of a homologation rule in MXGP is the cause of a non-full gate? My guess, I don’t know for sure, is that it has more to do with high entry-fees and no payouts. Or it might be because of works-bikes, I dunno! -It’s got electrolytes!

Correlation and causation seems like a hard concept to grasp in this thread!
1

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