Time for 350s instead of 450s in SX?

Thor34103
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Edited Date/Time 7/15/2019 5:54pm
Bought the July iissue of MXA couple of weeks ago and just read the Ask the MXPerts. First letter is WHY AREN'T THERE MORE 350s. Great question and MXA's response indicates Steve Whitlock and Giuseppe Luongo were behind the 350 idea. I didn't know the backstory on the 350 issue but in hindsight I think was a great idea.

If the AMA/FIM gave the OEMs four to five years to make 350s then we could finally stop talking about how the 450s are too much. Since there is a general consensus that 450s are too much, especially for SX, why not make a rule change to give us more 350s in the future?
Poll

Time to finally scrap 450s for 350s?

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yz133rider
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6/29/2019 10:59am
I honestly think tomac and the other top guys would be even faster on 250s then they are on 450s.
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6/29/2019 11:06am
Indoors? You have a solid argument.
Outdoors? No
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6/29/2019 11:07am
yz133rider wrote:
I honestly think tomac and the other top guys would be even faster on 250s then they are on 450s.
Kranz has said Eli will take as much power as they can give him so I don't think this is true
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yz133rider
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6/29/2019 11:15am
yz133rider wrote:
I honestly think tomac and the other top guys would be even faster on 250s then they are on 450s.
Kranz has said Eli will take as much power as they can give him so I don't think this is true
More power doesnt change the weight, interia, and brute-ish nature of a 450 compared to a 250. I bet youd be surprised.
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The Shop

Motohead279
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6/29/2019 4:12pm
yz133rider wrote:
I honestly think tomac and the other top guys would be even faster on 250s then they are on 450s.
Kranz has said Eli will take as much power as they can give him so I don't think this is true
I’m sure they work more on power delivery than on overall peak numbers.
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Pirate421
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6/29/2019 5:25pm
All that horsepower sure does a number on the tracks. Southwick is usually super rough but I have to imagine a lot of these tracks would hold up a little better if they didn’t have full gates of 450s digging trenches 5 minutes after they soak the tracks in the morning. Ruts and bumps are good but couple them with 60hp and 230-250lb bikes, you’re in for a hell of a ride
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6/29/2019 8:28pm
250f is enough for the premier class period. The consumer has the ultimate power.
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6/29/2019 8:31pm Edited Date/Time 6/29/2019 8:32pm
Weight reduction and affordability (not more power) should be the manufactures main concern in reference to long term vitality.
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racerx317
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7/1/2019 5:48am
yz133rider wrote:
I honestly think tomac and the other top guys would be even faster on 250s then they are on 450s.
Kranz has said Eli will take as much power as they can give him so I don't think this is true
He may take as much as they can make, but then he overheats the bikes by riding the clutch all over the place. There is a thing as too much power for even some of the best in the world, IMO.
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Johnny Depp
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7/1/2019 9:04am
With today's ability to use Lit Pro to measure every aspect of a lap time, if Pro riders found an advantage in a smaller engine they would be using them. Especially on a track like Southwick which is known for requiring wide open throttle more than other tracks resulting in bikes running out of gas in the past.

If we want to start slowing down the Pro's, and have unrestricted weekend warriors going faster around a track, we might as well have them race 125's. Why is everyone so worried about tracks holding up? That is just not important IMO in todays world of track prep and building capabilities where they can re work the track 5 times a day if they wanted to.

Even if restrictions on engines was to go forward, the most logical way would be #1, an exhaust restrictor would be easy to verify and allow them to not run high strung expensive smaller bores turning 13k rpm+. I am not for it though. Soon electrics will make all IC engines obsolete anyway with respect to lap times.
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RCMXracing
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7/1/2019 9:35am
Choices are good. I like choices. 2, 4, electric, nuclear, fuggin’ wind powered. If it’s got a throttle and two wheels let’s ride. They tried to kill the 2 stroke. Let’s not kill 450’s.
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yz133rider
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7/1/2019 10:56am
With today's ability to use Lit Pro to measure every aspect of a lap time, if Pro riders found an advantage in a smaller engine they...
With today's ability to use Lit Pro to measure every aspect of a lap time, if Pro riders found an advantage in a smaller engine they would be using them. Especially on a track like Southwick which is known for requiring wide open throttle more than other tracks resulting in bikes running out of gas in the past.

If we want to start slowing down the Pro's, and have unrestricted weekend warriors going faster around a track, we might as well have them race 125's. Why is everyone so worried about tracks holding up? That is just not important IMO in todays world of track prep and building capabilities where they can re work the track 5 times a day if they wanted to.

Even if restrictions on engines was to go forward, the most logical way would be #1, an exhaust restrictor would be easy to verify and allow them to not run high strung expensive smaller bores turning 13k rpm+. I am not for it though. Soon electrics will make all IC engines obsolete anyway with respect to lap times.
That's ignoring the fact that while i said a 250 would likely be faster not necessarily directly against 450s. Likely would get pulled off the start and be behind from the beginning. Also racing against a 450 with how they corner differently and different lines might not match up well being on a 250.

Im saying i think tomac on a 250f would put in a faster lap then him on a 450.

And if they were all on 250fs theyd all be faster yet.

But racing a 250f against 450s not sure its a good move. Although there is something to be said for how much less fatigue theyd have and how much harder they could push at the end. 450s wear these guys out even at the top.
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Thor34103
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7/3/2019 2:31pm
yz133rider wrote:
That's ignoring the fact that while i said a 250 would likely be faster not necessarily directly against 450s. Likely would get pulled off the start...
That's ignoring the fact that while i said a 250 would likely be faster not necessarily directly against 450s. Likely would get pulled off the start and be behind from the beginning. Also racing against a 450 with how they corner differently and different lines might not match up well being on a 250.

Im saying i think tomac on a 250f would put in a faster lap then him on a 450.

And if they were all on 250fs theyd all be faster yet.

But racing a 250f against 450s not sure its a good move. Although there is something to be said for how much less fatigue theyd have and how much harder they could push at the end. 450s wear these guys out even at the top.
As someone pointed out, the brute inertia of a 450 is much more than a 250F which is the point and not which bike they'd go faster on.

Something needs to change in SX. Either give us 350s or reduce the power on 450s and leave 250 class alone. If 350s or reduced power 450s are not coming, then make the existing 250 class the premier class and make a new support class of 250Fs with only suspension and exhaust modifications. No trick ignitions or throttle body mods or replacement throttle bodies to keep the costs down.
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TSCHAM101
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7/3/2019 3:01pm
yz133rider wrote:
That's ignoring the fact that while i said a 250 would likely be faster not necessarily directly against 450s. Likely would get pulled off the start...
That's ignoring the fact that while i said a 250 would likely be faster not necessarily directly against 450s. Likely would get pulled off the start and be behind from the beginning. Also racing against a 450 with how they corner differently and different lines might not match up well being on a 250.

Im saying i think tomac on a 250f would put in a faster lap then him on a 450.

And if they were all on 250fs theyd all be faster yet.

But racing a 250f against 450s not sure its a good move. Although there is something to be said for how much less fatigue theyd have and how much harder they could push at the end. 450s wear these guys out even at the top.
Thor34103 wrote:
As someone pointed out, the brute inertia of a 450 is much more than a 250F which is the point and not which bike they'd go...
As someone pointed out, the brute inertia of a 450 is much more than a 250F which is the point and not which bike they'd go faster on.

Something needs to change in SX. Either give us 350s or reduce the power on 450s and leave 250 class alone. If 350s or reduced power 450s are not coming, then make the existing 250 class the premier class and make a new support class of 250Fs with only suspension and exhaust modifications. No trick ignitions or throttle body mods or replacement throttle bodies to keep the costs down.
pro premier class 350's..

they dont need 450 power indoors or out(just makes the speed higher and greatly increases the chance of a big injury. The 2 stroke days people crashed without almost dying most of the time.. )


lites class stays the same


Amateurs cant race full race bikes until A Class where the true talent will shine anyways.. those amateur motor builds are about 10K, including a full race motor, tumbled tranny, vortex/get ECU/ Full Clutch system etc... You have to be Semi-wealthy to be able to compete with those guys...

Its not fair for the kids who have to race the Factory Amateurs...
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7/3/2019 3:15pm
#250isenough
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ATKpilot99
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7/3/2019 4:03pm
Keep the 450s
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ShipLap
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7/3/2019 6:17pm
They should also allow 300cc two-strokes. Make dirt bike racing great again!
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Dropbear
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7/3/2019 6:44pm Edited Date/Time 7/3/2019 6:45pm
I lost a lot of interest when the premier class went from 500 to 250 in the 2T era. Of course I’m not talking SX, 500’s only had a few races in the early days of the discipline.
blockhead17
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7/3/2019 7:58pm
I don’t think 450s are a problem, more the 250s
Got lites every guy making the huge triple out of a corner.. I miss the skill needed in the 125 class
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dimetime
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7/3/2019 9:49pm
Here we go again with the MJWs wanting to fix what they percieve as a problem. Leave it fucking alone.

Also, you all are high as fuck if you think there's ANY chance that the Japanese manufacturers are going to develop an entirely new bike for this.

I haven't gone through any statisics but there's been some pretty serious injuries on 250s too. Ferrandis comes immediately to mind. So quit trying to fix what isn't broke for at best dunious reasons and virtually no safety inprovement.
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Crush
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7/3/2019 9:58pm
Since 4 strokes have come in, the 250s always have better racing.

This year's 450 nationals is an anomaly.

In SX, the 250s are more exciting to watch because you can see the effort. We all know it's hard but 450s make it look lazy. Go watch early 2000 SX and see how hard they were working to go fast.

350s would be a baby step.

250effs as the main and 125s as the entry and all amateur would be the right move for the industry on a whole. Even though it'd cost a lot at first.
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aees
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7/4/2019 3:34am
It is not about CC, it is about power. Factory 250 today is not far off from 450 in terms of peak power (hp).

But as long as you have gate starts 450 will always beat 350 and 250cc. No rider will give up CC in the start.

Cairoli went back to 450 because he did not want to give up anything in the start, plus the 450 are now so easy to ride and handle even deep into a moto.

So if you want to let riders ride with less effect, give them closed ECUs with restrictions on torque and peak power.

250, 350, 450 (or cc) is kind of irrelevant.
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Harry_Gray
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7/4/2019 7:53am
The Monday after Doug Henry won the Las Vegas SX on the prototype YZF 400, the AMA should have been Implementing displacement rules on the 4 strokes. With that said...keep the 450's; but seal the motors, limit the gas to 96 octane and keep the modifications to a performance clutch (Hinson for example) assembly, throttle body, ignition, exhaust system, EFI mapping and airbox/filter modifications. That way privateers can afford to maintain the bikes. I can imagine, even with the aforementioned modifications that the 450's would be plenty fast and competitive (for SX and MX). Agree? Disagree??
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endurox
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7/4/2019 8:15am
yz133rider wrote:
That's ignoring the fact that while i said a 250 would likely be faster not necessarily directly against 450s. Likely would get pulled off the start...
That's ignoring the fact that while i said a 250 would likely be faster not necessarily directly against 450s. Likely would get pulled off the start and be behind from the beginning. Also racing against a 450 with how they corner differently and different lines might not match up well being on a 250.

Im saying i think tomac on a 250f would put in a faster lap then him on a 450.

And if they were all on 250fs theyd all be faster yet.

But racing a 250f against 450s not sure its a good move. Although there is something to be said for how much less fatigue theyd have and how much harder they could push at the end. 450s wear these guys out even at the top.
Thor34103 wrote:
As someone pointed out, the brute inertia of a 450 is much more than a 250F which is the point and not which bike they'd go...
As someone pointed out, the brute inertia of a 450 is much more than a 250F which is the point and not which bike they'd go faster on.

Something needs to change in SX. Either give us 350s or reduce the power on 450s and leave 250 class alone. If 350s or reduced power 450s are not coming, then make the existing 250 class the premier class and make a new support class of 250Fs with only suspension and exhaust modifications. No trick ignitions or throttle body mods or replacement throttle bodies to keep the costs down.
How about a box stock 250 2 and 4 stroke same class except for spring changes, grips and bars. Everything else must be stock. Then we will see what the best bike is. Have to run on 91 octane pump gas also. Sure would help the privateers.
omalley
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7/4/2019 8:58am
dimetime wrote:
Here we go again with the MJWs wanting to fix what they percieve as a problem. Leave it fucking alone. Also, you all are high as...
Here we go again with the MJWs wanting to fix what they percieve as a problem. Leave it fucking alone.

Also, you all are high as fuck if you think there's ANY chance that the Japanese manufacturers are going to develop an entirely new bike for this.

I haven't gone through any statisics but there's been some pretty serious injuries on 250s too. Ferrandis comes immediately to mind. So quit trying to fix what isn't broke for at best dunious reasons and virtually no safety inprovement.
Amen.
7/4/2019 9:10am
If they get rid of 450s ,speeds will be the same and the motors will be way more expensive
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bvm111
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7/4/2019 11:04am

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MPJC
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Fantasy
7/4/2019 11:16am
Sounds like a solution looking for a problem.
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77Moto
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7/4/2019 12:48pm
dimetime wrote:
Here we go again with the MJWs wanting to fix what they percieve as a problem. Leave it fucking alone. Also, you all are high as...
Here we go again with the MJWs wanting to fix what they percieve as a problem. Leave it fucking alone.

Also, you all are high as fuck if you think there's ANY chance that the Japanese manufacturers are going to develop an entirely new bike for this.

I haven't gone through any statisics but there's been some pretty serious injuries on 250s too. Ferrandis comes immediately to mind. So quit trying to fix what isn't broke for at best dunious reasons and virtually no safety inprovement.
They don't have to do a thing except make a cylinder, head withj parts, piston, and ring and some gaskets to sleeve down a 450.

That said,

The 250 class should be a stock OEM NON PREMIER class. With 2 and 4 strokes. Not a works bike class with Single cylinder F1 engines with rev limiters set at 19,000 that have a lifespan of 30 mins+1.875 and a hope and prayer it makes it.

I mean, F1 engines have to last 2 full races now. That's better reliablity than MX and SX 250F engines.
And it's cheaper and why F1 made that rule. Cost.

In the 250 class, You can be sponsored by whoever, but you aren't running their stuff, except grips, handlebars and tires and tubes.
Just about like Ponca and LL's stock classes. Joe Blow local pro on a 250 can have the same bike as the factory paid dude. Now it is skill, setup etc. Can't blame the bike.

If McElrath or whoever can't beat Joe Blow, Oh well.


Get techs that know what the hell they are actually looking at also.

The 450 class should be 2 and 4 stroke any displacement as well, aftermarket readily available affordable parts only premier class.
No A kit super expensive shit most non factory dudes can't afford.

Lets be honest here, 99.9% of non pro practice riders and Enthusiasts that never even race can build a better bike with better stuff than a 10th place privateer because they have a decent job AND they can't use or even need that stuff except to say they did.

If the suspension companies want to sell A kit stuff, sell it to me. But it's not going to be on the racetrack. You can run the stickers.

Nothing racing in Nascar, Indy Car or F1 is being sold to the public, and that doesn't stop car sales, shock sales, air filters, tires or anything else. Thats what stickers do. Advertise. You can buy Pirellis, but not buying Pirelli F1 slicks at Tire Rack.

99% of the people driving a Mercedes have no idea who Lewis Hamiton is. So saying that racing sells stuff to people is bullshit.

Look at other motorsports where the Spec classes are filled with participants. And the engines are sealed.











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fullysicmate
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7/4/2019 1:23pm
Looks like we have solved the problem guys. Bring on the 350's bye bye 450's Cool
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