Pure Speed Hypothetical (Dungey v. Roczen v. Tomac)

2WheelsForTheMasses 6/18/2017 8:21pm
6/18/2017 8:21pm
Non of them can match K-roc's speed...consistency is a different thing though as we have seen from Dungey. As for Tomac he is out right the most aggressive rider I've seen
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kzizok 6/18/2017 8:42pm
6/18/2017 8:42pm Edited Date/Time 6/18/2017 8:46pm
This is definitely one of those questions that can be settled quickly, agreed upon by the majority, and with little debate.

I look for this thread to conclude shortly. Kinda surprised it went this far.
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SwingHard 6/18/2017 9:25pm
6/18/2017 9:25pm
Hut wrote:
RV was just plain faster than Dungey 'nuff said
Thank You
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agn5009 6/18/2017 9:27pm
6/18/2017 9:27pm
Sodipop wrote:
At there best who do you think is the fastest. I think the best we've seen Tomac indoors was this season and outdoors was the beginning...
At there best who do you think is the fastest.

I think the best we've seen Tomac indoors was this season and outdoors was the beginning of 2015.

Roczen struggled in 2015 for the rest of the year after casing that jump early in SX but was obviously building momentum from the halfway point in 2016 SX to outdoors where he was great outdoors last year. He was probably at his best in SX at the beginning of 15 and 17.

Dungey wasn't the same guy this year in SX as he was in 2016 but still won the title. I think his best year in SX was actually 2016 when he was the fastest guy

My point here is that it seems like none of these guys were ever at their best at the same time so who do you think at their best would be the fastest?

It obviously doesn't matter but it's a fun bench racing topic.
Rehaustykus wrote:
Its a great Question. I think Rozcen's better in a night (supercross), Tomac's better in a day (Outdoors) but Dungey's better over a year.
I think this pretty much sums it up. Although Eli's mid season speed this year in sx may not have been matched by Roczen. Unfortunately we will never know.

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sickboy3636 6/18/2017 9:46pm
6/18/2017 9:46pm
I truly believe Dunge had the speed in his back pocket and was very wise in the way he used it. The times where he truly wanted to hang it out....Minneapolis when he was determined to beat RV. But I think what made Dunge so great is he knew when and where to use it. He knew that you only get so many rides outside of that comfort speed before you have an "Eli 2015" or "K-Roc 2017". People can debate about outright speed all day long.....but racing is application of that speed....and Dungey calculated that risk prob better than any rider in history. In outright speed Pastrana was an animal on a bike......but by his own admission, "he wasn't a racer" cause he couldn't channel it correctly. Of the 3 mentioned they couldn't beat Dunge for the title and I think that pretty much speaks for itself.
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kiwifan 6/18/2017 9:48pm
6/18/2017 9:48pm
This sums it up....unfortunately for one reason or another we have never seen all 3 fully fit riders in either series (in its entirety), so as the OP said its purely hypothetical and depends who is your favorite as to who is faster.

I mean you could say well for first 2 rounds this year, all 3 riders were fit in SX and KR owned them...so is he fastest? no, its needs to be over a whole season to have any meaning.
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Cortami79 6/18/2017 11:26pm
6/18/2017 11:26pm
IMO Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to beat Dungey at every race. Just because Dungey mostly had better starts, so Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to get up to Dungey. At some races, it resulted in unbelievable efforts and raw speed. At others, it resulted in bad crashes or just simply bad finishes because Dungey was more consistent. Don't forget the amount of times Dungey had the fastest time in qualifying sessions, says something about raw speed. But to answer your question pure hypothetical, I think Roczen has more raw speed indoors, Tomac more outdoors (2015 comes to mind).
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sickboy3636 6/18/2017 11:49pm
6/18/2017 11:49pm
Cortami79 wrote:
IMO Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to beat Dungey at [u]every[/u] race. Just because Dungey mostly had better starts, so Tomac and...
IMO Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to beat Dungey at every race. Just because Dungey mostly had better starts, so Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to get up to Dungey. At some races, it resulted in unbelievable efforts and raw speed. At others, it resulted in bad crashes or just simply bad finishes because Dungey was more consistent. Don't forget the amount of times Dungey had the fastest time in qualifying sessions, says something about raw speed. But to answer your question pure hypothetical, I think Roczen has more raw speed indoors, Tomac more outdoors (2015 comes to mind).
We'll see if Roczen adapts the "Dungey philosophy" if he makes it back to full strength. Young and dumb can get you out front in a hurry, but can land you with some serious health problems. Now that Eli has both of his shoulders finally back, he hasn't tried paddling the field by 2 minutes......that just may say something about his shift in mentality. Dungey was always wise beyond his years and I truly believe thats much of what Decoster saw in him that no-one else did......however thats also why people try to knock him for not having "raw speed". Dungey was just extremely calculated and precise in how he delivered it.
EnvyMedia 6/19/2017 4:06am
6/19/2017 4:06am
I think Tomac has more overall raw speed. And that's because of his riding style. He takes a lot of outside lines and usually takes the long way around. Roczen takes smarter and shorter lines which takes less speed for the same laptime (if that makes sense lol). Watch the 2014 MXdN to have a good example.

It's also crazy to think that Dungey could ride conservative while still matching the pace, while when Tomac for example rides conservative he doesn't have the pace of the front runners.
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deluxeman 6/19/2017 4:31am
6/19/2017 4:31am
Fog 25 wrote:
Anybody that went faster than Dungey ended on the ground or in the Hospital !!!
Bingo
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PRM31 6/19/2017 4:48am
6/19/2017 4:48am
I think Tomac has the most pure speed. Roczen is not far behind. Eli has not shown much consistency though. Dungey has the most speed week in and week out. Neither Tomac or Roczen have proven they can keep it on two wheels for an extended period while riding faster than Dungey.
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Park Boys 6/19/2017 4:54am
6/19/2017 4:54am
Cortami79 wrote:
IMO Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to beat Dungey at [u]every[/u] race. Just because Dungey mostly had better starts, so Tomac and...
IMO Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to beat Dungey at every race. Just because Dungey mostly had better starts, so Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to get up to Dungey. At some races, it resulted in unbelievable efforts and raw speed. At others, it resulted in bad crashes or just simply bad finishes because Dungey was more consistent. Don't forget the amount of times Dungey had the fastest time in qualifying sessions, says something about raw speed. But to answer your question pure hypothetical, I think Roczen has more raw speed indoors, Tomac more outdoors (2015 comes to mind).
Ehh maybe SX they have to ride over their head to beat him. I think Roczen has pissed away two SX titles 15 and 17. But outdoors Roczen beat Dungey two out of three.
Holtslayer 6/19/2017 4:55am
6/19/2017 4:55am
Tomac looks the fastest. Ken an Ryan are a lot smoother. I think Ken has the best racecraft out of them.
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dboivin 6/19/2017 5:20am
6/19/2017 5:20am Edited Date/Time 6/19/2017 5:22am
has anyone "ran Tomac down" and passed him for the win? ever?

and yes i'm referring when he's on. before his surgeries and after making friends with that kawasaki.
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BobPA 6/19/2017 5:31am
6/19/2017 5:31am
Cortami79 wrote:
IMO Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to beat Dungey at [u]every[/u] race. Just because Dungey mostly had better starts, so Tomac and...
IMO Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to beat Dungey at every race. Just because Dungey mostly had better starts, so Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to get up to Dungey. At some races, it resulted in unbelievable efforts and raw speed. At others, it resulted in bad crashes or just simply bad finishes because Dungey was more consistent. Don't forget the amount of times Dungey had the fastest time in qualifying sessions, says something about raw speed. But to answer your question pure hypothetical, I think Roczen has more raw speed indoors, Tomac more outdoors (2015 comes to mind).
Park Boys wrote:
Ehh maybe SX they have to ride over their head to beat him. I think Roczen has pissed away two SX titles 15 and 17. But...
Ehh maybe SX they have to ride over their head to beat him. I think Roczen has pissed away two SX titles 15 and 17. But outdoors Roczen beat Dungey two out of three.
Kenny completed 2 rounds in SX this year, literally 2. How can you say it was his to throw away?
TheOriginalPancakee 6/19/2017 5:38am
6/19/2017 5:38am
Titan1 wrote:
How many times did RV crash out of championships trying to go faster than Dungey?
SwingHard wrote:
Better yet,how many Chapiomships did RV win because he was faster than Dungey?
Titan1 wrote:
How many titles did RV not win because of injury...while trying to run a pace that he knew Dungey wouldn't match? Injury cost RV a lot...
How many titles did RV not win because of injury...while trying to run a pace that he knew Dungey wouldn't match?

Injury cost RV a lot of titles. Dungey lost more titles to mechanicals than injury...I don't think it's a stretch to assume RV knew he had to push right to his ragged edge in order to beat Dungey...he was able to run on that edge and beat Dungey like no other rider has been able to (not Roczen nor Tomac).
RV was doing something right. Won 4 straight against the most consistent dude ever..while going much faster
TheOriginalPancakee 6/19/2017 5:40am
6/19/2017 5:40am
Cortami79 wrote:
IMO Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to beat Dungey at [u]every[/u] race. Just because Dungey mostly had better starts, so Tomac and...
IMO Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to beat Dungey at every race. Just because Dungey mostly had better starts, so Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to get up to Dungey. At some races, it resulted in unbelievable efforts and raw speed. At others, it resulted in bad crashes or just simply bad finishes because Dungey was more consistent. Don't forget the amount of times Dungey had the fastest time in qualifying sessions, says something about raw speed. But to answer your question pure hypothetical, I think Roczen has more raw speed indoors, Tomac more outdoors (2015 comes to mind).
Don't even bring up qualifying. Last year in outdoors Kenny didn't even qualify fastest every race then he'd go out and win by 25 seconds.
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davistld01 6/19/2017 5:43am
6/19/2017 5:43am
Rehaustykus wrote:
Its a great Question. I think Rozcen's better in a night (supercross), Tomac's better in a day (Outdoors) but Dungey's better over a year.
Best answer so far. Laughing

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JTH935 6/19/2017 5:53am
6/19/2017 5:53am Edited Date/Time 6/19/2017 6:05am
Titan1 wrote:
How many titles did RV not win because of injury...while trying to run a pace that he knew Dungey wouldn't match? Injury cost RV a lot...
How many titles did RV not win because of injury...while trying to run a pace that he knew Dungey wouldn't match?

Injury cost RV a lot of titles. Dungey lost more titles to mechanicals than injury...I don't think it's a stretch to assume RV knew he had to push right to his ragged edge in order to beat Dungey...he was able to run on that edge and beat Dungey like no other rider has been able to (not Roczen nor Tomac).
I am no fan of RV by any stretch of the imagination but this comment is just foolish, you do realize RV beat Dunge In EVERY Championship they ever competed in together other then 2010 which by the way RV was leading the points until the mishap in St.Louis.
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BobPA 6/19/2017 5:56am
6/19/2017 5:56am
Cortami79 wrote:
IMO Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to beat Dungey at [u]every[/u] race. Just because Dungey mostly had better starts, so Tomac and...
IMO Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to beat Dungey at every race. Just because Dungey mostly had better starts, so Tomac and Roczen had to ride over their limit to get up to Dungey. At some races, it resulted in unbelievable efforts and raw speed. At others, it resulted in bad crashes or just simply bad finishes because Dungey was more consistent. Don't forget the amount of times Dungey had the fastest time in qualifying sessions, says something about raw speed. But to answer your question pure hypothetical, I think Roczen has more raw speed indoors, Tomac more outdoors (2015 comes to mind).
TheOriginalPancakee wrote:
Don't even bring up qualifying. Last year in outdoors Kenny didn't even qualify fastest every race then he'd go out and win by 25 seconds.
Do not even bring your opinion into any threads, it is all just dribble and extremely biased. Just a waste of bandwidth
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KirkChandler 6/19/2017 7:26am
6/19/2017 7:26am
JTH935 wrote:
I am no fan of RV by any stretch of the imagination but this comment is just foolish, you do realize RV beat Dunge In EVERY...
I am no fan of RV by any stretch of the imagination but this comment is just foolish, you do realize RV beat Dunge In EVERY Championship they ever competed in together other then 2010 which by the way RV was leading the points until the mishap in St.Louis.
Dungey was leading the points when RV crashed out in St Louis 2010. RV was closing on his mid season run, but he wasn't leading the points.

As far as raw speed, Dungey never looked Fast, he was almost always in control. His Suzuki days he looked like he was pushing it more. Then again he was just a young hungry buck back then.

Tomac always looks the fastest of these 3 with the eye test because of his style, line choice and how he blasts through the corners. He stands a lot which helps keep his momentum.

Kenny is so smooth and his scrubs make him look fast. Also his feet on the pegs standing up style. His aggression off of the start to go all out and blitz the pack reminds me of McGrath in the 90s. Gap the field and then maintain.

All in all, they are all freaking fast.

RV was faster and more accomplished than all 3 of the above at the end of his career. His corner technique and his relentless aggression made him tough to beat in each race and each season.

But as far as pure speed no one can top Stewart. James had that razors edge speed at the drop of the hat. He won heat races after crashing off the start. 8 laps and blitz the whole pack. RC beat Stewart by pushing the pace for the whole race and on race craft, not necessarily speed.
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Sodipop 6/19/2017 7:53am
6/19/2017 7:53am
dboivin wrote:
has anyone "ran Tomac down" and passed him for the win? ever? and yes i'm referring when he's on. before his surgeries and after making friends...
has anyone "ran Tomac down" and passed him for the win? ever?

and yes i'm referring when he's on. before his surgeries and after making friends with that kawasaki.
Blake Baggett?
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Acidreamer 6/19/2017 7:56am
6/19/2017 7:56am Edited Date/Time 6/19/2017 7:58am
Rv is the fastest rider ive ever seen. Probably stew or tomac after. Then kenny, then dungey.

Edit: put rc in with eli and stew
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TXDirt 6/19/2017 8:13am
6/19/2017 8:13am
sickboy3636 wrote:
I truly believe Dunge had the speed in his back pocket and was very wise in the way he used it. The times where he truly...
I truly believe Dunge had the speed in his back pocket and was very wise in the way he used it. The times where he truly wanted to hang it out....Minneapolis when he was determined to beat RV. But I think what made Dunge so great is he knew when and where to use it. He knew that you only get so many rides outside of that comfort speed before you have an "Eli 2015" or "K-Roc 2017". People can debate about outright speed all day long.....but racing is application of that speed....and Dungey calculated that risk prob better than any rider in history. In outright speed Pastrana was an animal on a bike......but by his own admission, "he wasn't a racer" cause he couldn't channel it correctly. Of the 3 mentioned they couldn't beat Dunge for the title and I think that pretty much speaks for itself.
I think your comment is pretty spot-on. He definitely has the speed. Just go look at all his race wins. Indoors and out. He was an expert at calculating risk and no need to hang it out on the edge when you don't really have to. He's one of the most accomplished riders the sport has ever seen. He didn't get to that level by being slow! He's an absolute beast and everyone on the gate always knew that Dungey would be there at the end. How many other riders can say that? Very very few over the years.
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mxb2 6/19/2017 8:39am
6/19/2017 8:39am
Speed doesn't mean anything if ya can't finish. Heat race hero, fastest lap. don't win titles. Finishing first at the checkers does.
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visser62 6/19/2017 8:54am
6/19/2017 8:54am
SwingHard wrote:
Better yet,how many Chapiomships did RV win because he was faster than Dungey?
Titan1 wrote:
How many titles did RV not win because of injury...while trying to run a pace that he knew Dungey wouldn't match? Injury cost RV a lot...
How many titles did RV not win because of injury...while trying to run a pace that he knew Dungey wouldn't match?

Injury cost RV a lot of titles. Dungey lost more titles to mechanicals than injury...I don't think it's a stretch to assume RV knew he had to push right to his ragged edge in order to beat Dungey...he was able to run on that edge and beat Dungey like no other rider has been able to (not Roczen nor Tomac).
TheOriginalPancakee wrote:
RV was doing something right. Won 4 straight against the most consistent dude ever..while going much faster
RV got injured in 2010. Other than that, he never got injured "trying to run a pace that he knew Dungey wouldn't match."

He got injured in 2012 in a weird crash in a corner, not because he was going too fast. And then when he tore his ACL in 2014 Dungey was not even a threat.
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PabstBR11 6/19/2017 9:13am
6/19/2017 9:13am
Hut wrote:
RV was just plain faster than Dungey 'nuff said
Ding Ding
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SwingHard 6/19/2017 12:13pm
6/19/2017 12:13pm
Fog 25 wrote:
Anybody that went faster than Dungey ended on the ground or in the Hospital !!!
deluxeman wrote:
Bingo
RV's last year racing SX,lead every lap of the last 4 rounds,every lap! Not to mention outdoors.
And it didn't take anybody retiring for him to dominate. Dungey and all the heavy hitters were in it.
1st Amendment 6/19/2017 12:21pm
6/19/2017 12:21pm
RV benefited off guys like Stewart and Dungey going to bikes that nobody wanted to ride
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Sodipop 6/19/2017 12:24pm
6/19/2017 12:24pm
1st Amendment wrote:
RV benefited off guys like Stewart and Dungey going to bikes that nobody wanted to ride
I think both RV and Dungey benefitted from James and Chad making bad decisions.

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