Homo Rule- 7200 production bikes for 500 pro riders?

Tokyo_Tiddler
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8/21/2021 1:36am
xrmark wrote:
Your threads keep delivering. More than half the bikes you listed would break after one lap on a track. Then you follow it up with a...
Your threads keep delivering. More than half the bikes you listed would break after one lap on a track. Then you follow it up with a picture of an EGL, a cheap Chinese knock off of a Honda. Incredible
Thanks, this place needs some excitement, even during the on season. Remember when Japanese bikes were a laughing stock? Just keep laughing at the Chinese bikes...
Thanks, this place needs some excitement, even during the on season.

Remember when Japanese bikes were a laughing stock? Just keep laughing at the Chinese bikes. Who do you think builds most ofl the Japanese/Austrian/ maybe Italian parts?

What are you worried about if they can't finish, you shouldn't be scared to let them in then? That basic bike was run by MCR in SX last year. Sure it would need massaging, but for $4999 you could afford to.
Chinese are fully capable of producing excellent quality, but don't have anywhere near the pride in their workmanship (in general) as the Japanese. Completely different culture.
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CPR
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8/21/2021 2:04am
Serious question; what is the current homologation rule? Number of units and fee?
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murph783
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8/21/2021 6:01am

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soggy
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8/21/2021 6:36am
Please enlighten me as to your vision of the rule?
explaining it to you is not worth my time and you are to dumb to understand it.
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The Shop

braaaaaaaapp
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8/21/2021 6:42am Edited Date/Time 8/21/2021 6:43am
Home is where you make it
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Johnny Depp
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8/21/2021 7:09am
DonM wrote:
Any new manufacturer can get a one year exemption to the homologation rule….so let me get this straight you now want 15yr olds racing on one...
Any new manufacturer can get a one year exemption to the homologation rule….so let me get this straight you now want 15yr olds racing on one off works bikes in the pros….or did I combine two dumb threads into one…
Boomslang wrote:
We need to add a Golden thumb for 1st class posts and a turd for absolute garbage posts the regular thumbs up n down stays...then we...
We need to add a Golden thumb for 1st class posts and a turd for absolute garbage posts the regular thumbs up n down stays...then we have four options.
Boom I can't be too crazy, MXGP has 15 year old's and no production rule.
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Johnny Depp
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8/21/2021 7:23am Edited Date/Time 8/21/2021 7:33am
Harv379 wrote:
The better question is... Do you think if they lifted that rule then all of a sudden TM would have the $ and resources to put...
The better question is... Do you think if they lifted that rule then all of a sudden TM would have the $ and resources to put together an sx team? Or Harley building one off bikes to create a team? I could be wrong, but I just can't see it.
Besides factory teams, it gives independent teams more choices.

https://gatedrop.com/tm-return-to-the-gp-paddock-in-2021/#.YSEMHI5KjIU
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Johnny Depp
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8/21/2021 7:32am
CPR wrote:
Serious question; what is the current homologation rule? Number of units and fee?
https://www.mxa-digital.com/motocrossaction/april_2018/MobilePagedArtic…

(4) A minimum of 400 machines must be available through U.S. dealers.

(8) Only a manufacturer can submit a machine for homologation. There is a $3000 fee to get a bike on the approved list.
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8/21/2021 8:07am
colintrax wrote:
Ping has a story about racing a Chinese bike. Let's see how that Chinese garbage does against a factory Kawasaki. Oh but yes we need Fantic...
Ping has a story about racing a Chinese bike. Let's see how that Chinese garbage does against a factory Kawasaki. Oh but yes we need Fantic who does Yamaha with different plastics.
The few brands that don't race but build a competitive bike, could if they wanted to.
-MAVERICK- wrote:
For anyone that wants to read or re-read the Chinese bike story:

Racer X: Chinese Take-Out
I just read this for the first time, i laughed out loud 2 or 3 times. Ping is great.
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80sMXbadboy
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8/21/2021 8:14am Edited Date/Time 8/21/2021 8:19am
The thread title alone is cringey.
The thread title alone is catchy. Fixed.

Just give it up Port-a Johnny Dump ..
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APLMAN99
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8/21/2021 8:42am
Personally, I’d like to see the ‘production rule’ go away, and maybe have a claiming rule reinstated at somewhere around $50K—$75K.

But if there is a production rule, then there obviously has to be some reasonable minimums for a bike to be on the approved list.

I think that there might be some middle ground that could be had. Perhaps AMA PRO should consider keeping the current numbers for the 250 class, but reduce the numbers for the 450 class to somewhere between 50-200. And don’t count the bikes that aren’t actually for sale, used by the factory teams, etc.

Make the manufacturer provide 3-5 units of each bike approved so they can be used for tech inspections and such.

Actually in a perfect world I’d probably support the SX series as more production based, but I’d want the Nationals (especially 450s) to be opened up to true ‘works bikes’.

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mxtech1
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8/21/2021 9:49am
I don't see the point in eliminating the homologation rule. At its core, MX/SX is production-based racing. The manufacturers that want to be in the market are already at the table.

I'm confused by your stance on this. You point out eliminating the homologation rule would bring more manufacturers to Pro racing, but I don't think that would happen. Small manufacturers don't have the resources to compete with the big manufacturers. And without production units to sell, how are they going to generate profit? You get into sunken-cost fallacy pretty quickly. More so, I am highly confident that a small manufacturer "works" bike would not even be competitive with what's already on the track. The bikes today are so damn good that you have to bring a tried and trued machine to the race or else you aren't going to be competitive.

Times have changed. Decades ago, there were so many gains to be made with R&D, that true works bikes could demonstrate exponential gains in performance. And during those eras, you had to build it and race it to learn what worked and what didnt. Those learnings would then be driven back to the production model. Think about how much better late 80s bikes are than bikes from the 60s. Not even in the same ballpark in only 20 years of advancement. Now think back to 2001 and compare those bikes to 2021 models. Are the '21 models better than 2001? Yes, of course, but the gap is not as astonishing as a 1960s model vs 1980s model. It doesn't have anything to do with works bikes or the homologation rule. Engineering is getting better, everything can be simulated now, better materials, better manufacturing processes, data acquisition, etc. now drives development, not some wild 1-off works bike trying to demonstrated some exotic part combination in a race.


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8/21/2021 9:53am
Johnny Depp is this guy that is so starved for "the story" that he's now basically creating the story. Just an observation, not a dig.
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yzf162
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8/21/2021 10:03am
Good topic. For small boutique builders( Tm, Beta) it should be halved to 200 total units that will help them want to take the plunge and find the sponsors to go racing. For first gen builders and returning oems ( Harley, Triumph, aprillia) should have a 2-3years at 200 then up to 400 after that.
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Johnny Depp
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8/21/2021 10:07am Edited Date/Time 8/21/2021 10:25am
MXTECH1
As you said, bike development is moving now at glacial speed. Alta and Cannondale never made it to the track, but they wanted to. It's a big club, and they weren't in it. At it's core it's an exclusionary policy designed to protect the existing manufacturer's.

If the production rule was scaled back, that wouldn't stop anyone from building more to sell to the public if they wish, but this rule is about providing a level playing field for pro racers. If you want to see how it might play out, look no further than MXGP, it hasn't changed much. Honda got 2 MXGP titles developing the new model. Besides, if they are no threat, what is the harm?

The next gen of bikes could likely look at automotive to see what might be coming. Direct injection, E-bikes or hybrid, 8-10 speed transmission and dual clutch systems, automatics, variable valve train etc.

As we see with the Honda WE, if the price goes up they still sell. Most pro's are replacing suspension and wheels and building their engines up anyway, so upgrades would be perfect for them. GNCC, Desert, Scrambles and Vet racers would likely also snap them up. It would likely result in 2 tiers of builds, much like we see today.
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Johnny Depp
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8/21/2021 11:03am
Press516 wrote:
I'll be in the minority, I don't mind... I do think the rule is limiting participation of production based bikes. No, not the Chinese junk, but...
I'll be in the minority, I don't mind... I do think the rule is limiting participation of production based bikes. No, not the Chinese junk, but decent quality manufacturers like Beta, TM, Sherco, Triumph (soon), etc. There's other brands, but I don't see the likes of Reiju or Fantic doing 4t's.

So what's the fix? Serious question, what is the downside of cutting the number in half?
Press516 wrote:
" I don't see the likes of Reiju or Fantic doing 4t's."

They have both a 250 and 450 4t, but are leading EMX250 and EMX125 on the 2t.
https://www.fantic.com/us-en/moto/motocross/34

https://www.fantic.com/us-en/content-News/double-triumph-for-fantic-_fl…


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smee113
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8/21/2021 11:40am
MXTECH1 As you said, bike development is moving now at glacial speed. Alta and Cannondale never made it to the track, but they wanted to. It's...
MXTECH1
As you said, bike development is moving now at glacial speed. Alta and Cannondale never made it to the track, but they wanted to. It's a big club, and they weren't in it. At it's core it's an exclusionary policy designed to protect the existing manufacturer's.

If the production rule was scaled back, that wouldn't stop anyone from building more to sell to the public if they wish, but this rule is about providing a level playing field for pro racers. If you want to see how it might play out, look no further than MXGP, it hasn't changed much. Honda got 2 MXGP titles developing the new model. Besides, if they are no threat, what is the harm?

The next gen of bikes could likely look at automotive to see what might be coming. Direct injection, E-bikes or hybrid, 8-10 speed transmission and dual clutch systems, automatics, variable valve train etc.

As we see with the Honda WE, if the price goes up they still sell. Most pro's are replacing suspension and wheels and building their engines up anyway, so upgrades would be perfect for them. GNCC, Desert, Scrambles and Vet racers would likely also snap them up. It would likely result in 2 tiers of builds, much like we see today.
Check the Vault, Cannondale did race the Nationals, it just wasn't very successful. Also, Alta was exempt because the rules don't allow electric bikes.
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Johnny Depp
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8/21/2021 12:15pm Edited Date/Time 8/21/2021 1:51pm
smee113 wrote:
Check the Vault, Cannondale did race the Nationals, it just wasn't very successful. Also, Alta was exempt because the rules don't allow electric bikes.
Didn't remember Keith Johnson & Canon, must have been when the 1 year exemption was around? Alta asked and waited for years for approval before going under. To this day, still no provision for electric. What are they scared of?
https://motocrossactionmag.com/cannondales-first-ever-national/
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Press516
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8/21/2021 1:29pm
Press516 wrote:
I'll be in the minority, I don't mind... I do think the rule is limiting participation of production based bikes. No, not the Chinese junk, but...
I'll be in the minority, I don't mind... I do think the rule is limiting participation of production based bikes. No, not the Chinese junk, but decent quality manufacturers like Beta, TM, Sherco, Triumph (soon), etc. There's other brands, but I don't see the likes of Reiju or Fantic doing 4t's.

So what's the fix? Serious question, what is the downside of cutting the number in half?
Press516 wrote: " I don't see the likes of Reiju or Fantic doing 4t's." They have both a 250 and 450 4t, but are [b]leading EMX250...
Press516 wrote:
" I don't see the likes of Reiju or Fantic doing 4t's."

They have both a 250 and 450 4t, but are leading EMX250 and EMX125 on the 2t.
https://www.fantic.com/us-en/moto/motocross/34

https://www.fantic.com/us-en/content-News/double-triumph-for-fantic-_fl…


I hadn't seen the 4t's... Only the xx125 and xx250. More importantly, I believe Yamaha has banned Fantic from US import in their contract.
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Johnny Depp
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8/21/2021 1:58pm Edited Date/Time 8/21/2021 1:59pm
Press516 wrote:
I hadn't seen the 4t's... Only the xx125 and xx250. More importantly, I believe Yamaha has banned Fantic from US import in their contract.
You may be right. Their website doesn't show E-bike dealers either, but they are definitely in the U.S..
Former Womens MX Champ Stephie Bau is the CEO.
https://www.motorcyclepowersportsnews.com/fantic-usa-launches-rewards-p…
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TeamGreen
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8/21/2021 2:20pm
xrmark wrote:
Your threads keep delivering. More than half the bikes you listed would break after one lap on a track. Then you follow it up with a...
Your threads keep delivering. More than half the bikes you listed would break after one lap on a track. Then you follow it up with a picture of an EGL, a cheap Chinese knock off of a Honda. Incredible
In all fairness, there’s some death theft from KTM in there as well. Grinning
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mxtech1
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8/21/2021 8:30pm
MXTECH1 As you said, bike development is moving now at glacial speed. Alta and Cannondale never made it to the track, but they wanted to. It's...
MXTECH1
As you said, bike development is moving now at glacial speed. Alta and Cannondale never made it to the track, but they wanted to. It's a big club, and they weren't in it. At it's core it's an exclusionary policy designed to protect the existing manufacturer's.

If the production rule was scaled back, that wouldn't stop anyone from building more to sell to the public if they wish, but this rule is about providing a level playing field for pro racers. If you want to see how it might play out, look no further than MXGP, it hasn't changed much. Honda got 2 MXGP titles developing the new model. Besides, if they are no threat, what is the harm?

The next gen of bikes could likely look at automotive to see what might be coming. Direct injection, E-bikes or hybrid, 8-10 speed transmission and dual clutch systems, automatics, variable valve train etc.

As we see with the Honda WE, if the price goes up they still sell. Most pro's are replacing suspension and wheels and building their engines up anyway, so upgrades would be perfect for them. GNCC, Desert, Scrambles and Vet racers would likely also snap them up. It would likely result in 2 tiers of builds, much like we see today.
I DID NOT say bike development is moving at "glacial speed." What I said should have been interpreted as bike development in today's era looks much different than what happened in the "works" era.

Past examples where true "works" development paved the way:
2 stroke engine performance
Air cooled to liquid cooled
Drum to disc brakes
Points ignition to CDI
Suspension development (Twin to mono-shock, tiny forks to decently "modern" twin chamber)
Drastic changes in frame geometry to enable increased suspension travel, modern ergonomics

I'm sure that I am forgetting some big one as some of this stuff happened before I was born, but you get the idea. All the stuff listed above was designed and then thrown on a "works" bike to prove it out. Radical gains were made. Many ideas failed. Some never made it to production, some did.
That list gets us up into 1985 when AMA banned the works bike.

From '86 on, in the last ~36 years from production based development has delivered:
2 stroke to 4 stroke revolution (obviously this is the BIG one, Yamaha is the exception when the forced the AMA to make an exemption claim to the homologation rule when they were ready to race the YZ400f in '99)
Steel to perimeter AL frames
Carb to Fuel Injection
Massive improvements in suspension (upside down forks, triple adjustment shocks, air forks, etc.)
Start mode / launch control
Hydraulic clutches
Torque (traction) control mapping
Electric start
Bluetooth connectivity for tuning Apps
Slipper clutches
Much more sophisticated software and improved hardware in the ECU & CDI
Data acquisition

The achievements made in the production based era are more linear than the works era, but not necessarily any less significant. For example, in my opinion, what manufactures have been able to with engine power delivery through FI/sensors/ECU software is as significant as say the 250T to YZ400F transition. Development and advancements just look different now. Today, most advancements are systematically engineered, proven in FEA, tested in prototype form for function and reliability, and then put into racing or production after they have passed all the above criteria. The modern method is so much more sophisticated than the "works bike" method that I can't wrap my head around why you would even want to go back to that.

Alta made more than enough bikes to homologate, but the AMA has a ban on e-bikes because they don't understand e-drive and won't adopt until KTM, Honda, or Yamaha are ready to release their models. So that's a political play, not homologation enforcement.

Cannondale & the MX400...let's be real here, that bike was a shit-box. It had some really cool features and honestly some forward thinking designs for the time, but that bike was FARRR from pro racing worthy. They needed years of testing and refinement before they even had something ready to produce, and that could have been done at the amateur level.

None of the teams/manufactures want to be building one-off bikes anymore. Its extremely expensive. Unproven parts break and/or don't always perform as expected. A major part of being successful in racing is minimizing risk and maximizing reliability. Even in MXGP, where teams are allowed more freedom than AMA MX/SX, the bikes are predominately still production-based.
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CPR
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8/21/2021 10:47pm
CPR wrote:
Serious question; what is the current homologation rule? Number of units and fee?
https://www.mxa-digital.com/motocrossaction/april_2018/MobilePagedArticle.action?articleId=1364922#articleId1364922 (4) A minimum of 400 machines must be available through U.S. dealers. (8) Only a manufacturer can submit a machine for homologation. There is a...
https://www.mxa-digital.com/motocrossaction/april_2018/MobilePagedArtic…

(4) A minimum of 400 machines must be available through U.S. dealers.

(8) Only a manufacturer can submit a machine for homologation. There is a $3000 fee to get a bike on the approved list.
I wonder how exactly they came up with the figure of 400 bikes? And who did, and when?

So the only reason YZ250s aren’t homologated, is Yamaha hasn’t paid the lousy $3k!
I wonder with the investment in the new YZ125, they’ll pay the fee for it?
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Holigan
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8/22/2021 5:43am
colintrax wrote:
Ping has a story about racing a Chinese bike. Let's see how that Chinese garbage does against a factory Kawasaki. Oh but yes we need Fantic...
Ping has a story about racing a Chinese bike. Let's see how that Chinese garbage does against a factory Kawasaki. Oh but yes we need Fantic who does Yamaha with different plastics.
The few brands that don't race but build a competitive bike, could if they wanted to.
-MAVERICK- wrote:
For anyone that wants to read or re-read the Chinese bike story:

Racer X: Chinese Take-Out



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murph783
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8/22/2021 6:56am
CPR wrote:
Serious question; what is the current homologation rule? Number of units and fee?
https://www.mxa-digital.com/motocrossaction/april_2018/MobilePagedArticle.action?articleId=1364922#articleId1364922 (4) A minimum of 400 machines must be available through U.S. dealers. (8) Only a manufacturer can submit a machine for homologation. There is a...
https://www.mxa-digital.com/motocrossaction/april_2018/MobilePagedArtic…

(4) A minimum of 400 machines must be available through U.S. dealers.

(8) Only a manufacturer can submit a machine for homologation. There is a $3000 fee to get a bike on the approved list.
CPR wrote:
I wonder how exactly they came up with the figure of 400 bikes? And who did, and when? So the only reason YZ250s aren’t homologated, is...
I wonder how exactly they came up with the figure of 400 bikes? And who did, and when?

So the only reason YZ250s aren’t homologated, is Yamaha hasn’t paid the lousy $3k!
I wonder with the investment in the new YZ125, they’ll pay the fee for it?
Well according to some dude Tomac is gonna be racing the YZ250 next year so presumably they’ll do the 125 too 😂 honestly though why not? It’s a solid bike people will ride it
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Indy mxer
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8/22/2021 7:50am
I think TM would give it a shot if they were allowed to. Aren't they racing the GP's?
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ATKpilot99
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8/22/2021 7:56am
nytsmaC wrote:
Are you trying to break the downvote counter?
Grab a pitchfork buddy, we're talking TM here! They have a good legacy in MXGP's, but none in the AMA. Ever.
I think there was a guy who tried qualifying for a national on a TM in the 90s . Not sure if he made the gate but he was in the program. I think the explanation was they thought it was supposed to be KTM on the entry but said TM by mistake.
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8/22/2021 8:31am
Is the whole point of that rule to stop the guys with big pockets from building totally works bikes? How do you stop ktm and Honda from just out spending everyone and making the problem worse?
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Press516
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8/22/2021 9:40am
Is the whole point of that rule to stop the guys with big pockets from building totally works bikes? How do you stop ktm and Honda...
Is the whole point of that rule to stop the guys with big pockets from building totally works bikes? How do you stop ktm and Honda from just out spending everyone and making the problem worse?
Some of the suggestions have been to reduce the minimum number from 400 to say 200 or even 100 to qualify.

Second, it's still production based. Maybe sharpen those rules a bit, production frame, swingarm, etc already in the rules, but add more if needed to keep the bank account from dominating the bikes. Then it becomes setup and testing and rider... Well, it's already rider...

TM and Beta seem most likely to come in if it was made a little easier. Triumph when it has a bike. Sherco could, but they can now in EMX125, etc and don't. Fantic shows the fire, but Yamaha has them on a short leash.
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Johnny Depp
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8/22/2021 9:44am
Curious question? When was the last time a bike was torn down over a production rule protest? Ever?
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