A few things about Cooper's wild ride and officiating...

Silas444
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3/19/2019 3:49pm
Silas444 wrote:
This thread has become a textbook example of the futility of trying to force a serving of common sense on someone who'd rather eat poop, so...
This thread has become a textbook example of the futility of trying to force a serving of common sense on someone who'd rather eat poop, so I won't add to the silliness - BUT - here's something of interest: last week Eli Tomac won Daytona while wearing a helmet with Dale Earnhardt's face painted on it. Dale Earnhardt, a man whose most famous victory came when he went off-course, into the grass, and then back on-track without surrendering a position. You get that? Earnhardt won because they didn't penalize him for going off-track. I don't know how that tastes to you, but I find that little morsel of irony truly delicious.
ctbale wrote:
not comparable situations. Its an EZ call, coop gained an advantage after leaving the track. you cant factor in intent to apply the rule, cuz intent...
not comparable situations.

Its an EZ call, coop gained an advantage after leaving the track. you cant factor in intent to apply the rule, cuz intent is not addressed in the rule.

ok, were done now, I have spoken.

who am I kidding, 12 pager EZ
"You can't factor in intent" - Oh good Lord, I know better. I KNOW BETTER. You've got a mouth full of poop and you're pretending so intently you're actually smiling at how good it tastes, but just on the minuscule, microscopic chance you'll actually listen to common sense, let me just say this. Of course intent matters, that's why there are black flags.

Submitted for your consideration:

Scenario one: You are racing a rider you've publicly stated you despise, he's stalls in a corner, you point your bike at him, twist the throttle to the stops and you T-bone him.

Scenario Two: there's a rider everyone knows is your best friend, he's stalled in a corner, your throttle sticks wide open and you T-bone him.

Intent matters. I mean - duh.
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3/19/2019 3:58pm Edited Date/Time 3/19/2019 4:01pm
joeellis wrote:
I refuse to read all the replies because I get so tired of all the whining on here. The negativity on this site has caused me...
I refuse to read all the replies because I get so tired of all the whining on here. The negativity on this site has caused me to visit much less frequently. With that said: for the people complaining, do you want the rule book to try and capture every possible scenario that may occur during a race? Then it would possibly look like the golf rule book i.e., if this occurs, refer to rule 16:2c etc. I’m fine with the way the judgement was determined. Cooper crossrutted and did one hell of a job to not take both riders out. What do you complainers feel they should have done? Move Cooper behind Tomac in the final standings? Wonder what Eli felt about the situation. He was probably way less upset than many on here.
This is exactly how I feel. I also happen to think that when deciding what should be done about any given circumstance, intent should be a consideration. Webb clearly did not intend what happened. But the vitards won’t agree; they’ll just move on in a few days with something else to complain about.
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GuyB
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3/19/2019 4:00pm Edited Date/Time 3/19/2019 4:00pm
GuyB wrote:
I figured a few of you might be interested in what actually happened there. I guess I was wrong.
brlatm wrote:
We figured you would have been a journalist and not John Gallaghers buddy, I guess we were wrong?
Did you know whether this had been reviewed before I posted what I posted? Did you know that they had four video views of this that they could look at frame-by-frame? Did you know about the race direction method of deciding issues like this? Or that there's an FIM official there in case of an appeal?

You may not like the outcome, but I think you got more journalism out of this than you're willing to admit.
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ruy
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3/19/2019 4:14pm

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The Shop

GuyB
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3/19/2019 4:17pm
Probably in the neighborhood of a dozen people here are looking at still frames that don't show how the bike reacted when he hit the jump to reach their conclusion. I'm also pretty sure the officials didn't use Autocad to make their decision. But I'm okay with that.

I also would suggest that someone from Kawi requested that it be reviewed, but didn't take it to the level of a protest. Does that make a difference to you?
ruy
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3/19/2019 4:23pm
Perhaps with the rules it is not punishable, but it is not right, that you make an error and 1st; Do not cost anything, 2nd Or you get benefited.
Something is wrong, mistakes are paid, or they should be paid.
But, things are like this.

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731chopper
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3/19/2019 4:25pm
He gained track position by cutting the corner that enabled him to make the pass. The “officials” clearly view it as not mattering because there was a lack of intent. I don’t believe the rules mention intent as mattering. That’s the inconsistency that infuriates people. I won’t pretend that officiating in other sports is even close to perfect but I wish it was better.
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oldblood
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3/19/2019 4:26pm
If I were King for a day.
I don't think under the current rules Cooper should be penalized.
But I think in Supercross there should be a clear edge of the track marked out with chalk and or other means and if a rider goes out of bounds they should be docked one position or more, (unless it was to avoid a downed Rider or a rider crashing).
As it stands right now there isn't much to keep a rider from just going off the edge of the track and in most cases lately it seems like they gain a slight advantage if anything, and that needs to change.
DA498
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3/19/2019 4:26pm
Id wonder if Webb even thought he left the boundaries to even think of relinquishing a position in that millisecond of time. We're splitting hairs on this incident. "Its just a motorcycle race"
oldblood
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3/19/2019 4:28pm
oldblood wrote:
If I were King for a day. I don't think under the current rules Cooper should be penalized. But I think in Supercross there should be...
If I were King for a day.
I don't think under the current rules Cooper should be penalized.
But I think in Supercross there should be a clear edge of the track marked out with chalk and or other means and if a rider goes out of bounds they should be docked one position or more, (unless it was to avoid a downed Rider or a rider crashing).
As it stands right now there isn't much to keep a rider from just going off the edge of the track and in most cases lately it seems like they gain a slight advantage if anything, and that needs to change.
Outdoors is a completely different deal and nothing needs to change there.
psg119
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3/19/2019 4:38pm
I actually posted a post earlier stating that I thought Cooper probably did everything right he could. And he pretty much did stop considering what he went through. I also raced moto, so yes I know it's hard to make corners after bigger jumps. Have you ever tried stopping on a dime after a 180mph straight away to make a hairpin while trying not to let someone pass you? Also not easy. And you could say that Webb could have dove inside had he not cross-rutted but again that's not what happened. Dirty nor I were saying they are the same thing. You're missing the point. We are saying no matter who it is, no matter what kind of racing, no matter accident or purposely, if you go off course and come back on putting yourself in a passing position you need to let the passed rider back by. Obviously this one was too close to call for the officials and probably for Cooper as the rider... But that is all dirty was trying to get across to you. I also said that I thought Cooper would have probably gotten by Eli either way had he let him back by in my earlier post. I was just trying to get you to understand Dirty and not discount what road racers do.
3/19/2019 4:41pm
So what about the intended retaliation of Tomac trying to kick Webb?????


JK!!!!!! haha





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dimetime
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3/19/2019 4:45pm
dimetime wrote:
I sincerely think the absolute worst part of this is the shameful intellectual dishonsety. This is purely and ET vs Webb thing. I know for a...
I sincerely think the absolute worst part of this is the shameful intellectual dishonsety.

This is purely and ET vs Webb thing. I know for a fact that if this situation was reversed there'd be not one peep about it from all the Eli nut garglers.

All your morsl preening and high horse bullshit is just that.........bullshit.

God damn l hate this kind if crap.
scrallex wrote:
I can guarantee you that if the roles were reversed, Eli would have yielded the position back to Webb in the whoop section. Part of the...
I can guarantee you that if the roles were reversed, Eli would have yielded the position back to Webb in the whoop section. Part of the reason a lot of us like him: he is a respectful and honest racer. Same reason why he "toyed" with Dungey in '17 rather than doing to him what Musquin did to ET in New England last year.

Speaking of, after all that has transpired in the last two years since that incident in Las Vegas, I wonder how many times Eli has thought to himself "Man, I should have just clobbered Dungey and taken that fat check to the bank"
So now you can "guarantee" what Eli would have done? Did he call you and tell you or are you just making shit up? I'm going with the latter rather than the former. You're just making shit up.

So now we need new protest bracelet with WWED? Fuck what Jesus would do, everyone genuflect in front the perfect human, Eli Tomac. He's all we need to determine right or wrong.

And for the record l think you're full of shit, Eli would have done the exact same thing as Cooper.

Rode on as fast as he could and never look back.
psg119
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3/19/2019 4:50pm
How is that not true??? That is what happened? He cross rutted throwing him wayyy further to the inside than he was hoping for and it just worked out for him. You're definitely right in saying if he landed clean on the inside line and made the block pass nothing would have been controversial. But that is not what happened. You're speaking of what ifs. That is the flaw in your point. I'm talking about what actually happened. They are very different. But you're still racing a course to beat other racers with a rule book in place. That's the point.
731chopper
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3/19/2019 4:53pm Edited Date/Time 3/19/2019 4:54pm
He gained track position. He entered the turn at a place and angle only possible because he went off the track. That caused Eli to change his line and speed which is what gave Cooper the pass.

I’ve heard many people justify that Eli faded once passed so it doesn’t matter and I’m not going to argue much because I understand that feeling and don’t really care but those things shouldn’t matter in officiating. In a NBA blowout if the team up 40 points steps on the line while shooting the ball, they don’t just count the basket because the team was going to win anyways.
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Madmax31
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3/19/2019 4:58pm
You're trying to reason w retards.
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731chopper
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3/19/2019 4:59pm
Track position is your position on the racetrack, not in the standings of the race. He did not gain a position in the race, he gained track position by cutting the inside corner of a turn.
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731chopper
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3/19/2019 5:01pm
Madmax31 wrote:
You're trying to reason w retards.
Right back at you.
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psg119
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3/19/2019 5:02pm
I said exactly what happened. Tell me how that isn't true. I just said he maybe could have but that doesn't matter. He did pass him after the apex. But what choice did he have when landing in/after the apex? If Tomac didn't back off he would have gotten punted. Which is where the controversy lies. Do you know they didn't protest or at least talk to them about it?
psg119
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3/19/2019 5:03pm
Madmax31 wrote:
You're trying to reason w retards.
731chopper wrote:
Right back at you.
X2
3/19/2019 5:04pm
Pakoyz250f wrote:
So what about the intended retaliation of Tomac trying to kick Webb????? JK!!!!!! haha [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/03/19/332962/s1200_s780_7.jpg[/img]
So what about the intended retaliation of Tomac trying to kick Webb?????


JK!!!!!! haha





Gonna be some ninjy whompin action!
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yz133rider
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3/19/2019 5:06pm
For the millionth time. Intent is not written into the rules at all.
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psg119
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3/19/2019 5:08pm
Really dude?! Have you been reading anything that I have been writing?!

Eli moved out of his rut for Cooper whether Cooper was there by accident or not. go look at all the photos and videos people posted.
GuyB
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3/19/2019 5:12pm
And I’m pretty sure that if your favorite rider was in Cooper Webb’s place, it might not be so black and white.

I’ve noticed MX fans have an oversized sense of “justice” on stuff like this. Personally, I feel like the teams are a little more pragmatic, and realize that there are circumstances (this would be a perfect example) where it’s not so cut and dried. Or, that it could be their guy in that position next time.

I also feel like it’s a giant finger poke in the eye for people who for years claimed in here that Monster had some oversized influence in the official’s decision-making process.

Personally, I’m mostly happy that Cooper was able to gather things up before he and Eli ended up stuck in the net on the outside of that turn.
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3/19/2019 5:18pm
Lets keep it simple: did he gain an advantage from his off track excursion? Yes, penalty it is then.

Intent, previous laps, what ‘would’ have happened and what he had for lunch shouldn’t matter.

That being said it’s the inconsistent interpretation of the rules you would expect.
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3/19/2019 5:21pm Edited Date/Time 3/19/2019 5:21pm
GuyB wrote:
And I’m pretty sure that if your favorite rider was in Cooper Webb’s place, it might not be so black and white. I’ve noticed MX fans...
And I’m pretty sure that if your favorite rider was in Cooper Webb’s place, it might not be so black and white.

I’ve noticed MX fans have an oversized sense of “justice” on stuff like this. Personally, I feel like the teams are a little more pragmatic, and realize that there are circumstances (this would be a perfect example) where it’s not so cut and dried. Or, that it could be their guy in that position next time.

I also feel like it’s a giant finger poke in the eye for people who for years claimed in here that Monster had some oversized influence in the official’s decision-making process.

Personally, I’m mostly happy that Cooper was able to gather things up before he and Eli ended up stuck in the net on the outside of that turn.
This brings it back around to the point of whether a penalty should or shouldn’t be enforced depending on whether it was accidental or not. It’s not cut and dried sometimes, and not every single situation will be found in the rule book, so some calls will be up to the officials’ discretion, sure.

That said, Webb cut the track and gained a position by doing so. This sets a precedent that rules can be overlooked if a circumstance like this was accidental. It’s not like I want Webb to be DNF’d or anything, but simply docking him a position wouldn’t be the craziest thing to happen in this sport.
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wfo4ever
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3/19/2019 5:24pm
For all the Vitards out there do not forget there are other forums about our sport other than this one that is ruled by King Vitard. But I can't remember that Guys name...
psg119
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3/19/2019 5:30pm
I haven’t assumed one thing. Go look at the lines again. The high line cuts down.
jemcee
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3/19/2019 5:32pm
TeamGreen wrote:
A guy cross-ruts in a Rythm Section...at speed...manages to save it...

And all some keyboard warriors can do is bitch about it.

Classic
Yep it was an amazing save and if I was just in front of him on the outside of the following turn I'd have been absolutely convinced I was about to get smashed over the berm by the guy that was bouncing off the limiter and plowing through tough blocks because he cross rutted in ryhthm section...at speed

3/19/2019 5:35pm
psg119 wrote:
I haven’t assumed one thing. Go look at the lines again. The high line cuts down.
He wasn’t going to cut down though he was coming out of the rut anyway so it doesn’t matter

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