Sure feels like Alessi and MC got screwed

500guy
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8/12/2012 7:59pm
musmanni wrote:
How far did Dungey pull Alessi after Alessi had the holeshot? At the MXDN, there would be 20 guys in between Dungey and Alessi with the...
How far did Dungey pull Alessi after Alessi had the holeshot? At the MXDN, there would be 20 guys in between Dungey and Alessi with the performance Alessi had. Do you guys think all the other teams would put up with Alessi's antics like Dungey does, or do you think they would punt him off the track on the first lap?
News Flash

There is only one guy running in front of Alessi Here in the USA, I doubt there are 5 GP riders that could do it too.

You probably one of the clowns wearing a let J-law ride shirt while complaining Alessi is bad for the sport.

Mathes , I said twice in this thread I was wrong about the media coverage, I apologize for that comment
8/12/2012 8:00pm
What does MC have to do with Alessi?
jmar
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8/12/2012 8:01pm
Hopefully we don't get into world war three sending Barcia. Laughing
TeamGreen
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8/12/2012 8:02pm
What does MC have to do with Alessi?
Moto Concepts = MC

The Shop

kongols
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8/12/2012 8:21pm Edited Date/Time 8/12/2012 8:58pm
We are debating a comparison between Barcia, Tomac, Baggett and Mike. some people keep saying how much faster those guys are than mike. I'm saying that...
We are debating a comparison between Barcia, Tomac, Baggett and Mike. some people keep saying how much faster those guys are than mike. I'm saying that If someone jumps off a 250 and on a 450 they may be slower, I put their average lap times up for both Motos this weekend and Mike was consistently faster than all. Check it out, I posted to show how folks dog him for nothing like you just did. Dang Man he is the only one to step up in the 450 class and challenge Dungey, Mike was in front of Dungey almost half a moto and he beat him once this year, cut him some slack, it's all good.
I can`t believe nobody has said that you`re a fucking idiot, yet. 450 race first, therefor they have less torn up track which is huge deal on a sand track. Nice comparison.Dizzy Huh
ando
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8/12/2012 8:35pm
The implication in all this that many people will take away, rightly or wrongly, is that if you don't have a factory ride you won't get on the MXdN team.
speedman
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8/12/2012 8:54pm
Something in the RacerX repost of their 1998 recap of the first U.S. des Nations wins in 1981 made me think of the Alessi/MX3 situation: The U.S. knew going into the 250cc event at Lommel that Andre Vromans was going to be flying that year, unbeatable for the Euros too, so the team based its strategy on just letting Vromans go and packing the rest of the top 10 places to box out the nonsuperhuman remainder of the Dutch and Belgian sand specialists. Worked like a charm. The team manager that year was Roger DeCoster, of course.

So what do you think DeCoster intends to do about Jeffrey Herlings this year? And maybe Tony Cairoli too? And do you think Dungey and Barcia have demonstrated this year that they will back it down and let someone run off with the moto if that's the smart strategy overall?

Mike Alessi's strategy has always been to get the holeshot and let as few people by as possible, and he has made it work at every level of competition. But would MA800 make it work on DeCoster's terms as the MX3 rider this year? If he got the holeshot, would he let Herlings and Cairoli or other Euros by if they were clearly outrunning him, or would the world stage and the presence of Tony and the urge to keep the Motoconcepts bike in front of all the factories send him into classic WideBikeMike mode? Could he keep it on two wheels with Euros who don't like to play nice pressing him? And would MA800 let Dungey and Baggett by if they were obviously going faster?

Alessi would have been a terrific MX3 pick if he could be counted on to play that doorkeeper role for the sake of the team. But it's really asking a lot of him to go against his whole racing instinct and it might scuttle his confidence and cause his game to fall apart, when it's been working really well this summer. The U.S. is already putting Baggett in a hell of a spot by pretty much requiring him to beat every 250 but Herlings to be on the safe side, which is gonna be sheer grind-it-out-come-from-behind-at-nutso-speed-while-eating-roost-all-moto stuff, probably. Baggett, Tomac and Barcia have all shown they can do that this summer, but Baggett still has to execute it at Lommel. Maybe he can spot Searle one moto too, and van Hoerbeek the other, but Baggett's gotta aim high like that.

Dungey and Barcia have a better shot at coming in third thru first MX1 or MX3 in each moto, respectively, due to their record of better starts. They can both blaze toward the front all moto if needed, but more importantly, they can neutralize somebody in the overall picture by letting him go by instead of contesting him, holding everybody up, falling in the sand, etc. And I think that's where Barcia earned the pick by DeCoster. Blazing dominance (RD5-RV2-JS7) is one way to win, but obediently executing a smart team strategy like the first U.S. winners did also works.

I'd like to think that Mike Alessi would be happy to do that for his country, but like I said, it's contrary to what works for him as a racer at that top level. Of course I'm basing this whole thing on the assumption that DeCoster will repeat the 1981 Lommel strategy, but I doubt that he underestimates Herlings and Cairoli and some other Euros at Lommel.
seth505
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8/12/2012 8:57pm
musmanni wrote:
How far did Dungey pull Alessi after Alessi had the holeshot? At the MXDN, there would be 20 guys in between Dungey and Alessi with the...
How far did Dungey pull Alessi after Alessi had the holeshot? At the MXDN, there would be 20 guys in between Dungey and Alessi with the performance Alessi had. Do you guys think all the other teams would put up with Alessi's antics like Dungey does, or do you think they would punt him off the track on the first lap?
500guy wrote:
News Flash There is only one guy running in front of Alessi Here in the USA, I doubt there are 5 GP riders that could do...
News Flash

There is only one guy running in front of Alessi Here in the USA, I doubt there are 5 GP riders that could do it too.

You probably one of the clowns wearing a let J-law ride shirt while complaining Alessi is bad for the sport.

Mathes , I said twice in this thread I was wrong about the media coverage, I apologize for that comment
Very true, Mike is doing awesome and even won a moto under some really good pressure from the Dunge. But, he's not usually a "right behind the leader" 2nd place, Dungey normally walks away from Mike with ease. So just looking at results sheets doesn't tell the whole story. I think if the US was sending Alessi, Tomac or Barcia we would be in good shape but sending Barcia makes a lot of sense. No conspiracy, no "because someone isn't on a factory ride", etc.
bents
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Fantasy
8/12/2012 9:06pm
burnside wrote:
You reap what you sew. What else is there to say?
Exactly. I think Alessi is having an incredible year, but he has been the author of his own demise on this one, face it. Him and his dad haven't exactly built a great deal of good will over the years, and, as Ando so correctly pointed out, without factory support no one is getting on the MXON Team. This isn't Latvia. I also personally think Barcia is the best choice as he has factory Honda behind him as well as Jeff Stanton, and by all accounts he is listening to Stanton and doing his work. He rides the 450 incredibly well and will be as prepared as possible. He doesn't have to win the thing all by himself-no one can.
Kartwheel84c
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8/12/2012 9:09pm
We are debating a comparison between Barcia, Tomac, Baggett and Mike. some people keep saying how much faster those guys are than mike. I'm saying that...
We are debating a comparison between Barcia, Tomac, Baggett and Mike. some people keep saying how much faster those guys are than mike. I'm saying that If someone jumps off a 250 and on a 450 they may be slower, I put their average lap times up for both Motos this weekend and Mike was consistently faster than all. Check it out, I posted to show how folks dog him for nothing like you just did. Dang Man he is the only one to step up in the 450 class and challenge Dungey, Mike was in front of Dungey almost half a moto and he beat him once this year, cut him some slack, it's all good.
kongols wrote:
I can`t believe nobody has said that you`re a fucking idiot, yet. 450 race first, therefor they have less torn up track which is huge deal...
I can`t believe nobody has said that you`re a fucking idiot, yet. 450 race first, therefor they have less torn up track which is huge deal on a sand track. Nice comparison.Dizzy Huh
And as BobbyM showed, Barcia (and by extension Tomac and Baggett) has been consistently and sometimes significantly faster than Alessi especially in the second motos.
Dirtysmile56
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8/12/2012 9:27pm
BobbyM wrote:
yo jay..money talks...bullshit walks. that is EXACTLY why MC.AND TEAM ALESSI should be there. alessi has pride...AMERICAN PRIDE!! BARCIA would be lucky to know what state's...
yo jay..money talks...bullshit walks. that is EXACTLY why MC.AND TEAM ALESSI should be there.

alessi has pride...AMERICAN PRIDE!!


BARCIA would be lucky to know what state's the fucking whitehouse is in.
The White house isn't in a state, it's in a "District"
GuyB
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8/12/2012 9:36pm
Not for nothing, but it's not just Roger who selects the team.
Sandy Rutz
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8/12/2012 10:05pm
Sandy Rutz wrote:
Unfortunate, but true. Although. I don't think its by their own doing. They really don't have a choice. Which is probably why they get a little...
Unfortunate, but true. Although. I don't think its by their own doing. They really don't have a choice. Which is probably why they get a little pissed when people say they're industry puppets.
GuyB wrote:
Is that supposed to sting, coming from an anonymous member with a short and inglorious posting career? You haven't contributed anything worthwhile yet, and I'll be...
Is that supposed to sting, coming from an anonymous member with a short and inglorious posting career? You haven't contributed anything worthwhile yet, and I'll be shocked when you do. Smile
Are you insulting me for sticking up for the media.....? Aren't you a member of the media....? That's just weird.

I was sticking up for the media, saying its a small show and no one can upset the apple cart.
Rizzo
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8/12/2012 10:18pm
Has there ever been a privateer effort for MXdN? It's common knowledge that Factory Teams keep their bikes and secrets guarded. For this one event, those teams have to come together as one and coexist, often times sharing valuable information about bikes, setup, prep, training, riders, lines, etc. Given the cliques that exist in the industry, the dynamic of this event and the fact that MotoConcepts has had this FTW attitude towards Suzuki(MCR 450) and or the industry, is it possible that the "factory clique" did not want to allow an outsider/businessman (MC/Genova) into the guarded inner circle that is "core moto?" Look at the pedigree for the team, DeCoster, Payton, Pro Circuit, Kawasaki, Honda and the people that make up each entity....all respected seasoned vets in the industry, what do they get by letting a hot tub businessman into their inner circle?

No discredit to MC/Genova and their efforts, but regardless of his bank account, is this a show of force that no pocketbook in the industry could get their team into the MXdN without earning their respective wings? Do people really think this relatively new venture of a motocross team was going to get accepted into this historied brotherhood of moto, with open arms, not to mention with a supporting cast of Tony Alessi and Mike Alessi and a virtually unknown Genova? Even with DV managing and a past champion rider leading the team, this would be a stretch given the lack of factory effort-partnership-trust-reputation etc to accompany this team.

If Alessi was on a factory team would we be arguing this? What about a factory supported private team(JGR, JWR, 22, Rockstar Suzuki) would we be having this conversation???? What if he was riding for Coach Gibbs, highly respected, but in 2 different industries, is he respected at this level? Keep in mind, PC and Geico are not Factory Teams, but they sure as hell aren't privateer efforts, I'm just trying to establish the amount of industry respect/credibility PC and Geico or even Gibbs have earned over the years compared to MC. At the end of the day this isn't cut and dry Alessi vs Barcia and unfortunately, MA is left with the short stick.
speedman
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8/12/2012 10:19pm
GuyB wrote:
Not for nothing, but it's not just Roger who selects the team.
And would that be where the "factory ride" factor did matter, because Suzuki didn't back MA800 for the MX3 spot? At that point, I think DeCoster makes something like the argument I did, Suzuki & Yamaha say, "Fine, whatever," and the manufacturers with a stake remaining in the matter are happy so the AMA's happy. You don't have to affirm that scenario actively, some sort of loaded silence will do Smile .

If we could have sent this year's Mike Alessi to last year's MXdN, that's very possibly two MA800 moto wins if he's feeling halfway comfortable with everything.
40Plus_922mx
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8/12/2012 10:22pm
TeamGreen wrote:
500, I feel your frustration...namely in the intent of your support for the "Underdog"... Yet, and get this part down...WE are biased TOWARD the Underdog and...
500, I feel your frustration...namely in the intent of your support for the "Underdog"...

Yet, and get this part down...WE are biased TOWARD the Underdog and Roger is NOT: He's biased towards WINNING...Period.

Who's the Fastest rider to choose after we have top MX1 and MX2 picked? O.K. ...Roger DOES use logic here...

Lap-Times: Fastest Laps and how/do the lap-times "Fall-Off"...and...by how much and when?

Who can he get FACTORY LEVEL SUPPORT FOR? I'm going to go w/ my opinion that Roger has a very "Limitied View" of Who can provide that level of support. I'm guessing he can count the Teams that can do this on one hand (In the US). Again, Im speaking "Out-of-Turn" here; but, I've been around the Gentleman and he has a very Wise & Well-Founded Understanding of ALL of this.

Note: 5 teams, maybe, could give Roger a rider w/ support that he could "count-on". Remember, this is "The Man"...the same man that gave you virtually EVERY MXoN, MXdN, MXTdN title we have...Here's my thoughts on said list since you're gonna ask...

Factory KTM
Factory Kawsaki
Fatory Honda
Pro-Circuit
*Yoshimura Suzuki

*IF it had been JS7 & even then I get the feeling he'd do a little fact-checking...remember, there are a few Yellow-Bridges that're still smoldering in Roger's past. Fact-checking = Roger calling Japan, if necessary, and getting a "Direct-Connection-Commitment". Still, I'm jus' guessing.

It's virtually THAT Simple...

If Mike had been setting the World on Fire and was with-in "Hunting Range" of Ryan at the End of the Moto...every Saturday?

If Mike had been on the Top step of that Podium at some these races...?

Then, and I truly know this, then...

Roger would have FOUND a RIDE for Mike!

The Man wants to Win.

That's ALL there is to it.
Best words ever spoken on this forum right there.
GuyB
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8/12/2012 10:26pm
Sandy Rutz wrote:
Unfortunate, but true. Although. I don't think its by their own doing. They really don't have a choice. Which is probably why they get a little...
Unfortunate, but true. Although. I don't think its by their own doing. They really don't have a choice. Which is probably why they get a little pissed when people say they're industry puppets.
GuyB wrote:
Is that supposed to sting, coming from an anonymous member with a short and inglorious posting career? You haven't contributed anything worthwhile yet, and I'll be...
Is that supposed to sting, coming from an anonymous member with a short and inglorious posting career? You haven't contributed anything worthwhile yet, and I'll be shocked when you do. Smile
Sandy Rutz wrote:
Are you insulting me for sticking up for the media.....? Aren't you a member of the media....? That's just weird. I was sticking up for the...
Are you insulting me for sticking up for the media.....? Aren't you a member of the media....? That's just weird.

I was sticking up for the media, saying its a small show and no one can upset the apple cart.
I'm not sure how you were "sticking up for the media. As to your assertion, people always have choices. That's why I choose to think you sound a lot like someone who used to post here under another name. Smile
chrisbuehler
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8/12/2012 10:32pm
500guy wrote:
News Flash There is only one guy running in front of Alessi Here in the USA, I doubt there are 5 GP riders that could do...
News Flash

There is only one guy running in front of Alessi Here in the USA, I doubt there are 5 GP riders that could do it too.

You probably one of the clowns wearing a let J-law ride shirt while complaining Alessi is bad for the sport.

Mathes , I said twice in this thread I was wrong about the media coverage, I apologize for that comment
There isn't five GP riders who could beat Alessi? AC, Desalle, Pourcel, Palin. That's only four, I'm sure the Euro posters can throw in a couple more. Not sure why this is such a big deal. Barcia moved up to a 450 last year without much testing, I would imagine, and smoked Alessi every race
8/12/2012 11:14pm
It's really, incredibly hard to doubt the integrity and wisdom of Roger DeCoster but agree or disagree, it's all fine and makes for good debate. But what's done is done, and I'm all for supporting the riders that are going to represent the U.S.A.
jeffro503
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8/12/2012 11:18pm
It's really, incredibly hard to doubt the integrity and wisdom of Roger DeCoster but agree or disagree, it's all fine and makes for good debate. But...
It's really, incredibly hard to doubt the integrity and wisdom of Roger DeCoster but agree or disagree, it's all fine and makes for good debate. But what's done is done, and I'm all for supporting the riders that are going to represent the U.S.A.
Premix?
chrisbuehler
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8/12/2012 11:49pm
chilybil23 wrote:
What would the team have been like if RV was not injured and JS7 didn't get hurt? I know, alot of what if's but you just...
What would the team have been like if RV was not injured and JS7 didn't get hurt? I know, alot of what if's but you just know Dungey would have made the team through some odd combo of lap times/"consistent rider" talk. No way DeCoster would have allowed a team without his "boy"
Your entire premise is stupid but I will bite. Dungey has won at the Nations every time he's went like James, how many time has James won MX1? That would be none to the three RD has won. How many motos has James crashed out of at the race too?
pete24
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8/13/2012 4:36am
pete24 wrote:
did you guys win that year? if so then ill take your post under advisement
Matthes wrote:
We didn't win but RC was out of a crate inside a box truck (and won) and Ryno was pitted with factory KTM. It doesn't matter...
We didn't win but RC was out of a crate inside a box truck (and won) and Ryno was pitted with factory KTM. It doesn't matter what kind of European support you have in regards to whether someone should or shouldn't be picked. That's just a flimsy excuse.

You can believe someone who has been on the team and been behind the scenes at the last 7-8 events or you can hold firm to your opinion.
about a week ago i read on pulp that you guys lost and you were making fun of yourself for it, i was just trying to get a rise out of you, and having not been there my opinion doesnt count at all, and i do think Mike would do a good job, although we arent gonna do bad with who we are sending
slipdog
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8/13/2012 4:53am
It's really, incredibly hard to doubt the integrity and wisdom of Roger DeCoster but agree or disagree, it's all fine and makes for good debate. But...
It's really, incredibly hard to doubt the integrity and wisdom of Roger DeCoster but agree or disagree, it's all fine and makes for good debate. But what's done is done, and I'm all for supporting the riders that are going to represent the U.S.A.
jeffro503 wrote:
Premix?
f/k/a Rick Springfield
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c3011
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8/13/2012 5:34am
GuyB wrote:
Not for nothing, but it's not just Roger who selects the team.
I'm sure Mitch is another person with input on the team and its not like the Alessi's haven't gave him a headache or two with their games.
8/13/2012 5:40am
500guy wrote:
News Flash There is only one guy running in front of Alessi Here in the USA, I doubt there are 5 GP riders that could do...
News Flash

There is only one guy running in front of Alessi Here in the USA, I doubt there are 5 GP riders that could do it too.

You probably one of the clowns wearing a let J-law ride shirt while complaining Alessi is bad for the sport.

Mathes , I said twice in this thread I was wrong about the media coverage, I apologize for that comment
There isn't five GP riders who could beat Alessi? AC, Desalle, Pourcel, Palin. That's only four, I'm sure the Euro posters can throw in a couple...
There isn't five GP riders who could beat Alessi? AC, Desalle, Pourcel, Palin. That's only four, I'm sure the Euro posters can throw in a couple more. Not sure why this is such a big deal. Barcia moved up to a 450 last year without much testing, I would imagine, and smoked Alessi every race
I don't think it's a big deal. The underlying story is that there wasn't any other factory 450f rider other than Dungey to pick to represent the USA on a 450f. The only other 450f rider that was a possible choice was Alessi. If Alessi had a factory ride he would be part of the team.
musmanni
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8/13/2012 6:00am
musmanni wrote:
How far did Dungey pull Alessi after Alessi had the holeshot? At the MXDN, there would be 20 guys in between Dungey and Alessi with the...
How far did Dungey pull Alessi after Alessi had the holeshot? At the MXDN, there would be 20 guys in between Dungey and Alessi with the performance Alessi had. Do you guys think all the other teams would put up with Alessi's antics like Dungey does, or do you think they would punt him off the track on the first lap?
500guy wrote:
News Flash There is only one guy running in front of Alessi Here in the USA, I doubt there are 5 GP riders that could do...
News Flash

There is only one guy running in front of Alessi Here in the USA, I doubt there are 5 GP riders that could do it too.

You probably one of the clowns wearing a let J-law ride shirt while complaining Alessi is bad for the sport.

Mathes , I said twice in this thread I was wrong about the media coverage, I apologize for that comment
Most of the top 450 riders are hurt in the US, hence, Alessi gets decent results. The MXDN track is about the last track we would want to send Alessi to. I don't care about Alessi or J-Law, i just want the US to win the MXDN. Sending Alessi would seriously hinder that goal, actually, would most likely ensure a US loss.
8/13/2012 7:11am
I think we will win whether we send JB or MA. However I believe MA earned the position by being #2 in the premier class. You can argue that the fast guys are out but the field is what it is, "the premier class" and he's in 2nd. For sure the MA camp has burned a lot of bridges (maybe scorched earth approach) and that I believe that was a big part of it. I would like to know why MA hasn't even been asked to go as an alternate? Or did I miss that? Here's an interesting "what if", what if RD got hurt, would we send 3 250 riders? Do I think JB will do better? I don't know, maybe he'll get punted in the cheap seats for the incident in France. Maybe he'll kick ass. Would MA kill it? Probably not, but I believe he would have been a "solid rider", but we'll never know because camp MA has soured so many people that he would have to be wining the premier class to force them to ask him.
The other end of the argument is that Roger has had so much success that he deserves total autonomy to pick whoever, he has earned that. Roger has done exactly what we ask of him "pick a winning team". And with that, I think Roger's team (our team), will kick ass.
TM
DC
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8/13/2012 8:03am
Roger DeCoster has managed Team USA to, what, 22 wins? And he's done it with some pretty controversial line-ups....

Shouldn't we let The Man who knows the event better than anyone -- he won it and the Trophee des Nations, what, ten times as a rider with Team Belgium? -- and he has a very good idea of how the team will work together in the two weeks they will be over there (they are leaving the day after the Lake Elsinore National). That's a lot of time to be together, ride together, work together...

Everyone knows that Mike Alessi is one of the fastest 450 riders in the sport right now, but Roger knows what it takes to win this race, and on a specific track that he knows very well. I say we trust his decision and see how it all plays out.

DC
MX Sports
sc961
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8/13/2012 8:15am
Herb Brook quote - after being questioned on why he picked certain individuals for the 1980 Miracle team..

I don't want the best players Craig, I want the right ones...

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