Bowers on last nights DQ

BR8ES
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BR8ES 2/18/2019 11:47am
2/18/2019 11:47am
Sachmo831 wrote:
The point is he made no attempt to turn. The ama can't stand by and watch blatant takouts. Most riders will atleast turn the bars and...
The point is he made no attempt to turn. The ama can't stand by and watch blatant takouts. Most riders will atleast turn the bars and give the illusion of it being "aggressive racing"
danman wrote:
This is why the DQ was merited. Bowers NEVER ATTEMPTED TO STOP or MAKE THE CORNER! He straight up T-Boned him and that was his intention...
This is why the DQ was merited.
Bowers NEVER ATTEMPTED TO STOP or MAKE THE CORNER! He straight up T-Boned him and that was his intention. Bowers head never stopped looking at the side of Barcia's bike. If he was really trying to make the corner, his head would have been looking where he wanted to go. End of Story.

DQ was EARNED.
drt410 wrote:
Again.... Bowers AGREES that it was earned. People STILL arent reading what he said. He said the consistency is the problem. He agrees that it was...
Again....

Bowers AGREES that it was earned.
People STILL arent reading what he said.
He said the consistency is the problem. He agrees that it was earned, but that other riders ALSO EARNED IT but are not DQ’d. THATS HIS POINT... That Hampshire retaliated against AC... nothing, Bam Bam broke Bowers leg... nothing, Marv demolished Tomac... nothing. Am I going to have to type this again? Someone please at least read what I just wrote if your not going to read what Bowers wrote before you post....
should be pretty easy to punish the obvious, blatant moves where your bike is used as a weapon, but it is not for the powers to be. Can you imagine if one of the big names was DQ'd for this? Big names always get the speial treatment, sadly. Bowers is correct on the consistency aspects, I will give him that. Big difference bewtween a good blockpass, going for it versus a T-bone punting.
BR8ES
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BR8ES 2/18/2019 11:49am
2/18/2019 11:49am
BobKerr wrote:
bents wrote:
Thanks Bob! Everyone celebrates this move, and I'm cool with it, so.....but prime example of inconsistency of penalties handed out over the years.
it was a shit move by KW, plain and simple. I like KW too.
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drt410 2/18/2019 11:54am
2/18/2019 11:54am Edited Date/Time 2/18/2019 12:00pm
danman wrote:
This is why the DQ was merited. Bowers NEVER ATTEMPTED TO STOP or MAKE THE CORNER! He straight up T-Boned him and that was his intention...
This is why the DQ was merited.
Bowers NEVER ATTEMPTED TO STOP or MAKE THE CORNER! He straight up T-Boned him and that was his intention. Bowers head never stopped looking at the side of Barcia's bike. If he was really trying to make the corner, his head would have been looking where he wanted to go. End of Story.

DQ was EARNED.
drt410 wrote:
Again.... Bowers AGREES that it was earned. People STILL arent reading what he said. He said the consistency is the problem. He agrees that it was...
Again....

Bowers AGREES that it was earned.
People STILL arent reading what he said.
He said the consistency is the problem. He agrees that it was earned, but that other riders ALSO EARNED IT but are not DQ’d. THATS HIS POINT... That Hampshire retaliated against AC... nothing, Bam Bam broke Bowers leg... nothing, Marv demolished Tomac... nothing. Am I going to have to type this again? Someone please at least read what I just wrote if your not going to read what Bowers wrote before you post....
BR8ES wrote:
should be pretty easy to punish the obvious, blatant moves where your bike is used as a weapon, but it is not for the powers to...
should be pretty easy to punish the obvious, blatant moves where your bike is used as a weapon, but it is not for the powers to be. Can you imagine if one of the big names was DQ'd for this? Big names always get the speial treatment, sadly. Bowers is correct on the consistency aspects, I will give him that. Big difference bewtween a good blockpass, going for it versus a T-bone punting.
Exactly. Marvs pass on Tomac was just as bad. Barcias slam into Bowers was the worst of them all it jacked up his bike n shattered his leg. Looks can be deceiving. Barcias pass didnt “look” as bad as it was, but it was the worst one, it was season ending. The looks were all there though for Marvin-Tomac, and also for Osborne who was 100% doing it on purpose and to win. Im glad he did though its one of the most epic moments ever in our sport, but if your not going to DQ Marv, dont DQ Bowers. Or if you are going to DQ Bowers, then DQ Marv too. Whichever path they choose, stay on that path. Consistency across all names, not just big names is what makes it fair for those involved.
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scrubbin627 2/18/2019 12:02pm
2/18/2019 12:02pm
I agree with Bowers. Consistency definitely should be practiced if they are going to DQ riders for take outs.
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agn5009
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agn5009 2/18/2019 12:09pm
2/18/2019 12:09pm
Harry Backmon wrote:
I read his whole statement. I think it was fair, and I found it surprisingly well-written. As I've stated before, I'm a fan of all the...
I read his whole statement. I think it was fair, and I found it surprisingly well-written. As I've stated before, I'm a fan of all the riders staying healthy.
Bowers is a very smart guy. I believe he has an engineering degree.
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Harry Backmon 2/18/2019 12:43pm
2/18/2019 12:43pm
Harry Backmon wrote:
I read his whole statement. I think it was fair, and I found it surprisingly well-written. As I've stated before, I'm a fan of all the...
I read his whole statement. I think it was fair, and I found it surprisingly well-written. As I've stated before, I'm a fan of all the riders staying healthy.
agn5009 wrote:
Bowers is a very smart guy. I believe he has an engineering degree.
Nice.

Also, I don't think Bowers should have torpedoed Barcia, but he is correct about the disparity in penalties between the triple digits and the big names.
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Mr. Knobby 2/18/2019 12:52pm
2/18/2019 12:52pm
If it was not Bowers and it was a top guy but exactly the same collision, the top guy DOES NOT get DQ'd. For Sure. That tells you there is a problem. Bowers is a bit of a meat head on the track, but so is Barcia - and has been all his career. Just because he's decided to try and get serious these last couple of seasons, doesn't erase the past. Osbourne used to pass everyone this way in his 250 days.

I personally dislike both of them (Bowers and Barcia), so I couldn't care less, but the point about consistency in how penalties are handed out is spot on. It's a complete joke. A lottery.
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drt410
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drt410 2/18/2019 12:55pm
2/18/2019 12:55pm Edited Date/Time 2/18/2019 1:05pm
BikeGuy321 wrote:
Hard to argue with the AMA being inconsistent in this case, because it's NOT like other incidents. How often does the guy making the pass end...
Hard to argue with the AMA being inconsistent in this case, because it's NOT like other incidents. How often does the guy making the pass end up on the ground?
Marv slaying Tomac.. no punishment. AC 3 weeks ago retaliation by Hampshire, no punishment. Kenny DEMOLISHING Webb as retaliation for the block pass the turn before (+ Baby mama drama lol), no punishment. Zacho str8 MURKED Savatgy on purpose.. planned, setup, and executed, to win the championship. It was an EPIC moment in sx history, but only a fine. If Bowers had taken out Eli like that hed be banned 4 life, yet Marv did... His whole point is if its ok for some to do it then let everyone do it.

Anderson I agree wasnt bad taking Kenny out, but he went down... Alex Martin last week took out Davalos.. not that bad but he went down too. AMart got taken out this week, went down. People go down a lot from block passes. These ones werent bad, but the really bad ones by big name guys dont get punished.
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GrapeApe 2/18/2019 1:01pm
2/18/2019 1:01pm
Mr. Knobby wrote:
If it was not Bowers and it was a top guy but exactly the same collision, the top guy DOES NOT get DQ'd. For Sure. That...
If it was not Bowers and it was a top guy but exactly the same collision, the top guy DOES NOT get DQ'd. For Sure. That tells you there is a problem. Bowers is a bit of a meat head on the track, but so is Barcia - and has been all his career. Just because he's decided to try and get serious these last couple of seasons, doesn't erase the past. Osbourne used to pass everyone this way in his 250 days.

I personally dislike both of them (Bowers and Barcia), so I couldn't care less, but the point about consistency in how penalties are handed out is spot on. It's a complete joke. A lottery.
How do you explain Reed being DQ'q? He was a pretty big name at the time. The common denominator - Reed and Bowers were both carrying out some retaliatory vendetta on the track that the officials can't allow to get out of hand. Oldenberg/Martin, Marvin/Tomac, Alessi/Tickle, etc., those were just arguably way over-aggressive moves with the intention of improving track position.
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DonM 2/18/2019 1:28pm
2/18/2019 1:28pm
Mr. Knobby wrote:
If it was not Bowers and it was a top guy but exactly the same collision, the top guy DOES NOT get DQ'd. For Sure. That...
If it was not Bowers and it was a top guy but exactly the same collision, the top guy DOES NOT get DQ'd. For Sure. That tells you there is a problem. Bowers is a bit of a meat head on the track, but so is Barcia - and has been all his career. Just because he's decided to try and get serious these last couple of seasons, doesn't erase the past. Osbourne used to pass everyone this way in his 250 days.

I personally dislike both of them (Bowers and Barcia), so I couldn't care less, but the point about consistency in how penalties are handed out is spot on. It's a complete joke. A lottery.
GrapeApe wrote:
How do you explain Reed being DQ'q? He was a pretty big name at the time. The common denominator - Reed and Bowers were both carrying...
How do you explain Reed being DQ'q? He was a pretty big name at the time. The common denominator - Reed and Bowers were both carrying out some retaliatory vendetta on the track that the officials can't allow to get out of hand. Oldenberg/Martin, Marvin/Tomac, Alessi/Tickle, etc., those were just arguably way over-aggressive moves with the intention of improving track position.
Common denominator is Gallagher...He can't separate his emotions from his position as an official....shit I just realized I married her....Blink
motomike137
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motomike137 2/18/2019 2:01pm
2/18/2019 2:01pm
BR8ES wrote:
should be pretty easy to punish the obvious, blatant moves where your bike is used as a weapon, but it is not for the powers to...
should be pretty easy to punish the obvious, blatant moves where your bike is used as a weapon, but it is not for the powers to be. Can you imagine if one of the big names was DQ'd for this? Big names always get the speial treatment, sadly. Bowers is correct on the consistency aspects, I will give him that. Big difference bewtween a good blockpass, going for it versus a T-bone punting.
I can't imagine one of the "big names" lining up someones leg with their front tire like Bowers did and that includes Bam Bam. Blatant attempt to injure Barcia is what I saw.
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BR8ES
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BR8ES 2/18/2019 2:05pm
2/18/2019 2:05pm
BR8ES wrote:
should be pretty easy to punish the obvious, blatant moves where your bike is used as a weapon, but it is not for the powers to...
should be pretty easy to punish the obvious, blatant moves where your bike is used as a weapon, but it is not for the powers to be. Can you imagine if one of the big names was DQ'd for this? Big names always get the speial treatment, sadly. Bowers is correct on the consistency aspects, I will give him that. Big difference bewtween a good blockpass, going for it versus a T-bone punting.
motomike137 wrote:
I can't imagine one of the "big names" lining up someones leg with their front tire like Bowers did and that includes Bam Bam. Blatant attempt...
I can't imagine one of the "big names" lining up someones leg with their front tire like Bowers did and that includes Bam Bam. Blatant attempt to injure Barcia is what I saw.
There has been some pretty blatant take outs and injuries by riders quite high on the food chain.
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B Gotti
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B Gotti 2/18/2019 2:08pm
2/18/2019 2:08pm
I'm going to find Barcia this weekend & step on his big toe then kick him in the shin. Lets see how he likes that.
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vetmxr
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vetmxr 2/18/2019 2:13pm
2/18/2019 2:13pm
You guys talk like Barcia is an angel. I would think if Barcia slammed me as hard as he has done to guys in the past I'm not only never forgetting about it.....but could guarantee that someday soon I'd hit him twice as hard. That goes with anyone including myself. I've hit guys before and I usually cringe under my helmet knowing that is probably not the last I'm gonna see of that guy...... And I have no problem with Barcia personally.

What goes around, comes around. That's what keeps Society Civil....Laughing
45ACP
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45ACP 2/18/2019 2:16pm
2/18/2019 2:16pm
Mr. Knobby wrote:
If it was not Bowers and it was a top guy but exactly the same collision, the top guy DOES NOT get DQ'd. For Sure. That...
If it was not Bowers and it was a top guy but exactly the same collision, the top guy DOES NOT get DQ'd. For Sure. That tells you there is a problem. Bowers is a bit of a meat head on the track, but so is Barcia - and has been all his career. Just because he's decided to try and get serious these last couple of seasons, doesn't erase the past. Osbourne used to pass everyone this way in his 250 days.

I personally dislike both of them (Bowers and Barcia), so I couldn't care less, but the point about consistency in how penalties are handed out is spot on. It's a complete joke. A lottery.
GrapeApe wrote:
How do you explain Reed being DQ'q? He was a pretty big name at the time. The common denominator - Reed and Bowers were both carrying...
How do you explain Reed being DQ'q? He was a pretty big name at the time. The common denominator - Reed and Bowers were both carrying out some retaliatory vendetta on the track that the officials can't allow to get out of hand. Oldenberg/Martin, Marvin/Tomac, Alessi/Tickle, etc., those were just arguably way over-aggressive moves with the intention of improving track position.
Alessi was trying to improve track position on Tickle? That's laughable.
BR8ES
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BR8ES 2/18/2019 2:40pm
2/18/2019 2:40pm Edited Date/Time 2/18/2019 2:41pm
anywhere from behind the front wheel/fork is obvious intent to take a rider out with malice, no matter who the offender is. Pretty simple to enforce if the ref has the power to do so or plainly written so all can understand. Yes/No?
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captmoto
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captmoto 2/18/2019 2:47pm
2/18/2019 2:47pm
drt410 wrote:
Exactly. Marvs pass on Tomac was just as bad. Barcias slam into Bowers was the worst of them all it jacked up his bike n shattered...
Exactly. Marvs pass on Tomac was just as bad. Barcias slam into Bowers was the worst of them all it jacked up his bike n shattered his leg. Looks can be deceiving. Barcias pass didnt “look” as bad as it was, but it was the worst one, it was season ending. The looks were all there though for Marvin-Tomac, and also for Osborne who was 100% doing it on purpose and to win. Im glad he did though its one of the most epic moments ever in our sport, but if your not going to DQ Marv, dont DQ Bowers. Or if you are going to DQ Bowers, then DQ Marv too. Whichever path they choose, stay on that path. Consistency across all names, not just big names is what makes it fair for those involved.
But those moves were all passes. Maybe stupid and over aggressive but still passes. Bowers pretty much admitted in his statements that it was payback. That was a pure torpedo move. Does he think that move will change Gallaghers mind or get him to see things like Bowers sees it? I really doubt it now.
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Goon126
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Goon126 2/18/2019 2:51pm
2/18/2019 2:51pm
chump6784 wrote:
To me it's kind of like when you go to court for drink driving. If it's your first time there you might get the minimum penalty...
To me it's kind of like when you go to court for drink driving. If it's your first time there you might get the minimum penalty the judge can give, if you've been there a number of times the judge is going to throw the book at you. Bowers has been there a few times and got the book thrown at him
What about all the times Barcia has taken out people?????

Just curious to those that have been on Vital for over 7 years. Were people defending Barcia back in 2012 for roosting Asterisk medical personnel as much as they are right now?

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Richard Tease II 2/18/2019 2:59pm
2/18/2019 2:59pm
He was DQ'd for taking himself down in a blatant takeout.
Rule 1 of takeouts is dont take yourself out
Rule 2 if you fail at rule 1 refer rule 3
Rule 3 your an idiot -DQ
drt410
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drt410 2/18/2019 3:01pm
2/18/2019 3:01pm
Mr. Knobby wrote:
If it was not Bowers and it was a top guy but exactly the same collision, the top guy DOES NOT get DQ'd. For Sure. That...
If it was not Bowers and it was a top guy but exactly the same collision, the top guy DOES NOT get DQ'd. For Sure. That tells you there is a problem. Bowers is a bit of a meat head on the track, but so is Barcia - and has been all his career. Just because he's decided to try and get serious these last couple of seasons, doesn't erase the past. Osbourne used to pass everyone this way in his 250 days.

I personally dislike both of them (Bowers and Barcia), so I couldn't care less, but the point about consistency in how penalties are handed out is spot on. It's a complete joke. A lottery.
GrapeApe wrote:
How do you explain Reed being DQ'q? He was a pretty big name at the time. The common denominator - Reed and Bowers were both carrying...
How do you explain Reed being DQ'q? He was a pretty big name at the time. The common denominator - Reed and Bowers were both carrying out some retaliatory vendetta on the track that the officials can't allow to get out of hand. Oldenberg/Martin, Marvin/Tomac, Alessi/Tickle, etc., those were just arguably way over-aggressive moves with the intention of improving track position.
Kenny was retaliation with Webb from the block pass before (and baby mama drama lol). Hampshires move on AC was retaliation too, just a couple weeks ago...
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GrapeApe
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GrapeApe 2/18/2019 3:04pm
2/18/2019 3:04pm
Mr. Knobby wrote:
If it was not Bowers and it was a top guy but exactly the same collision, the top guy DOES NOT get DQ'd. For Sure. That...
If it was not Bowers and it was a top guy but exactly the same collision, the top guy DOES NOT get DQ'd. For Sure. That tells you there is a problem. Bowers is a bit of a meat head on the track, but so is Barcia - and has been all his career. Just because he's decided to try and get serious these last couple of seasons, doesn't erase the past. Osbourne used to pass everyone this way in his 250 days.

I personally dislike both of them (Bowers and Barcia), so I couldn't care less, but the point about consistency in how penalties are handed out is spot on. It's a complete joke. A lottery.
GrapeApe wrote:
How do you explain Reed being DQ'q? He was a pretty big name at the time. The common denominator - Reed and Bowers were both carrying...
How do you explain Reed being DQ'q? He was a pretty big name at the time. The common denominator - Reed and Bowers were both carrying out some retaliatory vendetta on the track that the officials can't allow to get out of hand. Oldenberg/Martin, Marvin/Tomac, Alessi/Tickle, etc., those were just arguably way over-aggressive moves with the intention of improving track position.
drt410 wrote:
Kenny was retaliation with Webb from the block pass before (and baby mama drama lol). Hampshires move on AC was retaliation too, just a couple weeks...
Kenny was retaliation with Webb from the block pass before (and baby mama drama lol). Hampshires move on AC was retaliation too, just a couple weeks ago...
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TeamGreen 2/18/2019 3:06pm
2/18/2019 3:06pm
BR8ES wrote:
Rocket Rex was a hardass back in the old days, not even fair to have his name mentioned along side Bowers.
Rex wouldn’t have hesitated to put Barcia on the ground.
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drt410
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drt410 2/18/2019 3:07pm
2/18/2019 3:07pm
GrapeApe wrote:
How do you explain Reed being DQ'q? He was a pretty big name at the time. The common denominator - Reed and Bowers were both carrying...
How do you explain Reed being DQ'q? He was a pretty big name at the time. The common denominator - Reed and Bowers were both carrying out some retaliatory vendetta on the track that the officials can't allow to get out of hand. Oldenberg/Martin, Marvin/Tomac, Alessi/Tickle, etc., those were just arguably way over-aggressive moves with the intention of improving track position.
drt410 wrote:
Kenny was retaliation with Webb from the block pass before (and baby mama drama lol). Hampshires move on AC was retaliation too, just a couple weeks...
Kenny was retaliation with Webb from the block pass before (and baby mama drama lol). Hampshires move on AC was retaliation too, just a couple weeks ago...
GrapeApe wrote:
39
4010?
GrapeApe
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GrapeApe 2/18/2019 3:12pm
2/18/2019 3:12pm
drt410 wrote:
Kenny was retaliation with Webb from the block pass before (and baby mama drama lol). Hampshires move on AC was retaliation too, just a couple weeks...
Kenny was retaliation with Webb from the block pass before (and baby mama drama lol). Hampshires move on AC was retaliation too, just a couple weeks ago...
GrapeApe wrote:
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drt410 wrote:
4010?
I'm counting the number of times you have posted, today. We are now at 40. I think you can hit 50 before dinner.

I didn't mention Roczen/Webb, you did. What did you want them to do, DQ Roczen? Lol. I think he DQ'd himself for the next several months.
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TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 2/18/2019 3:17pm
2/18/2019 3:17pm Edited Date/Time 2/18/2019 3:17pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Psssst...We don't post like that. The minions like to go on their non-racer uninformed rants without our OG inputs. Can you imagine these drama queens actually...
Psssst...We don't post like that. The minions like to go on their non-racer uninformed rants without our OG inputs.

Can you imagine these drama queens actually "being there" when Hannah and Howerton were having their "on track" dispute or do ya think ANY of these millenial Crying Room occupiers would have survived a lap with Rocket Rex?

Bye the way...you missed an awesome day at Glen Helen, yesterday...I even had a "two laps on the ground" experience as Palmer's bike and mine were locked together for TWO LAPS! Got last that Moto...then...1st in my second Moto.

T'was a good day.
BobPA wrote:
Are you trying to talk down on us? Or just using all kinds of “in the know” lingo that is supposed to offend? What’s a Rocket...
Are you trying to talk down on us? Or just using all kinds of “in the know” lingo that is supposed to offend? What’s a Rocket Rex? Is he some kind of takeout artist? Does not take a pile of skill to aim at a front wheel.

Two aggressive guys got together, one got the shit end of the stick. He also broke the most common takeout rule....don’t takeout yourself in the process, D’oh. He also shot himself in the foot by lobbying for cleaner riding, then taking someone out, blatantly, a few days later.

I do not agree with the DQ, but I certainly see where the AMA is coming from.
Rocket Rex Staten? History, dear boy. History.

Also, the continuous reference to “insider” stuff or better yet...”talking down”?
Really?
That’s kinda of like what we call a “tell” at the poker table and reeks of “butt-hurt”.
How about some of the keyboard warriors thinking before they go off like a teenage drama queen after her 1st beer?
How about grown men posting like adults instead of the aforementioned drama queen’s hot mess of sniveling come bitching?
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Compromised 2/18/2019 3:25pm
2/18/2019 3:25pm
200lbs????

Is he a linebacker?
chump6784
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chump6784 2/18/2019 3:26pm
2/18/2019 3:26pm
chump6784 wrote:
To me it's kind of like when you go to court for drink driving. If it's your first time there you might get the minimum penalty...
To me it's kind of like when you go to court for drink driving. If it's your first time there you might get the minimum penalty the judge can give, if you've been there a number of times the judge is going to throw the book at you. Bowers has been there a few times and got the book thrown at him
Goon126 wrote:
What about all the times Barcia has taken out people????? Just curious to those that have been on Vital for over 7 years. Were people defending...
What about all the times Barcia has taken out people?????

Just curious to those that have been on Vital for over 7 years. Were people defending Barcia back in 2012 for roosting Asterisk medical personnel as much as they are right now?
Barcia got absolutely crucified on here when that happened.

I think the same thing would apply if Barcia pulls the same move Bowers did. He has a history of dirty riding as well. I know there was no penalty given to Barcia for his contact worth Bowers last year but that was nowhere near as dirty move as Bowers was even though the outcome was worse
BR8ES
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BR8ES 2/18/2019 3:38pm
2/18/2019 3:38pm
BR8ES wrote:
Rocket Rex was a hardass back in the old days, not even fair to have his name mentioned along side Bowers.
TeamGreen wrote:
Rex wouldn’t have hesitated to put Barcia on the ground.
that is true. Then maybe a crescent wrench to the head later.
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motomike137 2/18/2019 3:54pm
2/18/2019 3:54pm
BR8ES wrote:
should be pretty easy to punish the obvious, blatant moves where your bike is used as a weapon, but it is not for the powers to...
should be pretty easy to punish the obvious, blatant moves where your bike is used as a weapon, but it is not for the powers to be. Can you imagine if one of the big names was DQ'd for this? Big names always get the speial treatment, sadly. Bowers is correct on the consistency aspects, I will give him that. Big difference bewtween a good blockpass, going for it versus a T-bone punting.
motomike137 wrote:
I can't imagine one of the "big names" lining up someones leg with their front tire like Bowers did and that includes Bam Bam. Blatant attempt...
I can't imagine one of the "big names" lining up someones leg with their front tire like Bowers did and that includes Bam Bam. Blatant attempt to injure Barcia is what I saw.
BR8ES wrote:
There has been some pretty blatant take outs and injuries by riders quite high on the food chain.
Name one.
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BR8ES 2/18/2019 3:59pm
2/18/2019 3:59pm
motomike137 wrote:
I can't imagine one of the "big names" lining up someones leg with their front tire like Bowers did and that includes Bam Bam. Blatant attempt...
I can't imagine one of the "big names" lining up someones leg with their front tire like Bowers did and that includes Bam Bam. Blatant attempt to injure Barcia is what I saw.
BR8ES wrote:
There has been some pretty blatant take outs and injuries by riders quite high on the food chain.
motomike137 wrote:
Name one.
do your own research and look into this thread already. Wait, it has never happened in your mind apparently and this is a new phenomena.

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