Are the best racers in the world training wrong?

4/15/2021 12:24pm
Raikzz wrote:
More muscle means it needs more oxygen, meaning you get winded faster. Facts.
Completely false. In fact, bigger muscles have bigger capillaries that feed more nutrients to the body and gets rid of waste faster, in doing so enhances cardio.
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4/15/2021 12:28pm Edited Date/Time 4/15/2021 12:30pm
You’re overthinking it. No certain gym exercise is going to make you faster. Nothing can really help you throw around a 450 except throwing around a...
You’re overthinking it. No certain gym exercise is going to make you faster. Nothing can really help you throw around a 450 except throwing around a 450. Plus, If you’re relying on muscle to ride the bike, you’re really doing it wrong.
False, muscle helps you control the bike, not fight it. Being stronger on the big will in fact make you faster in your abilities to ride. You will be in more control, your body will work more efficiently and it will give you confidence.

A strong core is everything on a motorcycle.
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4/15/2021 12:40pm
curmudgeon wrote:
The guy busted a collarbone, no amount bulk from weight training is going to change that. You don't need to add bulk to gain extra soft...
The guy busted a collarbone, no amount bulk from weight training is going to change that. You don't need to add bulk to gain extra soft tissue resilience from weight training either. That is basically his natural size and it's fast. The only way he could put on bulk and retain it would be through using the needle.
The only way he could put on bulk and retain it would be through using the needle.

Absolutely ridiculous. He could look a lot different in 3 months with a different diet and a different weight regimen.

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Racer_336
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4/15/2021 12:53pm
First off, AC is a tall dude. Secondly, he’s got decent muscular size for a rider his height. Thirdly, they have the top people in and around this sport and have been around this sport for a long long time. I’m pretty sure they know what they are doing.

The Shop

4/15/2021 1:28pm Edited Date/Time 4/15/2021 1:59pm
Raikzz wrote:
More muscle means it needs more oxygen, meaning you get winded faster. Facts.
UpTiTe wrote:
Completely false. In fact, bigger muscles have bigger capillaries that feed more nutrients to the body and gets rid of waste faster, in doing so enhances...
Completely false. In fact, bigger muscles have bigger capillaries that feed more nutrients to the body and gets rid of waste faster, in doing so enhances cardio.
Those bigger muscles will have an increased not larger capillary density if subjected to the correct aerobic load/intensity thus providing an improved oxygenated blood supply and waste removal capability that would help with cardiovascular stress, they key for me is including sufficient cardio at intensities defined from blood lactate testing to bring about those structural changes, unless this is done then aerobic capacity would diminish not improve with greater muscle mass.
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ZOBITO
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4/15/2021 2:08pm
Brent wrote:
Motocross is not an upper body sport. Rick Johnson told me he has "String bean arms". none of the worlds fastest motocross riders have upper body...
Motocross is not an upper body sport.

Rick Johnson told me he has "String bean arms".

none of the worlds fastest motocross riders have upper body bulk it is not needed when you ride a bike with your legs.
A weak upper body like Paulin's would be fine by me.
Laughing

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SoCalMX70
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4/15/2021 2:20pm
Perhaps too many genetic differences to make any concrete conclusions about the absolute best training method.

Do the top trainers apply their "method" to their entire roster in the off season with very little wiggle room? That certainly wouldn't be ideal, right? I have no idea if they do or don't, it's a legit question.

Guys who have a tendency to break bones need to stimulate bone growth, I would think. So maybe bias the exercises to more high impact/weight based training for those particular riders. Whatever maximizes their chances to keep taking gate drops and not lose seat time to progress in skill.

Like suspension setup, there's always going to be trade offs. You can try to tick all the boxes (cardio, strength, endurance, balance, coordination, etc.), but special focus should be on your genetically weak areas.
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StevenMX
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4/15/2021 2:33pm Edited Date/Time 4/15/2021 2:36pm
I find this topic interesting and something maybe I can add a different perspective to...

Background/Bio:
I was a professional athlete on the US Biathlon/All-Army team competing around the world at the Olympic/World Cup/IBU level for a number of years 2010-2014. This sport is nordic/cross country skiing and shooting. Arguably cross country skiing is the hardest cardio sport in the world (the highest VO2 max and average professional recordings among professional athletes show this, including above Tour De France pro cyclists... granted I haven't seen motocross vO2 numbers posted for the industry, I'm sure it is high). Climbing hills and sprinting for 25-50mins, always at elevation.

I just recently this year got into motocross/riding at a late age (33), but noticed in watching many videos and diving head first into riding a lot of the similarities I did in my training that these pro athletes are doing. (Including using that concept 2 skierg machine posted above that was designed for cross country skiing Smile haha... spent hundreds of hours on that machine).

While Biathlon is no where NEAR the impact sport of Moto/Supercross, having functional strength training is absolutely beneficial and helps prevent injury for any sport. The science is in knowing how much of each ingredient you need to be at the absolute peak.... here for instance is a breakdown of a typical Olympic biathlon athlete
I can confirm, these numbers closely match what I and the rest of the US team were doing during my time in the sport. Typically waking up at 7am, did a 1-1/2-3hr morning session of skiing/training at usually a Level 3 maybe 4 pace, lactate testing done on EVERY lap so our coaches knew exactly where our bodies where at for every training lap we did in conjunction with HR monitors, checking heart rate variability (resting HR) as well as how quickly we could come down from peak HR to resting, etc. There was no "I feel good, my HR is at 145 (my L3 zone)"... if my MMOL (lactate #s) showed otherwise from prior labs then I came down to the level required so I didn't compromise my training session and future training days ahead. Our second afternoon session was a strength program done 2-3 times a week (weights/functional strength/mobility/balance exercises) for 30min-1hr... never more. The biggest misconception I think people have of athletes or training in general is that you must train HARD everyday to improve and be the best... but it couldn't be further from the truth. An Olympic level athlete spends 90% of their time at a pace/training intensity below max threshold and MOSTLY at a fairly normal/easy pace. Weight training is normally a HIGH intensity exercise when lifting weights (for balance or functional strength it can be done at a lower level) but that is why it wasn't incorporated into our program 5-7x a week. It's used to boost the overall fitness of the athlete, increasing that threshold/power output/watts, but you will see negative results doing that daily without proper rest intervals between sessions. I suspect motocross alike, has that balance. You have a limited amount of time with the riders to go ride (build the functional strength/technique), build their base cardio program, then use the weights to improve max output and strength. Most of that training if like ours is done in the offseason as we prep to build up for the race season, usually a 2-3 month window. Once race season hits, and you are traveling (for me it was internationally) the time you have to sit/find a gym, continue proper training sessions is greatly reduced. So what do you prioritize as an athlete? What will give the greatest return? Technique and seat time right... just like for me it was skiing and improving technique to the umpteenth degree of perfection. Lifting weights might give me say a 1% increase in performance/times.... working on skiing and technique 10+%.

Another great point brought up is the genetics. It's absolutely a factor in every athlete. I've played ice hockey, soccer, etc. and noticed I do not have the injury list like some of my teammates do. Some had multiple ACL tears, etc. They were taller, didn't lift/workout/exercise to the same degree, but overall had different genetics and skeletal/muscular makeup. That is why you see pro level athletes of all sports, some are more prone to knee injuries or some seem bullet proof and it's part of their scouting report. It can also be technique related right? A football player who continually blows out his knee or shoulder maybe doing something slightly different in his technique to exacerbate that issue, much like a motocross rider might have worse technique inducing a more susceptible injury pattern. Part of that is prior injuries, their genetic makeup and of course their workout/training routine.

In the end, adding weight training is 100% beneficial to these riders for building bone and muscle density... it will help all else being equal when they hit the ground and giving them functional strength for maneuvering the bike. The biggest issue is giving these athletes time to recover/rest and fitting that training in their already insane schedules. There is a balance required, and cost benefit for every single piece of their training program that is factored into that performance. As such, it's going to be limited by those factors. Lastly, all these injuries and crashes are unique, and as such it's kind of hard to say oh this other rider would of walked away ok or not.... the only way to fairly evaluate that is having the same rider do the EXACT same crash.

Just my .2c
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4/15/2021 2:41pm
MXJORRIT wrote:
Really interesting topic. I actually just got home from a physiotherapy/medical workshop where we partially talked about how hypertrophy ( building up muscles ) can affect...
Really interesting topic. I actually just got home from a physiotherapy/medical workshop where we partially talked about how hypertrophy ( building up muscles ) can affect the pro athlete. First of all I totally agree with the OP, building up muscle mass is probably next to nutrition and flexibility one of the main factors for preventing injuries, since strength reinforces muscles, tendons, ligaments and most important bones. Studies have shown that especially weight-lifting and high-impact exercises ( like jumping ) affect osteoblasts within the bone, the cells which increase bone density. But you always have to keep in mind that pro mx/sx racer's bodies are required to perform at an extreme high level of cardiovascular intensity for 20-40 minutes. Therefore having too much mass can be counterproductive since muscles require large amounts of oxygen to function properly and the body is just not able to compensate for that. And one thing I personally think should be considered partially is genetics since it also regulates bone mineral density. Take a look at Herlings this guy is probably next to Gajser the fittest mx racer I've seen, but he's prone to get hurt as soon as he crashes and when Gajser crashes going Mach2 he just bounces off the ground like nothing happened.
Exactly. There's a sweet spot which I feel is on the slightly stockier side, at least in relation to where most guys are now. Probably close to Webb's build I think, and he too seems to bounce/recover very well. I have to wonder about supplements too. I personally feel there is a ton to gain for most of these top guys but was surprised to hear Aldon say multiple times that he doesn't believe in them and he just gets his riders on a wide variety of fruit and veg. For example we have all seen how important bone density is for injury prevention, why aren't these guys on high dose D3 + K2? Or for Tendons + Ligaments + Fascia why aren't they taking high dose Collagen, MSM, Vit C before and after every session? Just these two groups alone would have a big impact on injury prevention, recovery, and probably even reduce arm pump a ton.
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murph783
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4/15/2021 3:03pm
Brent wrote:
Motocross is not an upper body sport. Rick Johnson told me he has "String bean arms". none of the worlds fastest motocross riders have upper body...
Motocross is not an upper body sport.

Rick Johnson told me he has "String bean arms".

none of the worlds fastest motocross riders have upper body bulk it is not needed when you ride a bike with your legs.
McG194 wrote:
You completely missed my point. I'm not talking about an aid to riding the bike, I'm talking adding musculature to prevent injury.
dbx33 wrote:
it is proven muscle doesn't prevent injury. lighter and more flexible impacts do
Proven where?
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McG194
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4/15/2021 3:05pm
Racer_336 wrote:
First off, AC is a tall dude. Secondly, he’s got decent muscular size for a rider his height. Thirdly, they have the top people in and...
First off, AC is a tall dude. Secondly, he’s got decent muscular size for a rider his height. Thirdly, they have the top people in and around this sport and have been around this sport for a long long time. I’m pretty sure they know what they are doing.

I hate that I mentioned AC because it looks like I'm bagging on him which is incredibly far from the truth. I hope he ends up being a multi time champion because I think he has a great personality, is well spoken and engaging and would be a great ambassador of the sport. I mentioned him because I think he now looks leaner than he did when he posted those Concept2 videos. It gave me flashbacks to Jeff Stanton when MC surpassed him he got crazy lean and he admitted he went too far.
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McG194
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4/15/2021 3:15pm Edited Date/Time 4/15/2021 3:15pm
StevenMX's post seems to be too long for me to copy but he knows more than me. Impressive resume.
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StevenMX
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4/15/2021 3:25pm
McG194 wrote:
StevenMX's post seems to be too long for me to copy but he knows more than me. Impressive resume.
I try and provide a different insight where I can Smile ... Right now I need to get my moto skill up to my athletic skill, I don't need weights for a LOOOONG time at this rate haha.
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Camp332
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4/15/2021 3:48pm
McG194 wrote:
StevenMX's post seems to be too long for me to copy but he knows more than me. Impressive resume.
StevenMX wrote:
I try and provide a different insight where I can :)... Right now I need to get my moto skill up to my athletic skill, I...
I try and provide a different insight where I can Smile ... Right now I need to get my moto skill up to my athletic skill, I don't need weights for a LOOOONG time at this rate haha.
Appreciate your input here StevenMX. Interesting info.

In Summary: Lifting is good!

Do you even lift Bro!?
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CPR
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4/15/2021 3:49pm
McG194 wrote:
You really don't understand what a hypothesis is do you?

The title of the thread is a FREAKING QUESTION!!!!!

Well then the answer is NO
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StevenMX
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4/15/2021 3:58pm Edited Date/Time 4/15/2021 4:09pm
Exactly. There's a sweet spot which I feel is on the slightly stockier side, at least in relation to where most guys are now. Probably close...
Exactly. There's a sweet spot which I feel is on the slightly stockier side, at least in relation to where most guys are now. Probably close to Webb's build I think, and he too seems to bounce/recover very well. I have to wonder about supplements too. I personally feel there is a ton to gain for most of these top guys but was surprised to hear Aldon say multiple times that he doesn't believe in them and he just gets his riders on a wide variety of fruit and veg. For example we have all seen how important bone density is for injury prevention, why aren't these guys on high dose D3 + K2? Or for Tendons + Ligaments + Fascia why aren't they taking high dose Collagen, MSM, Vit C before and after every session? Just these two groups alone would have a big impact on injury prevention, recovery, and probably even reduce arm pump a ton.
The one caveat I'd point out here is that being in peak physical fitness and strength is unique to the individuals body makeup and just because Webb "looks stockier" doesn't equate to saying other riders/athletes who look skinnier are on a different workout routine. You could take the entire 450 sx class and have them ALL do the exact same training regime and look completely different "physically". So you have to be careful trying to draw that conclusion. Genetic makeup has a lot to do with this once you get to a certain level. A small guy with a smaller torso or shorter arms will look "stocky" compared to a rider of same height with a larger torso, etc.

The supplement argument is probably convoluted by a few factors of what is allowed by WADA, the vitamin/supplement intake that we actually absorb vs the benefits of whole foods where there are parts that you can't supplement for or replicate by supplementing... even protein like Whey Protein vs eating meat with the capillaries and complexities of amino acids, ratios of minerals and other essential nutrients found in natural foods that the body is optimized to breakdown and uptake as a source of fuel. I'm sure they have a pretty balanced and strong diet that optimizes as much as possible with some supplementation, but at some point you got to draw the line. I know I'd hate waking up trying to take 30 pills/supplements on top of eating a healthy diet. Then you have the actual studies of this supplementation vs weight training and again getting that balance across all the other variables that go into this equation.
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StevenMX
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4/15/2021 4:08pm
McG194 wrote:
StevenMX's post seems to be too long for me to copy but he knows more than me. Impressive resume.
StevenMX wrote:
I try and provide a different insight where I can :)... Right now I need to get my moto skill up to my athletic skill, I...
I try and provide a different insight where I can Smile ... Right now I need to get my moto skill up to my athletic skill, I don't need weights for a LOOOONG time at this rate haha.
Camp332 wrote:
Appreciate your input here StevenMX. Interesting info.

In Summary: Lifting is good!

Do you even lift Bro!?
Haha yep, weight training with cardio is optimal Smile . Need to get back in the gym myself! Been spending all my free time at the track !
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StevenMX
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4/15/2021 4:31pm
SoCalMX70 wrote:
Perhaps too many genetic differences to make any concrete conclusions about the absolute best training method. Do the top trainers apply their "method" to their entire...
Perhaps too many genetic differences to make any concrete conclusions about the absolute best training method.

Do the top trainers apply their "method" to their entire roster in the off season with very little wiggle room? That certainly wouldn't be ideal, right? I have no idea if they do or don't, it's a legit question.

Guys who have a tendency to break bones need to stimulate bone growth, I would think. So maybe bias the exercises to more high impact/weight based training for those particular riders. Whatever maximizes their chances to keep taking gate drops and not lose seat time to progress in skill.

Like suspension setup, there's always going to be trade offs. You can try to tick all the boxes (cardio, strength, endurance, balance, coordination, etc.), but special focus should be on your genetically weak areas.
James,

To answer your question about training methods being applied broadly across a race team. In my experience, when I trained we all had the same training schedule/plan.... however, as the training day went, it was individualized by our results (HR,Lactate, etc.) and changed to support that. We were each unique in what we could tolerate and handle vs the other, I could lift more weights/HIT training efficiently than my teammates... they could ski more laps/longer than I could because they were more efficient, so our training at the end of the week/day ended up being different. But baseline, we had the same plan to start with, then it was tailored to the individual for how our actual performance/metrics showed up in the testing. In addition, we have our days where sometimes the body is broken down more, I might need a day off or light day vs the scheduled plan... and others where I can push longer/harder without going over my threshold numbers. It definitely varied, but a good chunk (80% or more) was the same across the team I would train with. Like you said as well, if I was technically deficient in an area, I would spend additional time on that and maybe put less time in another area where I was excelling if the benefit was greater.

I remember training with one Olympic athlete who was just a genetic freak... and he could train for hours past most of us and had one of the highest VO2 max ever. He didn't even have close to the best technique amongst the team (actually the worst) but was so genetically gifted he could muscle/will his way through the race course just as fast or faster then a technically superior skier who was at an elite elite level fitness. That is just how crazy his genetic ability was. Like Secretariat the thoroughbred horse who had a freak genetic build with a heart estimated at 2.5x the size of the average horse, you just can't train that lol...
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APLMAN99
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4/15/2021 4:59pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
I stated that the title of the thread was a question, but then you posit your hypothesis based and you explicitly stated that you developed this...
I stated that the title of the thread was a question, but then you posit your hypothesis based and you explicitly stated that you developed this based on your observation of AC.

You appear to be so entrenched in your bias that you are not even able to process conflicting anecdotal evidence that counters the anecdotal evidence that you developed your initial thought on.

A hypothesis isn't a question, it's a statement of explanation that you believe can/should be proven. The question is not the hypothesis, your statements in the opening post lay out your hypothesis. There is not a single question in the first post, just several statements of belief that form the structure of your hypothesis.

So perhaps you should learn what a hypothesis is?
McG194 wrote:
[b]Hypothesis: noun A supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.[/b] This part of the discussion...
Hypothesis:

noun
A supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.


This part of the discussion is tiresome, I have said numerous times that I proposed a question. I don't know the answer except by using logic which admittedly may be wrong. You seem to not be interested in logic and are digging your heels in that I have a preconceived belief.
Again, you are confused. The title was a question, the first post was your hypothesis and in your own words it was spurred by your anecdotal observation of AC.

As already pointed out, a hypothesis is not a question. It’s an explanation. Your hypothesis was a way to try to answer the title question.

And since you used AC as your ‘limited evidence’, I mentioned Reynard as a counter. Not sure why that triggered you so badly, but apparently it did.

Is that clearer?
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Camp332
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4/15/2021 5:09pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
I stated that the title of the thread was a question, but then you posit your hypothesis based and you explicitly stated that you developed this...
I stated that the title of the thread was a question, but then you posit your hypothesis based and you explicitly stated that you developed this based on your observation of AC.

You appear to be so entrenched in your bias that you are not even able to process conflicting anecdotal evidence that counters the anecdotal evidence that you developed your initial thought on.

A hypothesis isn't a question, it's a statement of explanation that you believe can/should be proven. The question is not the hypothesis, your statements in the opening post lay out your hypothesis. There is not a single question in the first post, just several statements of belief that form the structure of your hypothesis.

So perhaps you should learn what a hypothesis is?
McG194 wrote:
[b]Hypothesis: noun A supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.[/b] This part of the discussion...
Hypothesis:

noun
A supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.


This part of the discussion is tiresome, I have said numerous times that I proposed a question. I don't know the answer except by using logic which admittedly may be wrong. You seem to not be interested in logic and are digging your heels in that I have a preconceived belief.
APLMAN99 wrote:
Again, you are confused. The title was a question, the first post was your hypothesis and in your own words it was spurred by your anecdotal...
Again, you are confused. The title was a question, the first post was your hypothesis and in your own words it was spurred by your anecdotal observation of AC.

As already pointed out, a hypothesis is not a question. It’s an explanation. Your hypothesis was a way to try to answer the title question.

And since you used AC as your ‘limited evidence’, I mentioned Reynard as a counter. Not sure why that triggered you so badly, but apparently it did.

Is that clearer?
Reynard didn't drink milk Bro. Your counter is flawed! I kid.
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APLMAN99
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4/15/2021 5:12pm
StevenMX wrote:
Haha yep, weight training with cardio is optimal :). Need to get back in the gym myself! Been spending all my free time at the track...
Haha yep, weight training with cardio is optimal Smile . Need to get back in the gym myself! Been spending all my free time at the track !
Steven, you may have overlapped with one of our local kids (not a kid anymore, obviously!) on the Olympic teams, Torin Koos. I have been around his dad several times, but never actually met Torin personally. I remember seeing him once after his first Olympics and he truly looked almost like a real life superhero. It’s kind of crazy to imagine that there were people as fit as that guy, let alone fitter!

If I remember correctly for one of the Olympics we had Koos in men’s XC, and Tom Rothrock in Alpine skiing both from this area competing. It was pretty fun to watch with the local connection!
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StevenMX
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4/15/2021 5:33pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
Steven, you may have overlapped with one of our local kids (not a kid anymore, obviously!) on the Olympic teams, Torin Koos. I have been around...
Steven, you may have overlapped with one of our local kids (not a kid anymore, obviously!) on the Olympic teams, Torin Koos. I have been around his dad several times, but never actually met Torin personally. I remember seeing him once after his first Olympics and he truly looked almost like a real life superhero. It’s kind of crazy to imagine that there were people as fit as that guy, let alone fitter!

If I remember correctly for one of the Olympics we had Koos in men’s XC, and Tom Rothrock in Alpine skiing both from this area competing. It was pretty fun to watch with the local connection!
He was right during that timeframe for sure... albeit on the cross country side so we didn't overlap but any of those x-country skiers are insanely fit. Our "off/rest" day during training camp was usually a 40-80 mile bike ride or 4 hour mountain hike at a decent speed for Sunday rest haha. It's pretty amazing what the human body is capable of with a dedicated training plan, proper rest and nutrition. Having only that as your job helps lol.
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APLMAN99
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4/15/2021 5:47pm
StevenMX wrote:
He was right during that timeframe for sure... albeit on the cross country side so we didn't overlap but any of those x-country skiers are insanely...
He was right during that timeframe for sure... albeit on the cross country side so we didn't overlap but any of those x-country skiers are insanely fit. Our "off/rest" day during training camp was usually a 40-80 mile bike ride or 4 hour mountain hike at a decent speed for Sunday rest haha. It's pretty amazing what the human body is capable of with a dedicated training plan, proper rest and nutrition. Having only that as your job helps lol.
Yeah, I know that Torin is only 6’2 or so, but something about his build and fitness made him seem like he was 6’7 or something. I’m almost 6’5 and outweigh him by 100 pounds or so, but seeing him from 15-20 feet away made me feel meek and tiny!!!

During the last decade or slightly more we’ve had several of those ‘freak’ athletes from the area. Laura Valaas competed for the Nordic national team, but missed out on the Olympics and then ended up becoming an accomplished cycler. Rothrock went to at least 1 Olympic Games and competed for many years on the World Cup circuit, I just looked and Koos was actually on FOUR Olympic teams, and Tyler Farrar was a pretty good cycling sprinter on several Grand Tour teams, winning a TdF stage on the 4th of July.

Sadly, not one bit of that has led to even an ounce of fitness for me!!!!!
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4/15/2021 6:40pm
When i crushed some vertebrae due to running out of talent. The surgeon said having a strong neck traps etc. may have been life saving. I tore everything in neck and upper back. Tendons, muscles, nerves. Before it happened, I would lift 3 days, hard cardio 2 days, ride day. rest. I would hang weighted straps on my head and do every direction lifts. Heavy Shrugs etc. i dont see how it hurt thats for sure. plus as camp knows, big pecs get the se😋. Huge delts make the ladies melt👍💪🔥
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Camp332
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4/15/2021 6:51pm
When i crushed some vertebrae due to running out of talent. The surgeon said having a strong neck traps etc. may have been life saving. I...
When i crushed some vertebrae due to running out of talent. The surgeon said having a strong neck traps etc. may have been life saving. I tore everything in neck and upper back. Tendons, muscles, nerves. Before it happened, I would lift 3 days, hard cardio 2 days, ride day. rest. I would hang weighted straps on my head and do every direction lifts. Heavy Shrugs etc. i dont see how it hurt thats for sure. plus as camp knows, big pecs get the se😋. Huge delts make the ladies melt👍💪🔥
Smoothie Bro!

Up Wind
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4/15/2021 6:53pm
StevenMX wrote:
I find this topic interesting and something maybe I can add a different perspective to... Background/Bio: I was a professional athlete on the US Biathlon/All-Army team...
I find this topic interesting and something maybe I can add a different perspective to...

Background/Bio:
I was a professional athlete on the US Biathlon/All-Army team competing around the world at the Olympic/World Cup/IBU level for a number of years 2010-2014. This sport is nordic/cross country skiing and shooting. Arguably cross country skiing is the hardest cardio sport in the world (the highest VO2 max and average professional recordings among professional athletes show this, including above Tour De France pro cyclists... granted I haven't seen motocross vO2 numbers posted for the industry, I'm sure it is high). Climbing hills and sprinting for 25-50mins, always at elevation.

I just recently this year got into motocross/riding at a late age (33), but noticed in watching many videos and diving head first into riding a lot of the similarities I did in my training that these pro athletes are doing. (Including using that concept 2 skierg machine posted above that was designed for cross country skiing Smile haha... spent hundreds of hours on that machine).

While Biathlon is no where NEAR the impact sport of Moto/Supercross, having functional strength training is absolutely beneficial and helps prevent injury for any sport. The science is in knowing how much of each ingredient you need to be at the absolute peak.... here for instance is a breakdown of a typical Olympic biathlon athlete
I can confirm, these numbers closely match what I and the rest of the US team were doing during my time in the sport. Typically waking up at 7am, did a 1-1/2-3hr morning session of skiing/training at usually a Level 3 maybe 4 pace, lactate testing done on EVERY lap so our coaches knew exactly where our bodies where at for every training lap we did in conjunction with HR monitors, checking heart rate variability (resting HR) as well as how quickly we could come down from peak HR to resting, etc. There was no "I feel good, my HR is at 145 (my L3 zone)"... if my MMOL (lactate #s) showed otherwise from prior labs then I came down to the level required so I didn't compromise my training session and future training days ahead. Our second afternoon session was a strength program done 2-3 times a week (weights/functional strength/mobility/balance exercises) for 30min-1hr... never more. The biggest misconception I think people have of athletes or training in general is that you must train HARD everyday to improve and be the best... but it couldn't be further from the truth. An Olympic level athlete spends 90% of their time at a pace/training intensity below max threshold and MOSTLY at a fairly normal/easy pace. Weight training is normally a HIGH intensity exercise when lifting weights (for balance or functional strength it can be done at a lower level) but that is why it wasn't incorporated into our program 5-7x a week. It's used to boost the overall fitness of the athlete, increasing that threshold/power output/watts, but you will see negative results doing that daily without proper rest intervals between sessions. I suspect motocross alike, has that balance. You have a limited amount of time with the riders to go ride (build the functional strength/technique), build their base cardio program, then use the weights to improve max output and strength. Most of that training if like ours is done in the offseason as we prep to build up for the race season, usually a 2-3 month window. Once race season hits, and you are traveling (for me it was internationally) the time you have to sit/find a gym, continue proper training sessions is greatly reduced. So what do you prioritize as an athlete? What will give the greatest return? Technique and seat time right... just like for me it was skiing and improving technique to the umpteenth degree of perfection. Lifting weights might give me say a 1% increase in performance/times.... working on skiing and technique 10+%.

Another great point brought up is the genetics. It's absolutely a factor in every athlete. I've played ice hockey, soccer, etc. and noticed I do not have the injury list like some of my teammates do. Some had multiple ACL tears, etc. They were taller, didn't lift/workout/exercise to the same degree, but overall had different genetics and skeletal/muscular makeup. That is why you see pro level athletes of all sports, some are more prone to knee injuries or some seem bullet proof and it's part of their scouting report. It can also be technique related right? A football player who continually blows out his knee or shoulder maybe doing something slightly different in his technique to exacerbate that issue, much like a motocross rider might have worse technique inducing a more susceptible injury pattern. Part of that is prior injuries, their genetic makeup and of course their workout/training routine.

In the end, adding weight training is 100% beneficial to these riders for building bone and muscle density... it will help all else being equal when they hit the ground and giving them functional strength for maneuvering the bike. The biggest issue is giving these athletes time to recover/rest and fitting that training in their already insane schedules. There is a balance required, and cost benefit for every single piece of their training program that is factored into that performance. As such, it's going to be limited by those factors. Lastly, all these injuries and crashes are unique, and as such it's kind of hard to say oh this other rider would of walked away ok or not.... the only way to fairly evaluate that is having the same rider do the EXACT same crash.

Just my .2c
Ok...News Flash! The best racers in SX/MX IMO give huge amounts of money to people that tell them what to do. If they are not paying direct, the team puts the big bucks in for them as part of their compensation package.. This could include up to 200,000k per year, plus win and championship bonuses. I would image the trainers would also control the amount of muscle mass.
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StevenMX
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4/15/2021 7:17pm
.... does what I say refute or even argue that conclusion ? I actually support that statement you mention. I simply was offering my life experience to further probe at the initial question being asked. Of course they spend money on training and have a team around them just for that. I did as well... it's not set in stone and as sports evolve so does the training regime/science behind it. I think the OP's original question was just asking whether the current trend for these teams who do spend $200k on training is perfectly optimized or is there something that could be added specifically in regards to the weight training balance. Always a good worthy discussion, that is how we evolve and push forward change in any profession. I'd be willing to bet 5-10-15 years ago the training regime of the top teams has evolved and been tweaked as new methods and data are collected. Rebalancing their training load, eliminating areas that maybe didn't translate into faster track times, etc. Simply to imply that paying money to experts is a set in stone recipe for success for these athletes is short sighted and doesn't further the growth of trying new techniques/methods. All of these athletes would gladly try new methods and do when allowed to further grow and give them that edge, even having the best of doctors/trainers is not the end of the line when pathfinding new ideas.
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CG118
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4/15/2021 7:25pm
Balance is basically fully established by the early teens. Get off the fucking BOSU.
Do the basics——squat, bench, deads, press. Then get your cardio; and lots of it if you are racing MX. It's not complicated. It’s HARD work, but it’s not that complicated. Faaack.
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CG118
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4/15/2021 7:29pm
Yes. Extra mass will help with injury prevention. Too much mass, and cardio suffers. Gotta have a happy medium.
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Camp332
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4/15/2021 7:42pm
Up Wind wrote:
Ok...News Flash! The best racers in SX/MX IMO give huge amounts of money to people that tell them what to do. If they are not paying...
Ok...News Flash! The best racers in SX/MX IMO give huge amounts of money to people that tell them what to do. If they are not paying direct, the team puts the big bucks in for them as part of their compensation package.. This could include up to 200,000k per year, plus win and championship bonuses. I would image the trainers would also control the amount of muscle mass.
News flash! Your post is lame. Delete it, and go bench Bro.
1

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