Why do riders Sandbag C class?

Press516
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Press516 6/1/2021 8:41am
6/1/2021 8:41am
There is no honor among thieves.... That's C class MX today.


In my race days, it was Novice, Intermediate and Expert. And if you had 2 wins in any class you were automatically bumped up. We always wanted to bump up as quickly as possible. You always get faster chasing/racing guys that are faster than you. Why stunt your growth staying back with slower guys? There were always guys that raced with you at other tracks and would call you out if you tried to sandbag...
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bama205
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bama205 6/1/2021 8:54am
6/1/2021 8:54am
The only issue with the following plan is doing points/ series.
This is for a local race not LL.

But I always thought it would be neat to take the riders and have a series of heat races — using those finishes to create Moto 2 / Main Event.

So if there’s 60 riders, you have 2, 30 man gate heats.

the top 10 in each go to A, following 10 each go to B following go to C.


Can have a separate straight beginner class.
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DerickYZ
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DerickYZ 6/1/2021 9:05am
6/1/2021 9:05am
In WNY the C Class is a sandbagging glory class. There’s people in the C class that have been riding C class for 4-6 years at least. They race most of the series to nearly point out then skip races to stay below the threshold.
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Leeham
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Leeham 6/1/2021 9:52am
6/1/2021 9:52am
bama205 wrote:
The only issue with the following plan is doing points/ series. This is for a local race not LL. But I always thought it would be...
The only issue with the following plan is doing points/ series.
This is for a local race not LL.

But I always thought it would be neat to take the riders and have a series of heat races — using those finishes to create Moto 2 / Main Event.

So if there’s 60 riders, you have 2, 30 man gate heats.

the top 10 in each go to A, following 10 each go to B following go to C.


Can have a separate straight beginner class.
Id think that could work. Have a one moto format but qualify for certain classes. Take lap times from those qualifying laps to cross reference what they do in their moto. It would take a lot more precise effort to sandbag. I dont really like racing anymore because of:
1. Those days are super long for how much riding gets done
2. I just get irritated with other wierdos sandbagging
3. Sketch fest

Also could be a good idea is have kinda lookup/record of some sort to see what people do and finish. This is obviously in a perfect world because that would require an insane amount of effort

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Airick
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Airick 6/1/2021 10:10am
6/1/2021 10:10am
McGinnis_339 wrote:
I understand there is an issue... but in the big picture, what is the actual problem? Do the B class riders gain anything from staying down...
I understand there is an issue... but in the big picture, what is the actual problem? Do the B class riders gain anything from staying down and potentially winning a championship in the C class at Lorettas or any other amateur national? And do the kids who are actually fit for C class miss out on a career in supercross by not winning in that class? McGrath and Axell Hodges are probably the only 2 C class champions from Lorettas who have made a career from racing dirtbikes.
To me the issue is one of the reasons for classes, safety. Dudes going A class speed in C class is more dangerous than it needs to be. A class dude scrubs/clears the the table, while C class dude lands on top and rolls off.
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ama530
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ama530 6/1/2021 10:12am
6/1/2021 10:12am Edited Date/Time 6/1/2021 10:14am
When you have paid moto training centers catering to C-class riders and the parents home-schooling them so they can ride 24/7, then you know the sport needs an enema. I always ask those parents what their back-up plan is. They look at me like I am an alien. I had one dad brag to me that he had $10K in mods in his kids bike to race the 250C class. I laughed at him and said he should be riding a stock bike instead of a bike that he couldn't ride to its potential and made him slower. After that year, I never saw him again.

I always thought it as a badge of honor moving to the next class. Now it is like the plague.
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Boomslang 6/1/2021 10:13am
6/1/2021 10:13am
yz133rider wrote:
The fix is to use transponders and group riders based on lap times instead of allowing them to self identify as a c rider even though...
The fix is to use transponders and group riders based on lap times instead of allowing them to self identify as a c rider even though they hit every jump and scrub past actual c riders.

I think this is a huge issue that needs to be addressed too. Because actual beginners enter c class and get smoked. They get demoralized and then don’t come back or never enter to begin with. C should be legit beginners.
Take away the C class...the guys can learn their craft locally and then try qualify for B. Problem solved.
wrc777
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wrc777 6/1/2021 10:17am
6/1/2021 10:17am
This problem isn’t limited to bike racing.
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rbspecial138
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rbspecial138 6/1/2021 10:19am
6/1/2021 10:19am
I agree with all the stuff said above, however there are some rules that are in place that prevent people from moving up. For instance, I am only able to ride 'C' off-road in the district 36 off road series because I have not accumulated enough 'advancement points' to be moved into B. Normally this would not be a problem to accumulate enough points, but I primarily race moto, and race a few oddball off-road events just for fun. (therefore not accumulating enough advancement points per year) This puts the responsibility again on the promoter to enforce reasonable rules to help people move people up.
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xrmark
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xrmark 6/1/2021 10:49am
6/1/2021 10:49am
Should see the novice classes at a swap race. 250 and 450 novice will have 20+ guys in it. While pro class and intermediate have 3 maybe 4 guys. 250 novice is loaded with kids who post to the gram claiming a win, but leave out its beginner 🤨. Can’t help but laugh at them
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ElliotB16
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ElliotB16 6/1/2021 11:14am
6/1/2021 11:14am
Our local series eliminated A B and C classes and are running 250 open and 450 open. Was skeptical at first but the racing has turned out to be a lot better with larger gates. Then you still have your true beginner class.

It’s too much of a money maker for mx sports and the ama to change anything. Some of these crazy moto parents go all in just for their kid to qualify for C class at Loretta’s.
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cable
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cable 6/1/2021 11:23am
6/1/2021 11:23am
they need to use colored backgrounds for different classes. then you feel cool with the Yellow for B class or Red for A class.. once you can identify a bike/rider based on class i think that would help.. cant look cool with the C class background rolling down the highway..
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Tarz483
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Tarz483 6/1/2021 11:36am
6/1/2021 11:36am Edited Date/Time 6/1/2021 11:41am
vdrsnk04 wrote:
If the we say the C class is for beginners and I agree it is. Then I don’t think there should be a c class “championship”...
If the we say the C class is for beginners and I agree it is. Then I don’t think there should be a c class “championship” at Loretta’s. They should have regionals and that’s it. I think some of the B class riders do C class to be able to say they made it to Loretta’s, or won it.

But if it’s a beginners class it doesn’t make sense to me to have it at the Loretta’s level. Stick to district and regional racing until you are winning, move to B class there and try to qualify to Loretta’s.

JMO
mattyhamz2 wrote:
This is the problem with the C class and how everyone sees it. On the West Cost it isn’t the beginner class. We have dedicated beginner...
This is the problem with the C class and how everyone sees it. On the West Cost it isn’t the beginner class. We have dedicated beginner classes. Other than the few that sandbag the actual beginner classes, it’s a pretty big jump from beginner to C here. Take things back East more and that’s completely different where the C class is basically the beginner class. I think that’s a big problem that we have with that specific class. Too much variance throughout the country.

And the C class isn’t the only heavily sandbagged class. Go to Mammoth and you’ll see guys drop down a class everywhere. Vets, kids, doesn’t matter.
That is a good point when I raced in the 1990's in the Midwest C class was the beginner class, there wasn't a lower class, I went from 80cc to 125 C
and friends that never raced but were already to old for 80's Started in 125 C

On a side note I had 2 friends that never rode dirt bikes that got into it, and started racing with 125C being there starting point and it was painful to watch, Both would either endo or air wheelie off of every jump and I always though that even the 125 bike and Class was still too much for a true beginner,
and now its mostly 250f or 450f For adult beginners, is that any better?

I honestly think there should Be a XR100 class for beginners or some kind of air-cooled bike class.
I think both of my friends that Raced briefly and got hurt and quit would have liked it and raced longer if there had been a lower starting point and they could have moved up when actually ready.
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Tarz483
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Tarz483 6/1/2021 11:39am
6/1/2021 11:39am
rbspecial138 wrote:
I agree with all the stuff said above, however there are some rules that are in place that prevent people from moving up. For instance, I...
I agree with all the stuff said above, however there are some rules that are in place that prevent people from moving up. For instance, I am only able to ride 'C' off-road in the district 36 off road series because I have not accumulated enough 'advancement points' to be moved into B. Normally this would not be a problem to accumulate enough points, but I primarily race moto, and race a few oddball off-road events just for fun. (therefore not accumulating enough advancement points per year) This puts the responsibility again on the promoter to enforce reasonable rules to help people move people up.
I always thought you could move up voluntarily? I knw a few that went to B because they felt there would be less carnage in the first corner, and they did it voluntarily but that was in the 90's
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Mr. Afterbar
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Mr. Afterbar 6/1/2021 11:44am
6/1/2021 11:44am Edited Date/Time 6/1/2021 11:53am
Quit running a C class at Loretta's. Make 250 B have an age limit of 18 for Loretta's. Don't keep points for C class locally.
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Pistonslap
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Pistonslap 6/1/2021 11:54am
6/1/2021 11:54am
Tarz483 wrote:
I always thought you could move up voluntarily? I knw a few that went to B because they felt there would be less carnage in the...
I always thought you could move up voluntarily? I knw a few that went to B because they felt there would be less carnage in the first corner, and they did it voluntarily but that was in the 90's
I was one of those guys. Lol
C was out of control but off the gas
B was out of control but on the gas
A was in control and on the gas
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SCC
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SCC 6/1/2021 12:06pm
6/1/2021 12:06pm
cable wrote:
they need to use colored backgrounds for different classes. then you feel cool with the Yellow for B class or Red for A class.. once you...
they need to use colored backgrounds for different classes. then you feel cool with the Yellow for B class or Red for A class.. once you can identify a bike/rider based on class i think that would help.. cant look cool with the C class background rolling down the highway..
Yep C class backgrounds need to be neon pink for all ama events and at the ranch.
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blaze 57
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blaze 57 6/1/2021 12:17pm
6/1/2021 12:17pm Edited Date/Time 6/1/2021 12:21pm
Its the same way in the various vet novice classes. That is sand bag city too. Everyone should be dicing fairly close. If you have one of two guys totally running away with a class then time to move up. I just saw that at the vet national last weekend at Tr-Cities here in Washington in the plus 60 novice class. We used to call them "cherry pickers".

There is also a danger aspect sand baggers cause when you have a new novice "rolling" some of the more sketchy jumps and the sandbagger jumping on to them.
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Titan1
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Titan1 6/1/2021 12:21pm
6/1/2021 12:21pm
Just stop scoring the C class...no trophies, no results posted, in fact, don't even waive a checkered flag at the end of the race, (waive a black flag)...let them line up, race their motos, get experience, learn...but like coach pitch baseball for my son, don't keep score, no points championships, no trophies. No fan fair...and they could even do a "discounted" entrance fee.

LL's would be a different deal...but for all the local series around the country, treating the beginner class like the beginner class, would encourage people to move up.
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blaze 57
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blaze 57 6/1/2021 12:27pm
6/1/2021 12:27pm
Press516 wrote:
There is no honor among thieves.... That's C class MX today. In my race days, it was Novice, Intermediate and Expert. And if you had 2...
There is no honor among thieves.... That's C class MX today.


In my race days, it was Novice, Intermediate and Expert. And if you had 2 wins in any class you were automatically bumped up. We always wanted to bump up as quickly as possible. You always get faster chasing/racing guys that are faster than you. Why stunt your growth staying back with slower guys? There were always guys that raced with you at other tracks and would call you out if you tried to sandbag...
Oh yeah! back in the 70-80's you did not dare sand bag. You would be the laughing stock of the race and YES get called out and called a cherry-picker in front of everyone. Sandbagging back then was really frowned upon and never put up with. People just didn't do it like I see today and yep two wins you move up. Back then you couldn't wait to move up to a higher class. It was a status symbol with hard work.
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kapaa10
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kapaa10 6/1/2021 12:35pm
6/1/2021 12:35pm
I watched a "first race" 50 class that was supposed to be a kids very first race. There were kids that had race bikes and practice bikes racing this race, dad has a headphone and is sweeping the start gate for them. Then you had kids that looked scared outta their mind that you could tell don't ride that much. Then the gate dropped and some of the kids were absolutely ripping and some looked VERY beginner, barely could ride. I will say that my son rides a lot and is pretty fast, his buddy races every weekend here in so cal and usually wins or runner ups and does LL and all that and they battle at the practice track but my son has never raced so I guess he would race as a first timer but I guess he would look like a sandbagger even thou it would be his first race.
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Lucifa12345 6/1/2021 12:40pm
6/1/2021 12:40pm
Because they are a bunch of pussies that are to scared to race against their own level in fear of being beaten.
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MX Warrior Dad 6/1/2021 1:20pm
6/1/2021 1:20pm
Take every rider from every C class that attempts to qualify from the area qualifiers to the final riders that make the ranch and add up the registration fees, the race entry fees and the gate entry fees and add all of that money up.

There is your reason. Simple reason for every class actually. It's a business and it's about the money
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fullysicmate 6/1/2021 1:28pm
6/1/2021 1:28pm
Cause everyone needs a trophy......

Have a local enduro event here recently with 80-90 entrants, 3 nominated in the senior open class, 40ish nominated in the clubman class, the guy that won clubman (and 20 others) have been racing for 15+ years.....Boils my piss that they would rather win the shit class than get last (or third) in the good class. There needs to be a stop to it, call the lower class novice, and only let people who have been riding for 2 years max in.
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Moto X Racer
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Moto X Racer 6/1/2021 1:46pm
6/1/2021 1:46pm
rbspecial138 wrote:
I agree with all the stuff said above, however there are some rules that are in place that prevent people from moving up. For instance, I...
I agree with all the stuff said above, however there are some rules that are in place that prevent people from moving up. For instance, I am only able to ride 'C' off-road in the district 36 off road series because I have not accumulated enough 'advancement points' to be moved into B. Normally this would not be a problem to accumulate enough points, but I primarily race moto, and race a few oddball off-road events just for fun. (therefore not accumulating enough advancement points per year) This puts the responsibility again on the promoter to enforce reasonable rules to help people move people up.
Tarz483 wrote:
I always thought you could move up voluntarily? I knw a few that went to B because they felt there would be less carnage in the...
I always thought you could move up voluntarily? I knw a few that went to B because they felt there would be less carnage in the first corner, and they did it voluntarily but that was in the 90's
You can move up anytime you want in moto. In off road you have to earn the promotion.

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SmokinJoe439 6/1/2021 1:56pm
6/1/2021 1:56pm
MX Warrior Dad wrote:
Take every rider from every C class that attempts to qualify from the area qualifiers to the final riders that make the ranch and add up...
Take every rider from every C class that attempts to qualify from the area qualifiers to the final riders that make the ranch and add up the registration fees, the race entry fees and the gate entry fees and add all of that money up.

There is your reason. Simple reason for every class actually. It's a business and it's about the money
So your saying it's the promoters fault they encourage it with their greed. If there was no C class at all they'd sign up for B. Revenue still there.

I was at this practice day once and this moto bro. Was all bragging to his slower friends. How he normally races B and dropped to C and got 3rd at Loretta's. I was right there pitted next to them. He was kinda bragging to me too.

I said without hesitation a mocking tone - I'm supposed to be impressed you got 3rd in beginner wow. And he's out there riding the pro/intermediate practice group. Clearing the triple hitting everything.

And if it chased off clowns like him from going. Oh well good riddance. Dudes a poor sport anyways. I've played many team sports as a kid and wrestling. Moto is the only sport I've ever encountered this bragging of winning the beginner class.
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AverageFade
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AverageFade 6/1/2021 2:31pm
6/1/2021 2:31pm
Swapmoto Races run a "Sportsman Novice 125cc-450cc" which is supposed to be a middle ground of being a true beginner and a Novice rider (I think but not sure). But you would often see dudes in the top 3 or so destroying everyone else. If thats what the class is for then you shouldn't see dudes running the same lap times as the C class winners and being near the faster B riders at times. Especially since this class being used as an example has 125s and 250s (young kids or women race it too) that are going up against dudes racing 450 C all the time.
FWYT
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FWYT 6/1/2021 2:58pm
6/1/2021 2:58pm
So how do we get the for-fun-weekend-racing culture back to the idea of- "If you're smoking everybody, move up a class!"

Do the promoters put a giant "Sandbaggers GTFO! at the sign up booth? A wall of shame?

Maybe promoters, since everyone uses transponders now and lap times are available, maybe promoters after the race also print a full lap time list ranking the riders by their fastest lap. "Yo Fred! You were in the C class?! Your lap time puts you midpack A!!! What the fuck!" 🤣🤣🤣
Of course that does not do anything for the race that just took place but maybe it starts the ball rolling in that direction.
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Richard Tease II 6/1/2021 3:12pm
6/1/2021 3:12pm
It’s a bragging point for their trainers / compounds
doofus
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doofus 6/1/2021 3:16pm
6/1/2021 3:16pm
yz133rider wrote:
The fix is to use transponders and group riders based on lap times instead of allowing them to self identify as a c rider even though...
The fix is to use transponders and group riders based on lap times instead of allowing them to self identify as a c rider even though they hit every jump and scrub past actual c riders.

I think this is a huge issue that needs to be addressed too. Because actual beginners enter c class and get smoked. They get demoralized and then don’t come back or never enter to begin with. C should be legit beginners.
We somewhat did this when I raced midgets, you had to qualify and your lap time determined your starting position but was inverted to help make a better race... AKA fastest qualifier would start last.

Problem is... people sandbagged qualifying too.

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