Holy Smokes! Who wrote this caption?

rryker
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12/1/2015 2:02pm


You're talking at the pro level. I look at 125s as a missing link in rider development. It also used to be a staple at local tracks. It could/should be again.


This is the reason I have bought two new Yamaha YZ 125 in the last 12 months. My son just came off of 85's and supermini's 14yrs old. We discussed this together and decided to ride 125's for a year and then look at the 250F's. I am very glad we did.
You can always race your 125's in the 250 class.
rosebud441
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12/1/2015 2:06pm
Carlos Z wrote:
If you want to see what bike the public wants then go down to your local track on race day and watch the vet novice, intermediate...
If you want to see what bike the public wants then go down to your local track on race day and watch the vet novice, intermediate and expert class. These guys can show up on the line with any bike they want and probably finish in the same position. These same guys grew up with 2-strokes. You'd think they would be riding the cheaper, lighter, more fun, , easy to work on, powerful 250 two-strokes. Yet almost all of them are riding 4-strokes. Sorry Charlie. If you can't convince those guys then good luck to you bringing back the 2-stroke.
Possibly... up here plenty of older guys ride 4 strokes, and expensive, tricked to the shit ones too..

And i love, just love creeping up on them with my 125 screaming to the point where they make a mistake and i get by,
its not like i'm faster, its the thought of being past by such a slow bike makes one ride over there head.. (And i am old too)

But i do get killed of the start, and I sink if i miss a gear or fall out of my wee tiny window of power..
I think this is what motivates me to keep riding.
hvaughn88
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12/1/2015 2:10pm
...yes....12 wks full time in the summer at 40 hrs...24 wks part time at 20 hrs per wk...
hvaughn88 wrote:
run that math again
newmann wrote:
12 and 24, not either or. In other words the kid is going to have to work his ass off. But then he will be distraught...
12 and 24, not either or. In other words the kid is going to have to work his ass off. But then he will be distraught because his unlimited cell plan is past due and he can't afford any new X-Box games.
ahhhh, I see. My apologizes, dino. I should have paid more attention to the '&'. I was wrong.
Racer142
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12/1/2015 2:10pm
Motofinne wrote:
I actually did watch it the day they released it. And i knew i would get a comment like this. I'm a fan of 2 strokes...
I actually did watch it the day they released it.

And i knew i would get a comment like this.

I'm a fan of 2 strokes, hell go and take a look at my bike checks. I have an RM 250 2007. But that proves my point. it's an 2007. The demand of brand new 2 strokes(big bikes) is not high enough.
GuyB wrote:
So it should be the latest and greatest? Would you buy one if it came with the price tag associated with latest and greatest? Two-strokes definitely...
So it should be the latest and greatest? Would you buy one if it came with the price tag associated with latest and greatest?

Two-strokes definitely have their place. But I was also talking to one current fast pro this weekend (think top ten), who said the 250 he was on was slow, and that 250 two-strokes would never be competitive against 450s.
I love hearing this argument. Does anybody remember back in I think 2001 when Davey was the field commentator for SX and he was talking about the yamaha of Troy yz250f being to powerful making the 125 obsolete and he could increase the minimum weight or reduce the cc's to keep the 125 competitive? I'm sure somebody knows what im talking about.

The Shop

12/1/2015 2:11pm Edited Date/Time 12/1/2015 2:11pm
stone881 wrote:
The single most important factor that hasn't yet been brought up, at least in this forum, is economics. While those of us posting here are fanatics...
The single most important factor that hasn't yet been brought up, at least in this forum, is economics. While those of us posting here are fanatics, the manufacturers are only concerned with making money. It's not worth it to them to invest anything more than they already do in the dirtbike market, because they make peanuts. Of course parts/repairs makes them more money with the thumpers than the smokers.

I used to work in the moto industry at both dealer and manufacturer levels, but I have no desire to work in that industry again, so I will tell you what the profit is in a bike. Bear in mind I don't remember exact figures and the numbers have certainly changed. I would guess that margins are tighter now than they were in the hey day of the 2000's.

Bikes above 250cc about $1000 markup on front end, with anywhere from $300-$1000 more on the back end depending on year/model.

Bikes from 85 up to 250cc about $700 and maybe another $300 on the back end.

Play bikes vary from about $300-$700 with a couple hundred on the back end.

The manufacturers were making around 20% back then and probably still are.

Example 2008 Yz 250 smoker- List $6800
Dealer cost- $5700
Hold Back - $400
OEM cost- $4300

Anyway you slice it, the big 4 make way more money off of the other products they sell.
The other problem is many dealerships don't want to deal with racers, who tend to be demanding and want everything at a big discount because they are the next JS7.
I know dealers that participate heavily in the moto scene, and they still don't want to deal with racers. Not when you have a guy walking in ready to drop huge money on a cruiser and finance $2000 worth of accessories.
Then you have the mom and pop rural dirt shops that will blow dirt bikes out for $200 profit.
newmann
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12/1/2015 2:20pm
Motofinne wrote:
I actually did watch it the day they released it. And i knew i would get a comment like this. I'm a fan of 2 strokes...
I actually did watch it the day they released it.

And i knew i would get a comment like this.

I'm a fan of 2 strokes, hell go and take a look at my bike checks. I have an RM 250 2007. But that proves my point. it's an 2007. The demand of brand new 2 strokes(big bikes) is not high enough.
GuyB wrote:
So it should be the latest and greatest? Would you buy one if it came with the price tag associated with latest and greatest? Two-strokes definitely...
So it should be the latest and greatest? Would you buy one if it came with the price tag associated with latest and greatest?

Two-strokes definitely have their place. But I was also talking to one current fast pro this weekend (think top ten), who said the 250 he was on was slow, and that 250 two-strokes would never be competitive against 450s.
Racer142 wrote:
I love hearing this argument. Does anybody remember back in I think 2001 when Davey was the field commentator for SX and he was talking about...
I love hearing this argument. Does anybody remember back in I think 2001 when Davey was the field commentator for SX and he was talking about the yamaha of Troy yz250f being to powerful making the 125 obsolete and he could increase the minimum weight or reduce the cc's to keep the 125 competitive? I'm sure somebody knows what im talking about.
Yes I do, he stated that they didn't know if the displacement was the correct number or if they would have to adjust.

Also, Mitch Payton had plenty to say as well.

" I don't know that I like the 250 four-strokes in the 125 class. It is too much of an advantage. They are double the size of our KX125's. Double! The legal four-strokes in the 250 class aren't double. The legal four strokes in the 80 class aren't double. You need to find a happy medium, and 250 ain't it. They are going to keep getting better, too. Right now, the 125's can run with them with momentum and speed in the corners, but what happens when you get behind them is that they slow down in the corners because they don't corner as well. They squirt the first ten or twenty feet, and then you have to try and run them down. That's hard. They get great starts too because of their traction. They have a big advantage here. You get little kids getting off an 80cc bike and they'll have to go to a 250. It is too big for them, too heavy and they can't start the things. All the manufacturers are working on them, and unfortunately we'll all be racing them in a few years."


Quoted in MXA, Sept. 2001.

Mitch knew then that it was an "unfortunate" offering but no one even listened to him.
Phillip_Lamb
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12/1/2015 2:28pm
pete24 wrote:
you need to watch the Premix video......................................twice
you need to watch the Premix video......................................twice
ML512 wrote:
Why? So you can drown out the truth of what he just said?
jeffro503 wrote:
well , let's look at it this way. Is there a ton more 2 strokes out on the track today compared to let's say...5yrs ago? I...
well , let's look at it this way. Is there a ton more 2 strokes out on the track today compared to let's say...5yrs ago?

I would say there is about 10X more 2 strokes at the tracks I visit compared to 5yrs ago. The thing is , they are mostly Yamaha's and KTM's , because the other 3 big manif's don't produce one. We would see plenty more out there if we had a newer 2 stroke made from these three , stuck inside a new gen chassis.

And that isn't just the tone here on vital , that is what's happening at most tracks now days. At least up here it is.
ill second this. im seeing more guys on yz250s and ktms here. last time i was at a track about a month ago there were about a dozen 250's and those who were on them were your novice/int guys.
LoudLove
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12/1/2015 2:29pm
China could "retro-build" a modern two stroke for half of Japan's current cost and address the economic issues outlined above. If the market exists, they have likely considered entering it.

Have any moto-journalists attempted to interview a Chinese manufacturer? That might be an interesting conversation.
Racer142
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12/1/2015 2:38pm Edited Date/Time 12/1/2015 2:39pm
newmann wrote:
Yes I do, he stated that they didn't know if the displacement was the correct number or if they would have to adjust. Also, Mitch Payton...
Yes I do, he stated that they didn't know if the displacement was the correct number or if they would have to adjust.

Also, Mitch Payton had plenty to say as well.

" I don't know that I like the 250 four-strokes in the 125 class. It is too much of an advantage. They are double the size of our KX125's. Double! The legal four-strokes in the 250 class aren't double. The legal four strokes in the 80 class aren't double. You need to find a happy medium, and 250 ain't it. They are going to keep getting better, too. Right now, the 125's can run with them with momentum and speed in the corners, but what happens when you get behind them is that they slow down in the corners because they don't corner as well. They squirt the first ten or twenty feet, and then you have to try and run them down. That's hard. They get great starts too because of their traction. They have a big advantage here. You get little kids getting off an 80cc bike and they'll have to go to a 250. It is too big for them, too heavy and they can't start the things. All the manufacturers are working on them, and unfortunately we'll all be racing them in a few years."


Quoted in MXA, Sept. 2001.

Mitch knew then that it was an "unfortunate" offering but no one even listened to him.
Exactly! The funny part is most modern fans have no idea what im talking about. I hear the argument that is"unfair" to race 250 vs 250 but it's also just as unfair to race 125 vs 250 and the people in charge openly admitted that would be a possibility 14 years ago and did nothing to stop it. Every time I hear how 4 strokes are better racing machines and it's unfair to race 250 vs 250 in the same argument I can't help but laugh.
newmann
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12/1/2015 2:41pm
LoudLove wrote:
China could "retro-build" a modern two stroke for half of Japan's current cost and address the economic issues outlined above. If the market exists, they have...
China could "retro-build" a modern two stroke for half of Japan's current cost and address the economic issues outlined above. If the market exists, they have likely considered entering it.

Have any moto-journalists attempted to interview a Chinese manufacturer? That might be an interesting conversation.
For an "entry level" bike KTM could do it with a PDS style rear shock, no linkage. They could even stuff a updated air cooled engine in it with decent performance and reliability. No radiators, water pump, power valve, hydraulic clutch or top quality 260mm Brembo's needed. Anyone who thinks these are necessities have never seen fast guys on vintage bikes.

Uncle Tony
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12/1/2015 2:53pm
I said this before, I think there should be a 6 or 8 race 125 national championship after the GP's and nationals are over, run with a women's national motocross championship kinda like the old TRAN-AMA series, I think it would attract euros from the awesome EMX 125 series as well as some euro girls to race in the WMX series, the women would be open to 4strokes of course but a full on 125 national championship I think it could work
12/1/2015 3:01pm Edited Date/Time 12/1/2015 3:05pm
Motofinne wrote:
I actually did watch it the day they released it. And i knew i would get a comment like this. I'm a fan of 2 strokes...
I actually did watch it the day they released it.

And i knew i would get a comment like this.

I'm a fan of 2 strokes, hell go and take a look at my bike checks. I have an RM 250 2007. But that proves my point. it's an 2007. The demand of brand new 2 strokes(big bikes) is not high enough.
GuyB wrote:
So it should be the latest and greatest? Would you buy one if it came with the price tag associated with latest and greatest? Two-strokes definitely...
So it should be the latest and greatest? Would you buy one if it came with the price tag associated with latest and greatest?

Two-strokes definitely have their place. But I was also talking to one current fast pro this weekend (think top ten), who said the 250 he was on was slow, and that 250 two-strokes would never be competitive against 450s.
That's not entirely true... At the local amature level, 250 two strokes are very competitive with the 450's.. Very competitive!
Not trying to toot my own horn, but I've beaten my fair share of 450's on an 05 KX 250(one of the most abrupt hard to ride 250's ever made). But I guess at the pro level its a different ball game.. All the more reason we need equal discplacement.
12/1/2015 3:30pm
huck wrote:
Why do so many of you think it's a huge conspiracy? Goodness. 2 strokes are being phased out of a lot of different small engines.
People care because simple legislation, a couple lines of print in a rulebook that is irrelevant to the consumer, is determining what the consumer will ride. It takes the choice away when combined a stubborn, non-capitalistic country of manufacture.

The stroke of a pen would open up many more choices in technology, but the pen stroker won't budge.
mxb2
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12/1/2015 3:42pm
Go ride your bikes. quit complaing or do something about it besides complaing about the rules on vital .
GuyB
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12/1/2015 3:48pm
LoudLove wrote:
China could "retro-build" a modern two stroke for half of Japan's current cost and address the economic issues outlined above. If the market exists, they have...
China could "retro-build" a modern two stroke for half of Japan's current cost and address the economic issues outlined above. If the market exists, they have likely considered entering it.

Have any moto-journalists attempted to interview a Chinese manufacturer? That might be an interesting conversation.
No, but knowing some Chinese quality, we'll happily let you be the first to test it. Wink
FI2T
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12/1/2015 3:48pm
That's not entirely true... At the local amature level, 250 two strokes are very competitive with the 450's.. Very competitive! Not trying to toot my own...
That's not entirely true... At the local amature level, 250 two strokes are very competitive with the 450's.. Very competitive!
Not trying to toot my own horn, but I've beaten my fair share of 450's on an 05 KX 250(one of the most abrupt hard to ride 250's ever made). But I guess at the pro level its a different ball game.. All the more reason we need equal discplacement.
It is entirely true. You are a far better rider then the guys you are beating (compliment)! Same adult rider with equal seat time on either machine is consistently faster on a 450. Definitely time for equal displacement or at least some changes!
rosebud441
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12/1/2015 3:57pm
LoudLove wrote:
China could "retro-build" a modern two stroke for half of Japan's current cost and address the economic issues outlined above. If the market exists, they have...
China could "retro-build" a modern two stroke for half of Japan's current cost and address the economic issues outlined above. If the market exists, they have likely considered entering it.

Have any moto-journalists attempted to interview a Chinese manufacturer? That might be an interesting conversation.
newmann wrote:
For an "entry level" bike KTM could do it with a PDS style rear shock, no linkage. They could even stuff a updated air cooled engine...
For an "entry level" bike KTM could do it with a PDS style rear shock, no linkage. They could even stuff a updated air cooled engine in it with decent performance and reliability. No radiators, water pump, power valve, hydraulic clutch or top quality 260mm Brembo's needed. Anyone who thinks these are necessities have never seen fast guys on vintage bikes.

that pic makes my back, knees, wrist and ankles hurt!! Crazy
hellion
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12/1/2015 4:06pm
LoudLove wrote:
China could "retro-build" a modern two stroke for half of Japan's current cost and address the economic issues outlined above. If the market exists, they have...
China could "retro-build" a modern two stroke for half of Japan's current cost and address the economic issues outlined above. If the market exists, they have likely considered entering it.

Have any moto-journalists attempted to interview a Chinese manufacturer? That might be an interesting conversation.
GuyB wrote:
No, but knowing some Chinese quality, we'll happily let you be the first to test it. Wink
GuyB, I'm with you on this as I try to buy anything not made in China usually. But, this is a very interesting thought to me. When the Japanese bikes first showed up they were thought of as cheap lesser quality bikes. That quickly changed. It seems the market is more than ripe for history to repeat itself.
nascarnate326
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12/1/2015 4:10pm
As good as the KTM 125 is there are lots and lots of people that just don't like them.

Im a diehard Honda fan and recently got a 02 CR125...its soooo light!!!

I can already tell my efi 450 will be sitting in the garage and I'm going to be out reving the balls of a carb'd bike from the past because its fun...the whole reason we do this stuff.
tempura
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12/1/2015 5:44pm
LoudLove wrote:
China could "retro-build" a modern two stroke for half of Japan's current cost and address the economic issues outlined above. If the market exists, they have...
China could "retro-build" a modern two stroke for half of Japan's current cost and address the economic issues outlined above. If the market exists, they have likely considered entering it.

Have any moto-journalists attempted to interview a Chinese manufacturer? That might be an interesting conversation.
GuyB wrote:
No, but knowing some Chinese quality, we'll happily let you be the first to test it. Wink
The Chinese are very capable of producing quality products as good or better than the Japanese, Europeans and Americans. They've cornered the market in cheap shit because that's what people have demanded by shopping at big stores like Walmart.
GuyB
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12/1/2015 5:47pm
tempura wrote:
The Chinese are very capable of producing quality products as good or better than the Japanese, Europeans and Americans. They've cornered the market in cheap shit...
The Chinese are very capable of producing quality products as good or better than the Japanese, Europeans and Americans. They've cornered the market in cheap shit because that's what people have demanded by shopping at big stores like Walmart.
Correct. Is what you described something you'd want to huck off a big jump?
ginger969
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12/1/2015 5:52pm
I think part of the fascination with two strokes today is simply because there is a nostalgia that comes along with owning/riding one these days. They're different, they're fun and they represent a cool era before what we have today as the standard. I've gone back and forth between the two smokes and the thumpers and I really just like riding bikes haha doesn't matter if they're smokin' or thumpin' to me. If two strokes saturated the tracks, trails and the market like the thumpers do today, then the nostalgia and excitement around them would inevitably fade as well Sad No one wants that so do your homework and find that freshie barn find and enjoy bringing it back to life like I have with a handful of 2 strokes I've built up and enjoyed! Smile brrrapppppppp!
newmann
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12/1/2015 5:54pm
The amount of GM and Ford replacement parts coming from China is growing rapidly. Kind of pisses one off.
tempura
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12/1/2015 6:04pm
The control and decisions that determines the rules and structure of modern racing goes all the way back to the manufacturers. The decisions made are based purely on profit, it's simply business.
Don't kid yourselves, the people working in or have business connections to the industry are small fry in comparison, all they are doing is towing the line.. its their bread and butter, and in their interest to tow the line. It's just business.
If the people out there (consumers) want to change the narrative, the most simple yet effective method is to stop buying four strokes and supporting them. It's just business.
Buy new two stokes and put your money where your mouth is, and things will surely change.
When the narrative changes all the small fry will follow.
tempura
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12/1/2015 6:06pm
GuyB wrote:
Correct. Is what you described something you'd want to huck off a big jump?
No way.
But if the money was pumped in, they could produce a bike as good as any other.
GuyB
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12/1/2015 6:10pm
tempura wrote:
No way.
But if the money was pumped in, they could produce a bike as good as any other.
Money...engineering, quality materials, and people on site to ensure that it stays that way.

And in case anyone's wondering, yes I know that many products are already built there, or Viet Nam, or other low-cost labor markets. But they're generally also not bikes used for racing applications.
tempura
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12/1/2015 6:26pm
GuyB wrote:
Money...engineering, quality materials, and people on site to ensure that it stays that way. And in case anyone's wondering, yes I know that many products are...
Money...engineering, quality materials, and people on site to ensure that it stays that way.

And in case anyone's wondering, yes I know that many products are already built there, or Viet Nam, or other low-cost labor markets. But they're generally also not bikes used for racing applications.
Money, engineering, quality materials. You'd be naive to think they don't process such things.
The Chinese have an independent space program which kind of rules them out, not having the above mentioned. It's just investment that's stopping them getting into things like race bikes.
They've found it easier to slowly gain economic dominance by flooding the world with cheap shit..
lumpy790
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12/1/2015 6:31pm
lumpy790 wrote:
I love my smokers but I also remember there being left over models in manufacturers warehouses for years. KTM/Husky & Yamaha sell a crap load of...
I love my smokers but I also remember there being left over models in manufacturers warehouses for years.

KTM/Husky & Yamaha sell a crap load of 250's and 300's. 125's are probably 25% of total 250 sales? IF Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki thought they could cash in on this market and not end up with leftovers in the whse they would.
newmann wrote:
There were leftovers because of a rule that literally made smaller displacement bikes obsolete overnight in competition. Quite understandable. Now we have leftover 4 strokes for...
There were leftovers because of a rule that literally made smaller displacement bikes obsolete overnight in competition. Quite understandable. Now we have leftover 4 strokes for years.
AHHHH NO .... There were 2 stroke leftovers before modern 4 strokes even came along.
lumpy790
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12/1/2015 6:34pm Edited Date/Time 12/1/2015 6:42pm
ATKpilot99 wrote:
No kidding . 450s are open bikes.
GuyB wrote:
And yet, that's how the AMA wrote the rule back in the day. At that point, it was considered fair. I think they were slow to...
And yet, that's how the AMA wrote the rule back in the day. At that point, it was considered fair. I think they were slow to react to changing it, and that's among the reasons why we're where we're at now.

newmann wrote:
The crooks and thieves at the AMA considered it fair. You do remember there were those there who were busy stealing money from the members at...
The crooks and thieves at the AMA considered it fair. You do remember there were those there who were busy stealing money from the members at the time. The rest of us knew that a high revving double displacement engine would be the death of the smaller 2 stroke. It wasn't fair then and still isn't today. But the AMA, one of them anyway, will be quick to point out that it is all up to Davey Coombs and MX Sports to make any changes today.
nevermind.
12/1/2015 6:37pm
newmann wrote:
For an "entry level" bike KTM could do it with a PDS style rear shock, no linkage. They could even stuff a updated air cooled engine...
For an "entry level" bike KTM could do it with a PDS style rear shock, no linkage. They could even stuff a updated air cooled engine in it with decent performance and reliability. No radiators, water pump, power valve, hydraulic clutch or top quality 260mm Brembo's needed. Anyone who thinks these are necessities have never seen fast guys on vintage bikes.

I would buy one of those tomorrow if KTM made it. 11" travel with basic cartridge forks & decent spring rates, air cooled two stroke, and a quiet silencer. Sign me up.

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