Are the best racers in the world training wrong?

Crash217 wrote:

I think its been said that Larocco could bench press about 400lbs. And Steward Baylor is killing it this year with weight training and increasing flexibility.

Chris_Buehler wrote:

Not a chance in hell Larocco could bench 400

murph783 wrote:

The one I always heard was that wardy could deadlift 400. Still a stretch, but doable I’m sure

APLMAN99 wrote:

Steven, you may have overlapped with one of our local kids (not a kid anymore, obviously!) on the Olympic teams, Torin Koos. I have been around...

Steven, you may have overlapped with one of our local kids (not a kid anymore, obviously!) on the Olympic teams, Torin Koos. I have been around his dad several times, but never actually met Torin personally. I remember seeing him once after his first Olympics and he truly looked almost like a real life superhero. It’s kind of crazy to imagine that there were people as fit as that guy, let alone fitter!

If I remember correctly for one of the Olympics we had Koos in men’s XC, and Tom Rothrock in Alpine skiing both from this area competing. It was pretty fun to watch with the local connection!

StevenMX wrote:

He was right during that timeframe for sure... albeit on the cross country side so we didn't overlap but any of those x-country skiers are insanely...

He was right during that timeframe for sure... albeit on the cross country side so we didn't overlap but any of those x-country skiers are insanely fit. Our "off/rest" day during training camp was usually a 40-80 mile bike ride or 4 hour mountain hike at a decent speed for Sunday rest haha. It's pretty amazing what the human body is capable of with a dedicated training plan, proper rest and nutrition. Having only that as your job helps lol.

smoothies862 wrote:

When i crushed some vertebrae due to running out of talent. The surgeon said having a strong neck traps etc. may have been life saving. I...

When i crushed some vertebrae due to running out of talent. The surgeon said having a strong neck traps etc. may have been life saving. I tore everything in neck and upper back. Tendons, muscles, nerves. Before it happened, I would lift 3 days, hard cardio 2 days, ride day. rest. I would hang weighted straps on my head and do every direction lifts. Heavy Shrugs etc. i dont see how it hurt thats for sure. plus as camp knows, big pecs get the se😋. Huge delts make the ladies melt👍💪🔥

StevenMX wrote:

I find this topic interesting and something maybe I can add a different perspective to... Background/Bio: I was a professional athlete on the US Biathlon/All-Army team...

I find this topic interesting and something maybe I can add a different perspective to...

Background/Bio:
I was a professional athlete on the US Biathlon/All-Army team competing around the world at the Olympic/World Cup/IBU level for a number of years 2010-2014. This sport is nordic/cross country skiing and shooting. Arguably cross country skiing is the hardest cardio sport in the world (the highest VO2 max and average professional recordings among professional athletes show this, including above Tour De France pro cyclists... granted I haven't seen motocross vO2 numbers posted for the industry, I'm sure it is high). Climbing hills and sprinting for 25-50mins, always at elevation.

I just recently this year got into motocross/riding at a late age (33), but noticed in watching many videos and diving head first into riding a lot of the similarities I did in my training that these pro athletes are doing. (Including using that concept 2 skierg machine posted above that was designed for cross country skiing haha... spent hundreds of hours on that machine).

While Biathlon is no where NEAR the impact sport of Moto/Supercross, having functional strength training is absolutely beneficial and helps prevent injury for any sport. The science is in knowing how much of each ingredient you need to be at the absolute peak.... here for instance is a breakdown of a typical Olympic biathlon athlete
I can confirm, these numbers closely match what I and the rest of the US team were doing during my time in the sport. Typically waking up at 7am, did a 1-1/2-3hr morning session of skiing/training at usually a Level 3 maybe 4 pace, lactate testing done on EVERY lap so our coaches knew exactly where our bodies where at for every training lap we did in conjunction with HR monitors, checking heart rate variability (resting HR) as well as how quickly we could come down from peak HR to resting, etc. There was no "I feel good, my HR is at 145 (my L3 zone)"... if my MMOL (lactate #s) showed otherwise from prior labs then I came down to the level required so I didn't compromise my training session and future training days ahead. Our second afternoon session was a strength program done 2-3 times a week (weights/functional strength/mobility/balance exercises) for 30min-1hr... never more. The biggest misconception I think people have of athletes or training in general is that you must train HARD everyday to improve and be the best... but it couldn't be further from the truth. An Olympic level athlete spends 90% of their time at a pace/training intensity below max threshold and MOSTLY at a fairly normal/easy pace. Weight training is normally a HIGH intensity exercise when lifting weights (for balance or functional strength it can be done at a lower level) but that is why it wasn't incorporated into our program 5-7x a week. It's used to boost the overall fitness of the athlete, increasing that threshold/power output/watts, but you will see negative results doing that daily without proper rest intervals between sessions. I suspect motocross alike, has that balance. You have a limited amount of time with the riders to go ride (build the functional strength/technique), build their base cardio program, then use the weights to improve max output and strength. Most of that training if like ours is done in the offseason as we prep to build up for the race season, usually a 2-3 month window. Once race season hits, and you are traveling (for me it was internationally) the time you have to sit/find a gym, continue proper training sessions is greatly reduced. So what do you prioritize as an athlete? What will give the greatest return? Technique and seat time right... just like for me it was skiing and improving technique to the umpteenth degree of perfection. Lifting weights might give me say a 1% increase in performance/times.... working on skiing and technique 10+%.

Another great point brought up is the genetics. It's absolutely a factor in every athlete. I've played ice hockey, soccer, etc. and noticed I do not have the injury list like some of my teammates do. Some had multiple ACL tears, etc. They were taller, didn't lift/workout/exercise to the same degree, but overall had different genetics and skeletal/muscular makeup. That is why you see pro level athletes of all sports, some are more prone to knee injuries or some seem bullet proof and it's part of their scouting report. It can also be technique related right? A football player who continually blows out his knee or shoulder maybe doing something slightly different in his technique to exacerbate that issue, much like a motocross rider might have worse technique inducing a more susceptible injury pattern. Part of that is prior injuries, their genetic makeup and of course their workout/training routine.

In the end, adding weight training is 100% beneficial to these riders for building bone and muscle density... it will help all else being equal when they hit the ground and giving them functional strength for maneuvering the bike. The biggest issue is giving these athletes time to recover/rest and fitting that training in their already insane schedules. There is a balance required, and cost benefit for every single piece of their training program that is factored into that performance. As such, it's going to be limited by those factors. Lastly, all these injuries and crashes are unique, and as such it's kind of hard to say oh this other rider would of walked away ok or not.... the only way to fairly evaluate that is having the same rider do the EXACT same crash.

Just my .2c

Up Wind wrote:

Ok...News Flash! The best racers in SX/MX IMO give huge amounts of money to people that tell them what to do. If they are not paying...

Ok...News Flash! The best racers in SX/MX IMO give huge amounts of money to people that tell them what to do. If they are not paying direct, the team puts the big bucks in for them as part of their compensation package.. This could include up to 200,000k per year, plus win and championship bonuses. I would image the trainers would also control the amount of muscle mass.

Up Wind wrote:

Ok...News Flash! The best racers in SX/MX IMO give huge amounts of money to people that tell them what to do. If they are not paying...

Ok...News Flash! The best racers in SX/MX IMO give huge amounts of money to people that tell them what to do. If they are not paying direct, the team puts the big bucks in for them as part of their compensation package.. This could include up to 200,000k per year, plus win and championship bonuses. I would image the trainers would also control the amount of muscle mass.

Camp332 wrote:

News flash! Your post is lame. Delete it, and go bench Bro.

Up Wind wrote:

Ok...News Flash! The best racers in SX/MX IMO give huge amounts of money to people that tell them what to do. If they are not paying...

Ok...News Flash! The best racers in SX/MX IMO give huge amounts of money to people that tell them what to do. If they are not paying direct, the team puts the big bucks in for them as part of their compensation package.. This could include up to 200,000k per year, plus win and championship bonuses. I would image the trainers would also control the amount of muscle mass.

Camp332 wrote:

News flash! Your post is lame. Delete it, and go bench Bro.

Up Wind wrote:

Yes...Everything in MX and SX should just remain a secret. You obviously don't know much, but opinions are opinions :) I am impressed though...I was benching...

Yes...Everything in MX and SX should just remain a secret. You obviously don't know much, but opinions are opinions I am impressed though...I was benching when you replied

StevenMX wrote:

.... does what I say refute or even argue that conclusion ? I actually support that statement you mention. I simply was offering my life experience...

.... does what I say refute or even argue that conclusion ? I actually support that statement you mention. I simply was offering my life experience to further probe at the initial question being asked. Of course they spend money on training and have a team around them just for that. I did as well... it's not set in stone and as sports evolve so does the training regime/science behind it. I think the OP's original question was just asking whether the current trend for these teams who do spend $200k on training is perfectly optimized or is there something that could be added specifically in regards to the weight training balance. Always a good worthy discussion, that is how we evolve and push forward change in any profession. I'd be willing to bet 5-10-15 years ago the training regime of the top teams has evolved and been tweaked as new methods and data are collected. Rebalancing their training load, eliminating areas that maybe didn't translate into faster track times, etc. Simply to imply that paying money to experts is a set in stone recipe for success for these athletes is short sighted and doesn't further the growth of trying new techniques/methods. All of these athletes would gladly try new methods and do when allowed to further grow and give them that edge, even having the best of doctors/trainers is not the end of the line when pathfinding new ideas.

Brent wrote:

Motocross is not an upper body sport. Rick Johnson told me he has "String bean arms". none of the worlds fastest motocross riders have upper body...

Motocross is not an upper body sport.

Rick Johnson told me he has "String bean arms".

none of the worlds fastest motocross riders have upper body bulk it is not needed when you ride a bike with your legs.

MXJORRIT wrote:

Really interesting topic. I actually just got home from a physiotherapy/medical workshop where we partially talked about how hypertrophy ( building up muscles ) can affect...

Really interesting topic. I actually just got home from a physiotherapy/medical workshop where we partially talked about how hypertrophy ( building up muscles ) can affect the pro athlete. First of all I totally agree with the OP, building up muscle mass is probably next to nutrition and flexibility one of the main factors for preventing injuries, since strength reinforces muscles, tendons, ligaments and most important bones. Studies have shown that especially weight-lifting and high-impact exercises ( like jumping ) affect osteoblasts within the bone, the cells which increase bone density. But you always have to keep in mind that pro mx/sx racer's bodies are required to perform at an extreme high level of cardiovascular intensity for 20-40 minutes. Therefore having too much mass can be counterproductive since muscles require large amounts of oxygen to function properly and the body is just not able to compensate for that. And one thing I personally think should be considered partially is genetics since it also regulates bone mineral density. Take a look at Herlings this guy is probably next to Gajser the fittest mx racer I've seen, but he's prone to get hurt as soon as he crashes and when Gajser crashes going Mach2 he just bounces off the ground like nothing happened.

Mit12 wrote:

Hearlings is proof that more bulk will not keep you from getting hurt.

McG194 wrote:

Really, so that's all the proof you need?

Mit12 wrote:

When I raced I was 5 foot 7 and weighed 175 with 7%body fat. I broke my collar bone 3 times, separated my shoulders more times...

When I raced I was 5 foot 7 and weighed 175 with 7%body fat. I broke my collar bone 3 times, separated my shoulders more times than you would believe, broke my fair share of bones along with lots of ligament damage. Its not about having bulk its about being in great psychical condition. Look at foot ball players they still brake bones. Athletes push the body way beyond what God made the body for.

Mit12 wrote:

Hearlings is proof that more bulk will not keep you from getting hurt.

McG194 wrote:

Really, so that's all the proof you need?

Mit12 wrote:

When I raced I was 5 foot 7 and weighed 175 with 7%body fat. I broke my collar bone 3 times, separated my shoulders more times...

When I raced I was 5 foot 7 and weighed 175 with 7%body fat. I broke my collar bone 3 times, separated my shoulders more times than you would believe, broke my fair share of bones along with lots of ligament damage. Its not about having bulk its about being in great psychical condition. Look at foot ball players they still brake bones. Athletes push the body way beyond what God made the body for.

McG194 wrote:

Really, so that's all the proof you need?

Mit12 wrote:

When I raced I was 5 foot 7 and weighed 175 with 7%body fat. I broke my collar bone 3 times, separated my shoulders more times...

When I raced I was 5 foot 7 and weighed 175 with 7%body fat. I broke my collar bone 3 times, separated my shoulders more times than you would believe, broke my fair share of bones along with lots of ligament damage. Its not about having bulk its about being in great psychical condition. Look at foot ball players they still brake bones. Athletes push the body way beyond what God made the body for.

Camp332 wrote:

Post a picture of yourself when you were racing at these numbers. 175 at 7% and 5'7" tall is a lot of muscle.

McG194 wrote:

I'm not saying the racers of today aren't fit because they are absolute beasts. Here is my hypothesis: I watched AC's video announcing that he was...

I'm not saying the racers of today aren't fit because they are absolute beasts.

Here is my hypothesis: I watched AC's video announcing that he was out for the rest of SX and a thought started gnawing at me. The fact is the dude looks frail. I know he's in better shape than I have ever been in and I'm not dogging him because I like him and want him to win a ton and become the face of the sport. I think the era of building pure cardio beasts has possibly gone past its prime and is now harming these guys.

The undeniable fact is modern 450's are going faster than dirt bikes have ever gone causing exceedingly violent crashes. I don't believe one single guy on a SX line would lose any measurable performance of their 450 by putting on 15 pounds or so.

It is possible to still retain flexibility and cardio but add a substantial amount of muscle. If some of these guys had more musculature they would be far less susceptible to injuries. I'm well aware that you don't need ultimate strength to race a dirt bike but muscles aren't just about strength, they do protect your vital organs and bones. MMA fighters take a beating and yet are still very flexible and have great cardio.

What I'm suggesting goes against just about everything the establishment trainers preach and I'm sure some will call me an idiot (especially with my bait headline haha) but I think it's a worthy discussion.

Crash217 wrote:

I think its been said that Larocco could bench press about 400lbs. And Steward Baylor is killing it this year with weight training and increasing flexibility.