Are mx race speeds too fast?

hellion
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8/6/2012 2:26pm
watson wrote:
I think our sport is dangerous, always has been, and always will be. Some people act like no-one got injured on older/slower tracks and on two...
I think our sport is dangerous, always has been, and always will be. Some people act like no-one got injured on older/slower tracks and on two strokes. It's like saying the world is ending because there were two more earthquakes than normal this year.
Nobody is saying that no-one got injured before. I also believe that the mass quantities of injuries to the sports biggest stars this year are somewhat of an abberation. But, overall you cannot argue that there are not more injuries now than before. A lot more. To not do something would be stupid. And like I said before faster bikes do not make the racing better. Having everybody on the gate makes it better.
motomike137
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8/6/2012 2:43pm
Its an old topic, but does it appear to anyone else that the mx nationals speeds are too fast? What happened to the rough and choppy...
Its an old topic, but does it appear to anyone else that the mx nationals speeds are too fast? What happened to the rough and choppy tracks that bred grueling battles? Nascar has a speed restriction maybe there should be a top speed restriction for mx for the safety of the riders? Those 1/4 inch hip pads dont cut it anymore............
What happened to the rough and choppy tracks? I don't know where you ride/spectate but Red Bud was plenty rough and choppy this year and I just rode an amateur race over the weekend here in Michigan where the track was rough as hell by the end of the day. I think the bikes have gotten so much better chassis wise, suspension wise, and powerband wise with the advent of the modern 4 stroke that it makes it somewhat easier for people to go fast on them. In my case I feel that my 450 makes me safer because of those things actually. I also think that if you go back over the last year and look at the crashes where many of the top guys got hurt that it didn't have much to do with raw speed. Track design and people going for it in close proximity to each other seem to have more to do with it imho.
Spinnin t's
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8/6/2012 3:28pm
It's good that we talk about this. It would be better if it was talked about more by tha AMA. I'm only 25 but being around the alot Of old schoolers it seems like way way more people raced mx back in day. 70's 80's and 90's. Not only did these f1 technology thumpers kill the sport with price and cost of maintenance I'm not sure the racing is better. Then the AMA labeled 250's "lights". Like those are the rookies or something. That killed 250 sponsorship from big out side sponsors. Although it is coming around now. #gettingbetter. Then the injury's. Those statistics don't look good to a mom and dad being begged for a dirt bike by there kid. AMA tech is the biggest joke I have ever seen. I remember my first national as a wrench in 2007 I was so nervous about tech. You could smell the not so legal gas that was in tank and that was going back in of-course... Privateers and some factory wrenches was throwing winks lol. AMA does not care. All tech is for is to kick a peg and grab a spoke the make sure you have the correct stickers and the hats-off device. So all they need to do is have a real tech and come up with a way to lower hp. Or more easy than that make the tracks slower. The biggest problem is the sport is so tight nitched. The need to hire educated or at least better people for the jobs of decision making instead of the old guys grand son or a old racer that hit his head so much all he is there for is for a check because there race money was spent too quick. Something can be done but no one in the position cares enough.
That's my spill I'm done now.
motomike137
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8/6/2012 3:58pm
It's good that we talk about this. It would be better if it was talked about more by tha AMA. I'm only 25 but being around...
It's good that we talk about this. It would be better if it was talked about more by tha AMA. I'm only 25 but being around the alot Of old schoolers it seems like way way more people raced mx back in day. 70's 80's and 90's. Not only did these f1 technology thumpers kill the sport with price and cost of maintenance I'm not sure the racing is better. Then the AMA labeled 250's "lights". Like those are the rookies or something. That killed 250 sponsorship from big out side sponsors. Although it is coming around now. #gettingbetter. Then the injury's. Those statistics don't look good to a mom and dad being begged for a dirt bike by there kid. AMA tech is the biggest joke I have ever seen. I remember my first national as a wrench in 2007 I was so nervous about tech. You could smell the not so legal gas that was in tank and that was going back in of-course... Privateers and some factory wrenches was throwing winks lol. AMA does not care. All tech is for is to kick a peg and grab a spoke the make sure you have the correct stickers and the hats-off device. So all they need to do is have a real tech and come up with a way to lower hp. Or more easy than that make the tracks slower. The biggest problem is the sport is so tight nitched. The need to hire educated or at least better people for the jobs of decision making instead of the old guys grand son or a old racer that hit his head so much all he is there for is for a check because there race money was spent too quick. Something can be done but no one in the position cares enough.
That's my spill I'm done now.
I think some of what you say is correct but I think that in relative dollars even todays bikes aren't that expensive. I think the bigger issue is the economy and lack of good paying entry level jobs, lack of places to ride casually and many more choices of activities for younger people these days.

The Shop

Moto Soul Mag
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8/6/2012 4:16pm
You can't put toothpaste back in the tube. Once it;s out, it's out.
takitimu
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8/6/2012 4:43pm Edited Date/Time 8/6/2012 5:34pm
How much is due to the obsession with jumps vs corners, take for instance Englishtown where alot of corners were removed so more jumps could be created.

Personally I think the genie is out of the bottle in terms of bike performance/handling so the change will have to come from tightening up the tracks and maybe looking at CC ratings.

Given the 250/lites class has become the defacto premier class, maybe 150cc 2/ or 200c 4/ in the lites, 250cc 2/ or 300cc 4/ in the main.
Toste
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8/6/2012 4:50pm Edited Date/Time 8/6/2012 4:54pm
I don't know if outdoor MX has really changed that much speed-wise in recent years. I have been watching a lot of MXdN races from the '90s lately. Those guys were hauling some serious ass even back then. Check out Tortelli's crash at the '99 race if you want to get an idea of the speeds they were carrying in those days.

Supercross is a different deal. Some changes are definitely in order there.
twizzler
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8/6/2012 4:57pm
I heard that they are making the SX tracks faster for 2013. Don't know if it's true, but it came from a top 20 SX/MX racer.
jleews6
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8/6/2012 8:18pm
hellion wrote:
Of course they are, to argue otherwise you must have your head in the sand. All across the sport major injuries are way up. Even our...
Of course they are, to argue otherwise you must have your head in the sand. All across the sport major injuries are way up. Even our top ranked riders don't seem to be able to safely race 450's as the majority of the top ten are out with injury. 250f's are easily as fast as the 250 two strokes of ten or fifteen years ago, and that's supposed to be a beginners class bike size?
Back in the day, Open bikes were super fast too. But they were so sketchy to ride that nobody dared take them to the ragged edge. With 450's that edge is camoflaged in a great handling chassis, great suspension and smooth power. Often a rider is beyond his limits without knowing it.
Beyond all that though, what was wrong with the 125? Sure riders could ride them pinned. Sure they were slower. But going fast on one was an art form, an art form that our sport needs.
More power doesn't equal better racing, in fact it does the opposite when the gates are depleted with injury.
I agree with this 100% but I also think that the level of competition is so high that these guy's are always on the edge just to have that little bit over the next guy. I see this even at the amature level. I don't remember riding like these kids do today and the riding is so technical that it seems easier to make a mistake.
4mxonly
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8/6/2012 8:39pm
hellion wrote:
Of course they are, to argue otherwise you must have your head in the sand. All across the sport major injuries are way up. Even our...
Of course they are, to argue otherwise you must have your head in the sand. All across the sport major injuries are way up. Even our top ranked riders don't seem to be able to safely race 450's as the majority of the top ten are out with injury. 250f's are easily as fast as the 250 two strokes of ten or fifteen years ago, and that's supposed to be a beginners class bike size?
Back in the day, Open bikes were super fast too. But they were so sketchy to ride that nobody dared take them to the ragged edge. With 450's that edge is camoflaged in a great handling chassis, great suspension and smooth power. Often a rider is beyond his limits without knowing it.
Beyond all that though, what was wrong with the 125? Sure riders could ride them pinned. Sure they were slower. But going fast on one was an art form, an art form that our sport needs.
More power doesn't equal better racing, in fact it does the opposite when the gates are depleted with injury.
Sandberm wrote:
Very well said.
This.
Tbteam
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8/6/2012 8:47pm
The 450's are definitely too fast...

In America. Not so much in the GP's Whistling
Hank_Thrill
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8/6/2012 8:55pm Edited Date/Time 8/6/2012 9:05pm
JW381 wrote:
I think the tracks are a bigger problem than the bikes. Yes, they're faster, but it doesn't help when the track makers make thins smoother, longer...
I think the tracks are a bigger problem than the bikes. Yes, they're faster, but it doesn't help when the track makers make thins smoother, longer and faster.
The tracks are not the problem. You can have the smoothest longest fastest track imaginable (or conversely, the roughest, gnarliest track, with the biggest jumps) that is way safer to race on anything pros race today if everyone were running 125cc four stroke pit bikes.

The bikes are what allows for extremely fast speeds, the bikes are what allows 100 foot leaps with the blip of the throttle, etc. - not the tracks. What's insane is what little power the 450's actually use going around a supercross track. Watching K-Dub jump a berm and blip the throttle before flying 120 feet in Arlington, Texas this year really put things in perspective.
4mxonly
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8/6/2012 9:05pm
You can't put toothpaste back in the tube. Once it;s out, it's out.
It's funny how much pride-driven tension is created when top industry insiders defend the 4-stroke. They say that "this is the future of motocross", and talk about how much more advanced the motorcycles are. They use this as a universal truth for why motocross is somehow "better" than it was before 4-stroke mania hit at the turn of the millenia. However, it's that blind pride that has most people overlooking the bigger picture, and how the motocross pie is only a fraction of what it used to be. It reminds me of an old business fable:

A group of people are slashing through brush in the middle of a jungle trying to get out. After some time, they look back and see that they've made significant progress--slashing through miles of thick brush. However, it isn't until one of the people in the group climbs up a tree, high into the canopy, to see that they've made a boat load of progress deeper into the jungle... furthering themselves from their goal of getting back to civilization.

Progress in 4-stroke motorcycle technology doesn't necessarily translate into growth for the motocross market at large. In fact, many may argue--as evidenced in this thread and countless other like it--that while the technology "advancements" are shiny and new at first glance, they may be hurting motocross rather than helping it. No matter how people try to spin the obvious increase in frequency and severity of injuries in motocross, the evidence is disturbingly obvious to the tenured and passionate motocross public. It's a shame that pride and a lack of perspective on the bigger picture (i.e. the sustainability of a healthy motocross racing market) has contributed to the slow death of this sport as we know it.
dboivin
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8/6/2012 9:31pm
would love to see lites a 250f stock class for supercross and mx class go 250-300 mod class. be just as exciting and they will have to use the berms for once to do a triple.

ever notice the supercrosses are 1 line now because the 450's create inside ruts to every jump...they don't need a run up...they just burp the face and they go 110ft. its ridiculous.

i think the arenacross was on to something when they cut the 450's out last year....i know its way tighter but its just what has to happen indoors.
Derpin' DJ
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8/6/2012 9:43pm
450's need to go in SX. Outdoors, they are fine. The bulk of the injuries in the last few years are from SX.

450's can produce great racing. The MX1 class has been great to watch this year in the GP's. The euro tracks have something to do with that IMO.
CR250Rider
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8/6/2012 10:11pm
but if you make the tracks rough and technical, the dreaded and feared 2 stroke will dominate once again.

thats a business model the jap 4 dont want, so it will never happen
Spinnin t's
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8/6/2012 10:40pm
You can't put toothpaste back in the tube. Once it;s out, it's out.
4mxonly wrote:
It's funny how much pride-driven tension is created when top industry insiders defend the 4-stroke. They say that "this is the future of motocross", and talk...
It's funny how much pride-driven tension is created when top industry insiders defend the 4-stroke. They say that "this is the future of motocross", and talk about how much more advanced the motorcycles are. They use this as a universal truth for why motocross is somehow "better" than it was before 4-stroke mania hit at the turn of the millenia. However, it's that blind pride that has most people overlooking the bigger picture, and how the motocross pie is only a fraction of what it used to be. It reminds me of an old business fable:

A group of people are slashing through brush in the middle of a jungle trying to get out. After some time, they look back and see that they've made significant progress--slashing through miles of thick brush. However, it isn't until one of the people in the group climbs up a tree, high into the canopy, to see that they've made a boat load of progress deeper into the jungle... furthering themselves from their goal of getting back to civilization.

Progress in 4-stroke motorcycle technology doesn't necessarily translate into growth for the motocross market at large. In fact, many may argue--as evidenced in this thread and countless other like it--that while the technology "advancements" are shiny and new at first glance, they may be hurting motocross rather than helping it. No matter how people try to spin the obvious increase in frequency and severity of injuries in motocross, the evidence is disturbingly obvious to the tenured and passionate motocross public. It's a shame that pride and a lack of perspective on the bigger picture (i.e. the sustainability of a healthy motocross racing market) has contributed to the slow death of this sport as we know it.
The problem is the proes are getting first step money for final step racing. They are at the top of the sport getting hardly no pay back. This does not include the few guys making millions of-course. If the sport was more accessible to people like in the past decades there would be more money. Used to it was a mid class motorsport now it's a upper mid class at the minimum sport. My blame is the AMA poor decision making to progress the sport. If you go to a national to watch you can't see squat. So that's big bucks there. If the tracks was better the spectator view would be better. They want a little money now instead of ALOT of money later.
chrisbuehler
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8/6/2012 11:01pm
What the races are you people watching? The tracks are rough as shit and that's from a tv spectators perspective. Shit annoys the fuck out of me. Every since the debacle of touching up the tracks in 2007 and 2008 ( maybe 2009 I forget ) people keep saying the tracks are smooth. It's just not the truth
Spinnin t's
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8/6/2012 11:09pm
No the tracks are not smooth at all. Rc was never smooth. Nothing about his riding looked easy. It's sketchy looking at any rider. But the tracks are or the bikes are too fast. big jumps are good it's the mile long straights that make riders scrub those big jump that are causing some problems.
8/6/2012 11:50pm
Only if you're too slow to keep up.
Dno
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8/7/2012 12:50am
mx - no

sx - yes
sam111
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8/7/2012 2:09am
watson wrote:
I think our sport is dangerous, always has been, and always will be. Some people act like no-one got injured on older/slower tracks and on two...
I think our sport is dangerous, always has been, and always will be. Some people act like no-one got injured on older/slower tracks and on two strokes. It's like saying the world is ending because there were two more earthquakes than normal this year.
I agree with this to a certain extent. A lot of guys on this board will use any argument they come across to promote the two stroke cause.

There has been a lot of pro's injured this year, but it is hard to say whether this is a trend or just an unlucky coincidence.

I think there has to be a physical limit to how fast a dirt bike can be ridden around a motocross track. As the riders approach this limit, the stakes are getting higher and this may (or may not) be contributing to higher injury numbers.

Unsurprisingly, a lot of posters have blamed this on the introduction of 4-strokes. Although they have undoubtedly allowed riders to go faster, today's pro's are also better riders due to continued progression and increased competitiveness throughout the sport.

Slowing the tracks down and/or restricting the performance of the bikes might help, but who really knows? Everyone will still push the limits in order to gain an advantage over their rivals. Motocross will always be dangerous.
SwapperMX
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8/7/2012 3:00am
Some interesting comments in this thread, some i agree with, some i dont. I certainly think the engine capacities need to be reduced. I dont think you can slow the tracks down and achieve what most who suggest that want. Ask any racer, If you tighten up, or slow down a track, the very first thing you hear, guaranteed, is "Its one lined, and you cant pass." That is exactly why the tracks have been opened up. To keep punters like us glued to the teles, and turning up to the races and paying our gate fee to watch exciting racing. No good watching conga lines like we do in the supercross for the most part. The supercross tracks have massive room for improvement in track design, ie, just replicate the tracks from the mid to late 90's and early 2000's. As for the outdoors, I think the tracks are great the way they are, but the bikes are way too fast. Purely capacity related. Two stroke v four stroke aside, lower the capacity and have no limits on how many strokes your motor takes to fire. Or bring forward and start the electric bike classes, cos otherwise things will only get worse.

As for the injury thing, having been in the sport for over 15 years now, and worked in the moto industry for a lot of that time, the injuries these days are much, much worse now than ever before. Thats not from hearing about injuries on the internet or through media like so many claim on this website, that is from speaking with many people within the sport, and my group of friends. Breaking a collarbone used to be considered a bad injury, and would make you realise what could happen when you go riding. These days, a broken bone is so common, that it takes something like hearing about a rider on life support for you to come to the same relisation.
jock
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8/7/2012 3:02am
twizzler wrote:
I heard that they are making the SX tracks faster for 2013. Don't know if it's true, but it came from a top 20 SX/MX racer.
Damn, down to 30 second lap times? Laughing
Derpin' DJ
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8/7/2012 3:12am Edited Date/Time 8/7/2012 3:12am
Considering that you have 250F's pulling the same laptimes as the 450 riders, I don't see how people could attribute the injuries to bike capacity (in MX that is). If anything, it's the rest of the bike that has allowed the riders to push harder and go faster.

Go back through the MX results of the past couple of years. Not many have had a season ending injury outdoors. When they have, is it even a result of going too fast?

SX is a different scenario. The 450's allow difficult rhythms to be taken too easily, and when things go wrong, it can get pretty bad. But even then, how many of the injuries were a result of going too fast?
mxgeoff
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8/7/2012 4:01am
Its an old topic, but does it appear to anyone else that the mx nationals speeds are too fast? What happened to the rough and choppy...
Its an old topic, but does it appear to anyone else that the mx nationals speeds are too fast? What happened to the rough and choppy tracks that bred grueling battles? Nascar has a speed restriction maybe there should be a top speed restriction for mx for the safety of the riders? Those 1/4 inch hip pads dont cut it anymore............
Watching the races on television it's frightening. Mind you not too many riders are getting injured from the Nationals, so that answers your question a little. Now Supercross, that is another story.....................
Crush
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8/7/2012 4:02am
SlowMoFo
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8/7/2012 5:47am
Its an old topic, but does it appear to anyone else that the mx nationals speeds are too fast? What happened to the rough and choppy...
Its an old topic, but does it appear to anyone else that the mx nationals speeds are too fast? What happened to the rough and choppy tracks that bred grueling battles? Nascar has a speed restriction maybe there should be a top speed restriction for mx for the safety of the riders? Those 1/4 inch hip pads dont cut it anymore............
8/7/2012 5:56am
it would be a good idea to require riders under 16 or 17 to start on 2 stroke 125s. The 2t are easier to ride than 4t. They could build up some skills before moving on to the heavier bikes.

The basic problem with engine restrictions (rpm, comression limits) is that it cannot be enforced at the amateur level. If the ama can't tear down 20 motors per week, how can mom and pop tracks manage it?
With all due respect, us s/x is the best in the world, the ama is too busy holding hands with HD to do anything about supercross.
bvm111
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8/7/2012 6:45am Edited Date/Time 8/7/2012 6:46am
isnt the whole point of racing to go as fast as possible? How do you have a slow race... enlighten me!

And this constant argument about 125/250f being as fast as 250/450f... its always been that way since they have to keeptheir momentum up in the corners this isnt new to the 4 stroke if you dont believe me ask Dave Thorpe who was a 500cc rider how it felt to have Jonny O pass him on a 125 in the MXDN!

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