Why do riders Sandbag C class?

inthebadboycorner 6/1/2021 3:39pm
6/1/2021 3:39pm
Jon Bingham wrote:
Probably the same type of people that lie on their golf scorecards. They drop down in different series when they're moved up in another.
No, I do that to antagonise my brother!
yz133rider
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yz133rider 6/1/2021 4:12pm
6/1/2021 4:12pm
doofus wrote:
We somewhat did this when I raced midgets, you had to qualify and your lap time determined your starting position but was inverted to help make...
We somewhat did this when I raced midgets, you had to qualify and your lap time determined your starting position but was inverted to help make a better race... AKA fastest qualifier would start last.

Problem is... people sandbagged qualifying too.
At least seems like a way to weed thru it quickly. If your race lap times are significantly faster than your qualifying times instant no points in the race and bumped up a class?
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Tarz483
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Tarz483 6/1/2021 4:15pm
6/1/2021 4:15pm
wideroad wrote:
Every race weekend I'm watching my 16yr old nephew in his first year of racing get obliterated by guys running times that are competitive B-class lap...
Every race weekend I'm watching my 16yr old nephew in his first year of racing get obliterated by guys running times that are competitive B-class lap times, if not A-class viable times and it takes a toll on a new racer.

It seems like it would be easy enough to dump and sort the the lap time data from transponders into excel and then assign groups based off the A-class statistics. The caveat I see with this approach is, assuming they're racing the appropriate class, how is someone supposed to stay in the same class the whole race series as riders either progress or not relative to their class?

A. They would have qualifiers prior to starting the season?

or

B. let them FINISH in the series they start and boot them in any following series, B takes longer but it eventually starts helping
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LKHill
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LKHill 6/1/2021 5:35pm
6/1/2021 5:35pm
TheRookie wrote:
Because that million dollar contract is waiting at LL for the C Class championship...
Wouldn't be the first time...
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vdrsnk04
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vdrsnk04 6/1/2021 8:14pm
6/1/2021 8:14pm
vdrsnk04 wrote:
If the we say the C class is for beginners and I agree it is. Then I don’t think there should be a c class “championship”...
If the we say the C class is for beginners and I agree it is. Then I don’t think there should be a c class “championship” at Loretta’s. They should have regionals and that’s it. I think some of the B class riders do C class to be able to say they made it to Loretta’s, or won it.

But if it’s a beginners class it doesn’t make sense to me to have it at the Loretta’s level. Stick to district and regional racing until you are winning, move to B class there and try to qualify to Loretta’s.

JMO
mattyhamz2 wrote:
This is the problem with the C class and how everyone sees it. On the West Cost it isn’t the beginner class. We have dedicated beginner...
This is the problem with the C class and how everyone sees it. On the West Cost it isn’t the beginner class. We have dedicated beginner classes. Other than the few that sandbag the actual beginner classes, it’s a pretty big jump from beginner to C here. Take things back East more and that’s completely different where the C class is basically the beginner class. I think that’s a big problem that we have with that specific class. Too much variance throughout the country.

And the C class isn’t the only heavily sandbagged class. Go to Mammoth and you’ll see guys drop down a class everywhere. Vets, kids, doesn’t matter.
Tarz483 wrote:
That is a good point when I raced in the 1990's in the Midwest C class was the beginner class, there wasn't a lower class, I...
That is a good point when I raced in the 1990's in the Midwest C class was the beginner class, there wasn't a lower class, I went from 80cc to 125 C
and friends that never raced but were already to old for 80's Started in 125 C

On a side note I had 2 friends that never rode dirt bikes that got into it, and started racing with 125C being there starting point and it was painful to watch, Both would either endo or air wheelie off of every jump and I always though that even the 125 bike and Class was still too much for a true beginner,
and now its mostly 250f or 450f For adult beginners, is that any better?

I honestly think there should Be a XR100 class for beginners or some kind of air-cooled bike class.
I think both of my friends that Raced briefly and got hurt and quit would have liked it and raced longer if there had been a lower starting point and they could have moved up when actually ready.
Wouldn’t that just be play riding and learning as a beginner to learn basics. Why does a person need to race to do that, I think that means they aren’t ready to race.

Again, JMO
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idiotic isaac 6/1/2021 9:05pm
6/1/2021 9:05pm
The issue is the speed difference from national level C riders and local C riders. If C riders ever do a race in B class and its recorded they can't do C class again, locally or nationally. National level C riders have to do local races in C class where they could probably win B or even A. Once they go to a national they'll most likely be well within the competition. The fix would be separating local and nation racing. Theres also X amount of fast people at local races. Wether you move more of X from C to B or however you want it someones always not gonna be happy because someone in there class is too fast.
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TheLsho 6/1/2021 9:18pm
6/1/2021 9:18pm
Mr. Afterbar wrote:
Quit running a C class at Loretta's. Make 250 B have an age limit of 18 for Loretta's. Don't keep points for C class locally.
Something like this. No Lorettas (or equivalent) C class and no contingency should be awarded to classes that promote sandbagging (age classes with distinction as well). Ride it if you want, but no extra rewards.
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Tarz483
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Tarz483 6/1/2021 9:31pm
6/1/2021 9:31pm Edited Date/Time 6/1/2021 9:36pm
mattyhamz2 wrote:
This is the problem with the C class and how everyone sees it. On the West Cost it isn’t the beginner class. We have dedicated beginner...
This is the problem with the C class and how everyone sees it. On the West Cost it isn’t the beginner class. We have dedicated beginner classes. Other than the few that sandbag the actual beginner classes, it’s a pretty big jump from beginner to C here. Take things back East more and that’s completely different where the C class is basically the beginner class. I think that’s a big problem that we have with that specific class. Too much variance throughout the country.

And the C class isn’t the only heavily sandbagged class. Go to Mammoth and you’ll see guys drop down a class everywhere. Vets, kids, doesn’t matter.
Tarz483 wrote:
That is a good point when I raced in the 1990's in the Midwest C class was the beginner class, there wasn't a lower class, I...
That is a good point when I raced in the 1990's in the Midwest C class was the beginner class, there wasn't a lower class, I went from 80cc to 125 C
and friends that never raced but were already to old for 80's Started in 125 C

On a side note I had 2 friends that never rode dirt bikes that got into it, and started racing with 125C being there starting point and it was painful to watch, Both would either endo or air wheelie off of every jump and I always though that even the 125 bike and Class was still too much for a true beginner,
and now its mostly 250f or 450f For adult beginners, is that any better?

I honestly think there should Be a XR100 class for beginners or some kind of air-cooled bike class.
I think both of my friends that Raced briefly and got hurt and quit would have liked it and raced longer if there had been a lower starting point and they could have moved up when actually ready.
vdrsnk04 wrote:
Wouldn’t that just be play riding and learning as a beginner to learn basics. Why does a person need to race to do that, I think...
Wouldn’t that just be play riding and learning as a beginner to learn basics. Why does a person need to race to do that, I think that means they aren’t ready to race.

Again, JMO
Fair question. The answer for the guys I personally knew I would say they weren't ready to be racing but they lived in a metro area and didn't have much option for play riding or practice, I would guess that's a lot of people these days. I know both of these guys had some practice track riding prior to racing but one only had the bike for a month before his first race.
In my opinion the best option would be some air cooled bike options, XR100 Type and race classes for them.
Since a lot of people don't get the practice around the neighborhood or the track you and your buddy's made in a field these days like we did in the past, especially if you live in a populated area and don't have property.
I rode for 2 years on a Kawasaki KD80 trail bike prior to getting my first race bike a CR80. And IMO the CR80 was very pipey Had it been my first I can see how that would be difficult. I had the clutch and shifting down from time on the mellow bike I also was used to jumping from years riding BMX and my friends didn't.
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motomike137
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motomike137 6/2/2021 4:41am
6/2/2021 4:41am
The C class should be banned from jumping doubles and triples. it would clean things up really quick. My god when I was young nobody I knew would be caught dead riding the friggin C class. The promoters and the AMA have allowed this to become the monster that it is.
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RCB33
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RCB33 6/2/2021 5:43am
6/2/2021 5:43am
LOOnatic wrote:
Off road moto racing has the same problem so it's not strictly due to the allure of Loretta's.
The woods series I race has percentile rank on overall results. As such, sandbagging doesn't seem to last very long. When you stand out that heavily in results, people have a tendency to bump themselves rather quickly. For example: Sportsman rider beating all but two people in the next class overall the past 3 races generally gets picked up on either by the rider or others. Not a perfect system but it definitely helps, mx having percentile of the fastest dude at the track would surely help highlight sandbagging at least a little bit. When I race MX I feel like the problem is more noticeable because there's no way to show quantitatively that the person is possibly sandbagging.

RCB33
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Press516 6/2/2021 7:12am
6/2/2021 7:12am Edited Date/Time 6/2/2021 7:13am
There is always that risk of someone being faster than they think they are... It happens, bump them.

In 1976 as a minibike MX rider, intermediate class at the time, I entered my first ever desert race, it was called Searchlight to Vegas. It actually started by Cal-Nev-Ari. It was a flag start in waves... Big bikes by class then little bikes by class. So 80cc Novice was the last flag drop of the entire event. Anywhere from 20 to 40 bikes in every class.

By the time we got to the fuel refilling pit in Searchlight I had passed all but 2 of the intermediates and was 10 minutes ahead of the novices. By the end of the race, I finished 2nd overall minibike... Only didn't pass 1 expert.

So we immediately bumped up to expert... The promoters were laughing with my parents because they knew it wasn't on purpose. We literally were a first timer. That risk exists, but that's not at all what we are talking about here.

Intentional sandbagging... There has to be a better way.
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FWYT 6/2/2021 7:17am
6/2/2021 7:17am
RCB33 wrote:
The woods series I race has percentile rank on overall results. As such, sandbagging doesn't seem to last very long. When you stand out that heavily...
The woods series I race has percentile rank on overall results. As such, sandbagging doesn't seem to last very long. When you stand out that heavily in results, people have a tendency to bump themselves rather quickly. For example: Sportsman rider beating all but two people in the next class overall the past 3 races generally gets picked up on either by the rider or others. Not a perfect system but it definitely helps, mx having percentile of the fastest dude at the track would surely help highlight sandbagging at least a little bit. When I race MX I feel like the problem is more noticeable because there's no way to show quantitatively that the person is possibly sandbagging.

RCB33
I had suggested something similar. Glad to see it that it is in place and does have an effect.
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FWYT 6/2/2021 7:19am
6/2/2021 7:19am
idiotic isaac wrote:
The issue is the speed difference from national level C riders and local C riders. If C riders ever do a race in B class and...
The issue is the speed difference from national level C riders and local C riders. If C riders ever do a race in B class and its recorded they can't do C class again, locally or nationally. National level C riders have to do local races in C class where they could probably win B or even A. Once they go to a national they'll most likely be well within the competition. The fix would be separating local and nation racing. Theres also X amount of fast people at local races. Wether you move more of X from C to B or however you want it someones always not gonna be happy because someone in there class is too fast.
Also a very good point. I'm a mid pack local guy and I'm fine with that. Last
time I went to Mammoth I didn't even make the Sunday race in my usual
class but the fuck if I was going to drop down. Just stiff competition
and I got worked. That's racing.
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cmotodad
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cmotodad 6/2/2021 7:32am
6/2/2021 7:32am
I haven't read the entire thread so I'm not sure if this has been written, When a rider can go to a race and get contigency money for anything but the A class, racers will be staying down as long as they can. Along with the notoriety of titles too. Back when, you went to the A class as fast as you possibly could, if talented enough, to get a loical shop discount on bike and parts. If fast enough, you were able to get them for free.
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LungButter
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LungButter 6/2/2021 7:54am
6/2/2021 7:54am
Loretta Lynn's "Encouraging Rampant Sandbagging Since '82"

Laughing Tongue
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Tarz483
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Tarz483 6/2/2021 8:18am
6/2/2021 8:18am Edited Date/Time 6/2/2021 8:19am
motomike137 wrote:
The C class should be banned from jumping doubles and triples. it would clean things up really quick. My god when I was young nobody I...
The C class should be banned from jumping doubles and triples. it would clean things up really quick. My god when I was young nobody I knew would be caught dead riding the friggin C class. The promoters and the AMA have allowed this to become the monster that it is.
maybe make an line around the biggest jumps that the C Class has to take, I think that would be a good option then the fast guys would want to go to B, And it would be safer for actual beginners WIN WIN
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Tarz483
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Tarz483 6/2/2021 8:26am
6/2/2021 8:26am
LOOnatic wrote:
Off road moto racing has the same problem so it's not strictly due to the allure of Loretta's.
RCB33 wrote:
The woods series I race has percentile rank on overall results. As such, sandbagging doesn't seem to last very long. When you stand out that heavily...
The woods series I race has percentile rank on overall results. As such, sandbagging doesn't seem to last very long. When you stand out that heavily in results, people have a tendency to bump themselves rather quickly. For example: Sportsman rider beating all but two people in the next class overall the past 3 races generally gets picked up on either by the rider or others. Not a perfect system but it definitely helps, mx having percentile of the fastest dude at the track would surely help highlight sandbagging at least a little bit. When I race MX I feel like the problem is more noticeable because there's no way to show quantitatively that the person is possibly sandbagging.

RCB33
This is EXCELLENT I would love to see this everywhere, It would be interesting to see how the 85 and super mini's do against the C class also Smile
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Kenny Lingus
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Kenny Lingus 6/2/2021 8:47am
6/2/2021 8:47am
Sandbagging is certainly a problem. But, just because a rider is best in class doesn't automatically make him/her a sandbagger.

When I was racing a lot in NY, I could race probably 5-6 different districts. Some were AMA others were "outlaw" series. One district I could've raced expert and won others top 5 in Novice was a good finish.

If you think someone is sandbagging, ask them why before getting mad or protesting. You just might not be as fast as you thought.

Some just get mad because they got beat. I've been protested for having re-vavled suspension and new tires! 😆
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Soldozer
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Soldozer 6/2/2021 9:01am
6/2/2021 9:01am
They sandbag for the same reason guys in the Sportsman class are crying about having to line up with Emig.

That $6.00 plastic trophy......
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profeshenal125 6/2/2021 9:17am
6/2/2021 9:17am
125 c races at contingency races with 4-5 states of riders. There all competive , when they race locally there faster. With 10 rounds at 1 track, paying up to 500 per race. And there going to LL. 125 c riders used to spend 1 year, trying to win. Then they moved up.
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piscokid 6/2/2021 9:21am
6/2/2021 9:21am
We raced a ton of AQ for LL and I was amazed at how many kids we raced against in 125c that LIVED at MTF or ClubMX and were racing in that class. We raced 250c JR Limited also and the same training camp kids win that class on a 125. Come on man, move the hell up....Crazy.
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TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 6/2/2021 9:51am
6/2/2021 9:51am
piscokid wrote:
We raced a ton of AQ for LL and I was amazed at how many kids we raced against in 125c that LIVED at MTF or...
We raced a ton of AQ for LL and I was amazed at how many kids we raced against in 125c that LIVED at MTF or ClubMX and were racing in that class. We raced 250c JR Limited also and the same training camp kids win that class on a 125. Come on man, move the hell up....Crazy.
When someone rails on the C Class "like a boss"?
They need to be moved up.
The 'pointing out system' ain't cutting it in that class/those class's.

I'm a true fan of LL's. Hell, I raced the 1st one back when Dave Sr. was runnin the Cat around the track in the morning. But, things have changed a bit, since then, and have gotten a bit "Too Serious, Too Early".

It's time to police the living shit out of these classes.

How? Just do it. "Known Hot Shoes" and the like need to be scrutinized and 'moved up accordingly'.

Signed,

A FAN of MX racing since 1968.
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Hammer 663s
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Hammer 663s 6/2/2021 10:26am
6/2/2021 10:26am
TeamGreen wrote:
When someone rails on the C Class "like a boss"? They need to be moved up. The 'pointing out system' ain't cutting it in that class/those...
When someone rails on the C Class "like a boss"?
They need to be moved up.
The 'pointing out system' ain't cutting it in that class/those class's.

I'm a true fan of LL's. Hell, I raced the 1st one back when Dave Sr. was runnin the Cat around the track in the morning. But, things have changed a bit, since then, and have gotten a bit "Too Serious, Too Early".

It's time to police the living shit out of these classes.

How? Just do it. "Known Hot Shoes" and the like need to be scrutinized and 'moved up accordingly'.

Signed,

A FAN of MX racing since 1968.
Yup, EVERY event and organizer should have a Race Director who monitors riders and results. The RD should have unilateral authority to bump anyone that is dominating a class. Have to be a thick-skinned person tho cause of all the bitching and pressure they would be under. Most of us that race can watch a C class (or 50/65/85cc Beg) and see who doesn't belong there pretty quickly.

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TooTallJason
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TooTallJason 6/2/2021 10:32am
6/2/2021 10:32am
Should moving up be based on win percentage then instead of points? I feel like that would help. For example, if you're just sandbagging local races and winning all the time, then your win percentage is high and you get moved up. If you're racing national level races and local races, let's assume that brings your win percentage (or avg. position finish now that I'm thinking about it) down. Obviously if you're not winning, you're not moving up, but in this scenario, a sandbagger would have to purposefully lose races to stay in their class, which defeats the purpose of sandbagging to begin with.


Let's say that any win percentage above 75% in a calendar year means you move up automatically. You race once and you win once, you move up. In this scenario, only overall wins count.

I can definitely find problems with this, say for example if a rider wins a bunch of local races but barely qualifies for LL and then goes and gets smoked at LL, what then?

byke
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byke 6/2/2021 11:30am
6/2/2021 11:30am
C riders make up 90% of all riders. If you make it harder for C riders, you'll have fewer C riders and C riders = $$$, plain and simple. Promoters see moto as a cow with tits and they hungry for that creamy goodness. Changing something could mean less creamy goodness and that's not happening.
Tarz483
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Tarz483 6/2/2021 11:59am
6/2/2021 11:59am
byke wrote:
C riders make up 90% of all riders. If you make it harder for C riders, you'll have fewer C riders and C riders = $$$...
C riders make up 90% of all riders. If you make it harder for C riders, you'll have fewer C riders and C riders = $$$, plain and simple. Promoters see moto as a cow with tits and they hungry for that creamy goodness. Changing something could mean less creamy goodness and that's not happening.
Changing something could also mean a lot more creamy goodness and I can think of ways that I believe could and would increase participation at the local level, and I'm sure others here could as well especially if we all put our heads together.
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Tarz483
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Tarz483 6/2/2021 12:04pm
6/2/2021 12:04pm
TooTallJason wrote:
Should moving up be based on win percentage then instead of points? I feel like that would help. For example, if you're just sandbagging local races...
Should moving up be based on win percentage then instead of points? I feel like that would help. For example, if you're just sandbagging local races and winning all the time, then your win percentage is high and you get moved up. If you're racing national level races and local races, let's assume that brings your win percentage (or avg. position finish now that I'm thinking about it) down. Obviously if you're not winning, you're not moving up, but in this scenario, a sandbagger would have to purposefully lose races to stay in their class, which defeats the purpose of sandbagging to begin with.


Let's say that any win percentage above 75% in a calendar year means you move up automatically. You race once and you win once, you move up. In this scenario, only overall wins count.

I can definitely find problems with this, say for example if a rider wins a bunch of local races but barely qualifies for LL and then goes and gets smoked at LL, what then?

I've seen multiple times where faster guys that I believe should have been B were planning to go to Loretta's in the C class so they would race the local races Ride 3 laps way out front and pull off on the 3rd lap. It was extremely obvious and everyone there new what he was doing and why. After Loretta's that particular kid came back and raced B class locally and one every B race for the rest of the Summer And went A class the following year .
the year I'm talking about was his 2nd year on bigger bikes. He really was good enough to skip C all together What is the solution there, I honestly don't know
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motomike137
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motomike137 6/2/2021 12:12pm
6/2/2021 12:12pm
byke wrote:
C riders make up 90% of all riders. If you make it harder for C riders, you'll have fewer C riders and C riders = $$$...
C riders make up 90% of all riders. If you make it harder for C riders, you'll have fewer C riders and C riders = $$$, plain and simple. Promoters see moto as a cow with tits and they hungry for that creamy goodness. Changing something could mean less creamy goodness and that's not happening.
Obviously that's the conundrum that the promoters and the AMA have created for themselves. It should have been addressed a long long time ago. C should truly be beginner. Come out run a few races and if you are good enough to get around the track without being a hazard and you can do the obstacles you are no longer a C rider. B should be a mix of the C guys who can ride decent and the 50 % percent of the current B riders. A should be the current miniscule number of entrants and the top 50% of the B class. There should be fewer classes overall and longer motos... I could go on for days lol.
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Tarz483
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Tarz483 6/2/2021 12:42pm
6/2/2021 12:42pm
byke wrote:
C riders make up 90% of all riders. If you make it harder for C riders, you'll have fewer C riders and C riders = $$$...
C riders make up 90% of all riders. If you make it harder for C riders, you'll have fewer C riders and C riders = $$$, plain and simple. Promoters see moto as a cow with tits and they hungry for that creamy goodness. Changing something could mean less creamy goodness and that's not happening.
motomike137 wrote:
Obviously that's the conundrum that the promoters and the AMA have created for themselves. It should have been addressed a long long time ago. C should...
Obviously that's the conundrum that the promoters and the AMA have created for themselves. It should have been addressed a long long time ago. C should truly be beginner. Come out run a few races and if you are good enough to get around the track without being a hazard and you can do the obstacles you are no longer a C rider. B should be a mix of the C guys who can ride decent and the 50 % percent of the current B riders. A should be the current miniscule number of entrants and the top 50% of the B class. There should be fewer classes overall and longer motos... I could go on for days lol.
please do go on. I agree with everything you've said.
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lostboy819 6/2/2021 2:11pm
6/2/2021 2:11pm
All I see in this thread is a bunch of C riders who can't win the C class, whining because of faster C riders who they claim are sandbagging. Man up and ride the B class then so you don't have to race the sandbaggers, but wait you wont win that class either. Blush
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