GP vs MX...I gotta say it

aees
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aees 6/9/2022 3:38pm
6/9/2022 3:38pm
SteveUrchin wrote:
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would...
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would struggle. It’s a comparison that is hard to make in my opinion I believe our series racers are better and our field is deeper.
aees wrote:
Herlings disagree 😄 He did ok when he was over 😉
SteveUrchin wrote:
Haha what did he race 2 races? And how many years ago? Florida was a GP so he had his own bike right? Are you referring...
Haha what did he race 2 races? And how many years ago? Florida was a GP so he had his own bike right? Are you referring to Iron man?
Iron man. No additional prep, standard US bike. Still able to work everyone.
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brimx153
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brimx153 6/9/2022 3:39pm
6/9/2022 3:39pm
SteveUrchin wrote:
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would...
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would struggle. It’s a comparison that is hard to make in my opinion I believe our series racers are better and our field is deeper.
If you want to say ama guy s are the fastest I can at least see your argument . But to say ama field is deeper than mxgp is just rediculous . Outside the top 10 in ama is a big drop in speed . GH 259 has finished straight up 15 th in GPS and gone out and won the week after .that is never happening in ama .
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Titan1
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Titan1 6/9/2022 3:40pm
6/9/2022 3:40pm
SteveUrchin wrote:
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would...
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would struggle. It’s a comparison that is hard to make in my opinion I believe our series racers are better and our field is deeper.
When the ama guys laid wood on the GP guys at the USGP’s a few years ago…were they riding ama frames or GP frames on their bikes?
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-MAVERICK- 6/9/2022 3:55pm
6/9/2022 3:55pm
SteveUrchin wrote:
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would...
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would struggle. It’s a comparison that is hard to make in my opinion I believe our series racers are better and our field is deeper.
Titan1 wrote:
When the ama guys laid wood on the GP guys at the USGP’s a few years ago…were they riding ama frames or GP frames on their...
When the ama guys laid wood on the GP guys at the USGP’s a few years ago…were they riding ama frames or GP frames on their bikes?
Production frame.
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hbdesigns913
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hbdesigns913 6/9/2022 4:01pm
6/9/2022 4:01pm Edited Date/Time 6/9/2022 4:03pm
plowboy wrote:
Ok, we've seen AC in the first two rounds. Granted he's retired, not been training/practicing but he didn't forget how to ride in one year. His...
Ok, we've seen AC in the first two rounds. Granted he's retired, not been training/practicing but he didn't forget how to ride in one year. His results are totally respectable. Last year he still ran up near the front in the GP's.

My point is...we've been told for years now that the outdoor GP specialists are just better than our series. I kinda bought into it.

When I see AC (a podium GP guy) finish where he has (hey, no disrespect...I love the guy)...I am having second thoughts about which side of the pond is really faster.

Will the question finally be answered at MXoN this year?
If you were at Ironman when Herlings showed up you would think differently

Edit: auto correct got me
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romain524
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romain524 6/9/2022 4:56pm
6/9/2022 4:56pm
davis224 wrote:
One thing I don't see talked about enough, line formations. It's what hurts us a little at the MXoN, like how everyone thought the track prep...
One thing I don't see talked about enough, line formations. It's what hurts us a little at the MXoN, like how everyone thought the track prep was weird at Red Bud 2018. The MXoN is vast majority MXGP riders carving the lines that are more sweeping, vs more point and shoot for the nationals. Now it's just Cairoli riding the lines made from a field of AMA riders. It's not everything, but it for sure plays a role
It’s one big difference too! I’m a Euro living in SoCal and I hate how the ruts form here… here they get into the ruts as fast as they can, hit the brakes hard and hold on the rear brake too long then clutch the bike to get out of the corner.
In the GP’s they release the rear brake as soon as they get in the rut, slow down more and roll the turn.
Its such a different riding style that it makes the track develop a different way.
It’s so cool to see the HRC Honda guys riding. They are what riding school should teach.
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aeffertz
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aeffertz 6/9/2022 5:00pm
6/9/2022 5:00pm
Nah. MXGP guys are the motocross specialists, as they should be since it’s their main focus. The AMA riders need to juggle both MX and SX each year, with MX getting less time than SX. AC’s results are no way an indication of how the two series match up.

I still think the MXGP guys are better at MX and the AMA riders are better at SX and probably more well rounded if each field of riders had to do compete in the same two series.

AC is doing a fun retirement run, don’t get it twisted.
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davis224
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davis224 6/9/2022 5:12pm
6/9/2022 5:12pm
Petrus Antonius wrote:
GP guys are more technical on rough tracks. GP guys are faster on a GP track. AMA guys are more wide open with big jumps. AMA...
GP guys are more technical on rough tracks. GP guys are faster on a GP track.

AMA guys are more wide open with big jumps. AMA guys are faster on a national track.

2 different types of racing, you can't really compare. Both have their own specialities
TbonesPop wrote:
On the big jumps thingy, Seewer just took his shirt off based on your comment
*cough* Coldenhoff at Red Bud *cough*
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bichwolf
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bichwolf 6/9/2022 5:36pm
6/9/2022 5:36pm
We had them covered for a decade. We lost unity and focus for whatever reason. It's so exciting to pull for the US against the crazy fast and technical Europeans and the rest of the planet. Sure hope we can get it together.
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steve.hackler.1 6/9/2022 6:08pm
6/9/2022 6:08pm
The GP tracks are more flowing and high speed and most of the time with little to no prep. Look at the track in Spain last week with the waist deep ruts made of concrete. Even the GP guys struggled.
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rohleder644
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rohleder644 6/9/2022 6:28pm
6/9/2022 6:28pm
If you don’t think the euros have us covered in mx and enduro, you’re fuckin high. They produce better all around riders. Plain and simple.
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FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 6/9/2022 7:20pm
6/9/2022 7:20pm
Or, elite riders are fast and incredibly talented regardless the series.
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mx691
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mx691 6/9/2022 7:21pm
6/9/2022 7:21pm
aees wrote:
Herlings disagree 😄 He did ok when he was over 😉
SteveUrchin wrote:
Haha what did he race 2 races? And how many years ago? Florida was a GP so he had his own bike right? Are you referring...
Haha what did he race 2 races? And how many years ago? Florida was a GP so he had his own bike right? Are you referring to Iron man?
aees wrote:
Iron man. No additional prep, standard US bike. Still able to work everyone.
He rode Canards bike with some personal tweaks.
(Ironman)
VanDan
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VanDan 6/9/2022 9:27pm
6/9/2022 9:27pm
He is nearly 37 years old, finished 6th in MXGP last year and has one title in the last seven MXGP seasons.

I think he is doing ok all things considered. He raced an amateur enduro race in Italy a month ago, KTM wanted him to arrive in USA earlier than he did and Rick Johnson expressed how bad his hands were beat just from a few 30s since landing and prior to racing Pala. He hasn't really prepared for success and that is a little disappointing as a fan, but he has nothing to prove.

Ultimately he is past his prime, struggling with the bike and is not 100% as he has alluded multiple times. It is a paid vacation, akin to Chad Reed racing two MXGP's in 2016.

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VanDan
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VanDan 6/9/2022 9:40pm
6/9/2022 9:40pm Edited Date/Time 6/9/2022 9:42pm
SteveUrchin wrote:
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would...
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would struggle. It’s a comparison that is hard to make in my opinion I believe our series racers are better and our field is deeper.
Josh Gilbert came over this year, scored more points at Pala than he did all season in MXGP in 2021.

Herlings raced Ironman, finished 1st overall.

Shaun Simpson raced Unadilla, finished 4th overall.

Ken De Dycker raced Hangtown, finished 9th overall.

Desalle raced Unadilla, finished 2nd overall. Also raced Thunder Valley and I think Muddy Creek, inside the top six,

Strijbos raced a couple, struggled a bit but still finished inside the top ten overall.

I'm sure in all cases these rider may have struggled to adjust to bike but the results were pretty good! The difference is, they had not retired and not nearly 37 years old.
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Titan1
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Titan1 6/9/2022 9:45pm
6/9/2022 9:45pm
SteveUrchin wrote:
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would...
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would struggle. It’s a comparison that is hard to make in my opinion I believe our series racers are better and our field is deeper.
VanDan wrote:
Josh Gilbert came over this year, scored more points at Pala than he did all season in MXGP in 2021. Herlings raced Ironman, finished 1st overall...
Josh Gilbert came over this year, scored more points at Pala than he did all season in MXGP in 2021.

Herlings raced Ironman, finished 1st overall.

Shaun Simpson raced Unadilla, finished 4th overall.

Ken De Dycker raced Hangtown, finished 9th overall.

Desalle raced Unadilla, finished 2nd overall. Also raced Thunder Valley and I think Muddy Creek, inside the top six,

Strijbos raced a couple, struggled a bit but still finished inside the top ten overall.

I'm sure in all cases these rider may have struggled to adjust to bike but the results were pretty good! The difference is, they had not retired and not nearly 37 years old.
How’d the Americans do at the most recent USGP’s?
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VanDan
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VanDan 6/9/2022 9:56pm
6/9/2022 9:56pm Edited Date/Time 6/9/2022 9:56pm
SteveUrchin wrote:
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would...
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would struggle. It’s a comparison that is hard to make in my opinion I believe our series racers are better and our field is deeper.
VanDan wrote:
Josh Gilbert came over this year, scored more points at Pala than he did all season in MXGP in 2021. Herlings raced Ironman, finished 1st overall...
Josh Gilbert came over this year, scored more points at Pala than he did all season in MXGP in 2021.

Herlings raced Ironman, finished 1st overall.

Shaun Simpson raced Unadilla, finished 4th overall.

Ken De Dycker raced Hangtown, finished 9th overall.

Desalle raced Unadilla, finished 2nd overall. Also raced Thunder Valley and I think Muddy Creek, inside the top six,

Strijbos raced a couple, struggled a bit but still finished inside the top ten overall.

I'm sure in all cases these rider may have struggled to adjust to bike but the results were pretty good! The difference is, they had not retired and not nearly 37 years old.
Titan1 wrote:
How’d the Americans do at the most recent USGP’s?
How'd they do in a GP in Europe recently, essentially as a bit of fun?

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Titan1
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Titan1 6/9/2022 10:14pm
6/9/2022 10:14pm Edited Date/Time 6/9/2022 10:16pm
VanDan wrote:
Josh Gilbert came over this year, scored more points at Pala than he did all season in MXGP in 2021. Herlings raced Ironman, finished 1st overall...
Josh Gilbert came over this year, scored more points at Pala than he did all season in MXGP in 2021.

Herlings raced Ironman, finished 1st overall.

Shaun Simpson raced Unadilla, finished 4th overall.

Ken De Dycker raced Hangtown, finished 9th overall.

Desalle raced Unadilla, finished 2nd overall. Also raced Thunder Valley and I think Muddy Creek, inside the top six,

Strijbos raced a couple, struggled a bit but still finished inside the top ten overall.

I'm sure in all cases these rider may have struggled to adjust to bike but the results were pretty good! The difference is, they had not retired and not nearly 37 years old.
Titan1 wrote:
How’d the Americans do at the most recent USGP’s?
VanDan wrote:
How'd they do in a GP in Europe recently, essentially as a bit of fun?

😂🤦‍♂️

Well they showed up at some GP’s in America, for a bit of fun, and did pretty darn good…a GP is a GP, or do, for example, Cairoli’s wins in Italy mean less some how, because they are in his home country?
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VanDan
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VanDan 6/9/2022 10:48pm
6/9/2022 10:48pm Edited Date/Time 6/9/2022 10:55pm
Titan1 wrote:
How’d the Americans do at the most recent USGP’s?
VanDan wrote:
How'd they do in a GP in Europe recently, essentially as a bit of fun?

Titan1 wrote:
😂🤦‍♂️ Well they showed up at some GP’s in America, for a bit of fun, and did pretty darn good…a GP is a GP, or do...
😂🤦‍♂️

Well they showed up at some GP’s in America, for a bit of fun, and did pretty darn good…a GP is a GP, or do, for example, Cairoli’s wins in Italy mean less some how, because they are in his home country?
No argument from me, some of them kicked ass!

But you have gone down a rabbit hole with Cairoli's win in Italy meaning less. AMA based riders are comfortable on American tracks. GP riders are comfortable on the European circuits. That is all.

Shame we don't see more come over for a one-off bit of fun but I understand they are busy. So we're left with the MXdN results to see them in a different situation not at home!


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profeshenal125 6/9/2022 10:51pm
6/9/2022 10:51pm
It could be the dirt a lot of Midwest, east coast riders don’t do well on the Cal. Tracks Larocco was usually in survival mode get some good points and wait to get east to race hard.
Motofinne
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Motofinne 6/9/2022 10:58pm
6/9/2022 10:58pm
Cairoli is turning 37 this year ffs. Imagine taking a retired 37 year old Eli Tomac on a European holiday on a foreign bike to the GPs. I'm sure he would do pretty much the same as Cairoli is doing now.
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Sully
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Sully 6/9/2022 10:59pm
6/9/2022 10:59pm
SteveUrchin wrote:
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would...
Challenging part with this is the bike rules… you bring any GP rider over and make them run OEM frame and set ups here they would struggle. It’s a comparison that is hard to make in my opinion I believe our series racers are better and our field is deeper.
aees wrote:
Herlings disagree 😄 He did ok when he was over 😉
Herlings also came over at the tail end of the GP season. Sure he was on an unfamiliar bike, but he already had a ton of gate drops on the season by the time he got to Ironman. Tony essentially crawled off the couch and said "let's go racing" with very little prep time, riding an unfamiliar bike, and no gate drops since the end of last season.
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VanDan 6/9/2022 11:04pm
6/9/2022 11:04pm
Motofinne wrote:
Cairoli is turning 37 this year ffs. Imagine taking a retired 37 year old Eli Tomac on a European holiday on a foreign bike to the...
Cairoli is turning 37 this year ffs. Imagine taking a retired 37 year old Eli Tomac on a European holiday on a foreign bike to the GPs. I'm sure he would do pretty much the same as Cairoli is doing now.
Homeboy can't even sack up to race for his country at his peak most of the time.

Meanwhile Cairoli wants to represent Italy aged 37.
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CPR
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CPR 6/9/2022 11:27pm
6/9/2022 11:27pm Edited Date/Time 6/9/2022 11:29pm
plowboy wrote:
Ok, we've seen AC in the first two rounds. Granted he's retired, not been training/practicing but he didn't forget how to ride in one year. His...
Ok, we've seen AC in the first two rounds. Granted he's retired, not been training/practicing but he didn't forget how to ride in one year. His results are totally respectable. Last year he still ran up near the front in the GP's.

My point is...we've been told for years now that the outdoor GP specialists are just better than our series. I kinda bought into it.

When I see AC (a podium GP guy) finish where he has (hey, no disrespect...I love the guy)...I am having second thoughts about which side of the pond is really faster.

Will the question finally be answered at MXoN this year?
If you seriously wanna use Cairoli’s current Nationals results as a comparison to the GP’s, (face palm), let’s do that:




Looks like he’s doing about the same to me. However, if you take into consideration that the US results are as a retired rider on holidays without prep etc. what’s that tell you? Hint; not what you’re saying.
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bichwolf
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bichwolf 6/10/2022 3:18am
6/10/2022 3:18am
Motofinne wrote:
Cairoli is turning 37 this year ffs. Imagine taking a retired 37 year old Eli Tomac on a European holiday on a foreign bike to the...
Cairoli is turning 37 this year ffs. Imagine taking a retired 37 year old Eli Tomac on a European holiday on a foreign bike to the GPs. I'm sure he would do pretty much the same as Cairoli is doing now.
Period
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plowboy 6/10/2022 3:33am
6/10/2022 3:33am
Ok, I'll admit that I may have been overly excited about how our boys have done against Tony. I still consider AC one of the all time greats so forgive me. That enthusiasm carried me to thoughts of how our boys would/could do at the MXoN.

I hate that my post gave rise to that old us vs them argument. I do believe in friendly competition and the Nat boys have been behind the 8 ball for a while now. We currently have some fast healthy boys that I want to see rep the USA. That's it...that's all.

About to pull out for THUNDER VALLEY...ain't it coolWoohoo
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Chris_Buehler
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Chris_Buehler 6/10/2022 3:35am
6/10/2022 3:35am
CPR wrote:
If you seriously wanna use Cairoli’s current Nationals results as a comparison to the GP’s, (face palm), let’s do that: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/06/09/554341/s1200_218F6E37_A3BC_41A8_B2ED_B4530BCF17EE.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/06/09/554342/s1200_1EE3503F_1636_46E3_87C3_D35C31A70F9A.jpg[/img] Looks like he’s doing...
If you seriously wanna use Cairoli’s current Nationals results as a comparison to the GP’s, (face palm), let’s do that:




Looks like he’s doing about the same to me. However, if you take into consideration that the US results are as a retired rider on holidays without prep etc. what’s that tell you? Hint; not what you’re saying.
That's what I was thinking. If anything how well he's doing off the couch just shows the superiority of the GP guys
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motomike137 6/10/2022 4:47am
6/10/2022 4:47am
Motofinne wrote:
Cairoli is turning 37 this year ffs. Imagine taking a retired 37 year old Eli Tomac on a European holiday on a foreign bike to the...
Cairoli is turning 37 this year ffs. Imagine taking a retired 37 year old Eli Tomac on a European holiday on a foreign bike to the GPs. I'm sure he would do pretty much the same as Cairoli is doing now.
If Eli were to race and train his ass off right up to his 36th birthday I think he would do just fine Wink
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motomike137 6/10/2022 4:49am
6/10/2022 4:49am
plowboy wrote:
Ok, I'll admit that I may have been overly excited about how our boys have done against Tony. I still consider AC one of the all...
Ok, I'll admit that I may have been overly excited about how our boys have done against Tony. I still consider AC one of the all time greats so forgive me. That enthusiasm carried me to thoughts of how our boys would/could do at the MXoN.

I hate that my post gave rise to that old us vs them argument. I do believe in friendly competition and the Nat boys have been behind the 8 ball for a while now. We currently have some fast healthy boys that I want to see rep the USA. That's it...that's all.

About to pull out for THUNDER VALLEY...ain't it coolWoohoo
It's all just good harmless bench racing. I expect the topic to heat up the next few months since we are blessed with a second chance having the MXON at Red Bud again.
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Joey_Bridges 6/10/2022 5:11am
6/10/2022 5:11am Edited Date/Time 6/10/2022 5:13am
davis224 wrote:
One thing I don't see talked about enough, line formations. It's what hurts us a little at the MXoN, like how everyone thought the track prep...
One thing I don't see talked about enough, line formations. It's what hurts us a little at the MXoN, like how everyone thought the track prep was weird at Red Bud 2018. The MXoN is vast majority MXGP riders carving the lines that are more sweeping, vs more point and shoot for the nationals. Now it's just Cairoli riding the lines made from a field of AMA riders. It's not everything, but it for sure plays a role
I remember Ben Spies commenting on the difference between a works MotoGP bike and a production based superbike was just as you stated.

Superbikes, point and shoot.
MotoGP bike, fast carving lines, with little speed bleed off on corner entry.

Different bikes.
Even more noticable on dirt.
That's why this obsession with comparing the two series is pointless.

The riders are products of their environment.
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