Bench Racing | WSX Canadian GP Night Show

M1000
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9 hours ago
DownSouth wrote:

Uh oh. We got tough blocks rolling around like tumbleweeds in the wind.

Elliot wrote:

The tough blocks were moving around the track so fast I'm surprised one didn't make the podium.

The were awesome variable the WSX installed in 2026 series. Hope all races have the attacking monster energy tuff bales. They change lines on the track every lap, you might be taken out by attacking monster energy tuff blocks. Plus the spectators are all laughing, because it’s hilarious. Definitely keep the moving tuff blocks. 👍🏁

3
Jettsonator
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8 hours ago

WSX is kinda shit. 

1
12
Shred
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8 hours ago
KurtJ99 wrote:

Coop wears goggles with helmet off. 

Eli does this too some.  Dirt and pollen in dirt stirred up hits eyes bad if you have any allergies…along with smoke and fumes.  I about die at supercross races, but still can’t do the goggle thing….

Shred
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8 hours ago

I gotta say it….If Joey is back for round 2…Deano should be on Craig’s bike.  Deano is good in that format.  CC never looked comfortable.

1

The Shop

truck
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7 hours ago
truck wrote:
Stark set themselves back years at this race. Clear advantage, missed on the setting to make it fair, proved that the degree of performance advantage and...

Stark set themselves back years at this race. Clear advantage, missed on the setting to make it fair, proved that the degree of performance advantage and therefore what it takes to correct for it varies too much track to track and is dependent on too many factors. It got harder to argue that it's going to be possible to fairly race them with ICE bikes tonight. Not going to be worth the effort for everyone else to try to accommodate this. 

M1000 wrote:
I was impressed with stark motorcycles. Holeshot all 250, 450 moto ( except one in 450). Led 50% each 250 race. Finally reeled in last half...

I was impressed with stark motorcycles. Holeshot all 250, 450 moto ( except one in 450). Led 50% each 250 race. Finally reeled in last half race by the champ in 250 class. The stark bike could do it all. Only hiccup is in the whoop sections. Not sure if it’s suspension issue, or acceleration issue. They had difficulty skimming the whoops like max antsie was doing in the whoops. Everywhere else the electric bike shone. I was impressed. Congrats stark. I will be looking at my next purchase of stark in 2027.

I'm not knocking the bike, it's just too different to ever think you're going to have a consistently level playing field that makes racing in the same professional classes as ICE bikes practical. In amateur classes where the bike has next to nothing to do with finishing order and classes are defined by age and skill level, sure, run whatever you want. 

This has nothing to do with participation trophies or any other nonsense. Pro classes are defined by displacement. Keeping a bike out of the class that can't be defined by displacement isn't that big of a reach. The only one asking for everyone else to adapt so they can participate is Stark. 

1
Juck
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7 hours ago
Shred wrote:

I gotta say it….If Joey is back for round 2…Deano should be on Craig’s bike.  Deano is good in that format.  CC never looked comfortable.

Was thinking the same thing when I was watching the race. Probably not gonna happen unless Craig wants it to go that way though.

jambalaya
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7 hours ago

Was Anderson that bad or did he just have issues?

M1000
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6 hours ago
jambalaya wrote:

Was Anderson that bad or did he just have issues?

He crashed in first moto. Second moto he had less stellar start. But charged to fourth. Then he was passed by hill. Seemed to take mojo out of Anderson. 

6 hours ago Edited Date/Time 6 hours ago
jambalaya wrote:

Was Anderson that bad or did he just have issues?

He looks over weight and out of shape to me.

edit to say:

He probably took time off to get well from his thyroid issue then planned to start training again right before Mammoth. Then he crashed and knocked himself out at Mammoth? Which meant more time off not training and here we stand. I imagine, if he is motivated, he will hit it hard over the next 2 months before the next race. 

Village Idiot
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5 hours ago
truck wrote:
Stark set themselves back years at this race. Clear advantage, missed on the setting to make it fair, proved that the degree of performance advantage and...

Stark set themselves back years at this race. Clear advantage, missed on the setting to make it fair, proved that the degree of performance advantage and therefore what it takes to correct for it varies too much track to track and is dependent on too many factors. It got harder to argue that it's going to be possible to fairly race them with ICE bikes tonight. Not going to be worth the effort for everyone else to try to accommodate this. 

M1000 wrote:
I was impressed with stark motorcycles. Holeshot all 250, 450 moto ( except one in 450). Led 50% each 250 race. Finally reeled in last half...

I was impressed with stark motorcycles. Holeshot all 250, 450 moto ( except one in 450). Led 50% each 250 race. Finally reeled in last half race by the champ in 250 class. The stark bike could do it all. Only hiccup is in the whoop sections. Not sure if it’s suspension issue, or acceleration issue. They had difficulty skimming the whoops like max antsie was doing in the whoops. Everywhere else the electric bike shone. I was impressed. Congrats stark. I will be looking at my next purchase of stark in 2027.

truck wrote:
I'm not knocking the bike, it's just too different to ever think you're going to have a consistently level playing field that makes racing in the...

I'm not knocking the bike, it's just too different to ever think you're going to have a consistently level playing field that makes racing in the same professional classes as ICE bikes practical. In amateur classes where the bike has next to nothing to do with finishing order and classes are defined by age and skill level, sure, run whatever you want. 

This has nothing to do with participation trophies or any other nonsense. Pro classes are defined by displacement. Keeping a bike out of the class that can't be defined by displacement isn't that big of a reach. The only one asking for everyone else to adapt so they can participate is Stark. 

Racing is supposed to determine who is the better rider, not which vehicle platform is most advantageous on a circuit. The platforms should have the same base in a class - equal displacements, same combustion type, etc. Once they mix platforms and try to "balance" the differences, you get subjectivity in the equation and it never works - living proof is the 3 decade-long "failure of concept" fiasco called the 450 4T/250 2T class. They subjectively weighted the scale to favor one platform and the result was the premeditated extinction of a class.

Since these "rules" are not dictated by a force of nature but by rulemakers in organizations, I wonder how long we'd see people trying to race e-bikes against 450cc ICE bikes if they were limited to no more than twelve AAA batteries and couldn't weigh more than 150 lbs? Too much of a handicap? Says who? What determines "equality"?

The real answer is that all the stupidity can be avoided by not mixing platforms and letting the better rider be determined by skill, not an arbitrarily chosen advantage. 2T fans could pick what they want, 4T riders do the same as well as e-bike fans. Let the market decide what is popular, not a rigged system.

6
Juck
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5 hours ago
M1000 wrote:
I was impressed with stark motorcycles. Holeshot all 250, 450 moto ( except one in 450). Led 50% each 250 race. Finally reeled in last half...

I was impressed with stark motorcycles. Holeshot all 250, 450 moto ( except one in 450). Led 50% each 250 race. Finally reeled in last half race by the champ in 250 class. The stark bike could do it all. Only hiccup is in the whoop sections. Not sure if it’s suspension issue, or acceleration issue. They had difficulty skimming the whoops like max antsie was doing in the whoops. Everywhere else the electric bike shone. I was impressed. Congrats stark. I will be looking at my next purchase of stark in 2027.

truck wrote:
I'm not knocking the bike, it's just too different to ever think you're going to have a consistently level playing field that makes racing in the...

I'm not knocking the bike, it's just too different to ever think you're going to have a consistently level playing field that makes racing in the same professional classes as ICE bikes practical. In amateur classes where the bike has next to nothing to do with finishing order and classes are defined by age and skill level, sure, run whatever you want. 

This has nothing to do with participation trophies or any other nonsense. Pro classes are defined by displacement. Keeping a bike out of the class that can't be defined by displacement isn't that big of a reach. The only one asking for everyone else to adapt so they can participate is Stark. 

Racing is supposed to determine who is the better rider, not which vehicle platform is most advantageous on a circuit. The platforms should have the same...

Racing is supposed to determine who is the better rider, not which vehicle platform is most advantageous on a circuit. The platforms should have the same base in a class - equal displacements, same combustion type, etc. Once they mix platforms and try to "balance" the differences, you get subjectivity in the equation and it never works - living proof is the 3 decade-long "failure of concept" fiasco called the 450 4T/250 2T class. They subjectively weighted the scale to favor one platform and the result was the premeditated extinction of a class.

Since these "rules" are not dictated by a force of nature but by rulemakers in organizations, I wonder how long we'd see people trying to race e-bikes against 450cc ICE bikes if they were limited to no more than twelve AAA batteries and couldn't weigh more than 150 lbs? Too much of a handicap? Says who? What determines "equality"?

The real answer is that all the stupidity can be avoided by not mixing platforms and letting the better rider be determined by skill, not an arbitrarily chosen advantage. 2T fans could pick what they want, 4T riders do the same as well as e-bike fans. Let the market decide what is popular, not a rigged system.

Or, alternatively, remove the restrictions if you want a level playing field and just accept that some bikes are better than others. 

I highly doubt a Stark with no HP restrictions is more of an advantage over the other bikes than a factory bike is over a stock or maybe even privateer bike.

4
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DonM
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5 hours ago

Can someone explain to me why the last race was thrown out? they completed more than the 51% that the FIM rules call for a race to be complete and the points paid out for the last completed lap....🤷‍♂️ 

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Village Idiot
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4 hours ago
truck wrote:
I'm not knocking the bike, it's just too different to ever think you're going to have a consistently level playing field that makes racing in the...

I'm not knocking the bike, it's just too different to ever think you're going to have a consistently level playing field that makes racing in the same professional classes as ICE bikes practical. In amateur classes where the bike has next to nothing to do with finishing order and classes are defined by age and skill level, sure, run whatever you want. 

This has nothing to do with participation trophies or any other nonsense. Pro classes are defined by displacement. Keeping a bike out of the class that can't be defined by displacement isn't that big of a reach. The only one asking for everyone else to adapt so they can participate is Stark. 

Racing is supposed to determine who is the better rider, not which vehicle platform is most advantageous on a circuit. The platforms should have the same...

Racing is supposed to determine who is the better rider, not which vehicle platform is most advantageous on a circuit. The platforms should have the same base in a class - equal displacements, same combustion type, etc. Once they mix platforms and try to "balance" the differences, you get subjectivity in the equation and it never works - living proof is the 3 decade-long "failure of concept" fiasco called the 450 4T/250 2T class. They subjectively weighted the scale to favor one platform and the result was the premeditated extinction of a class.

Since these "rules" are not dictated by a force of nature but by rulemakers in organizations, I wonder how long we'd see people trying to race e-bikes against 450cc ICE bikes if they were limited to no more than twelve AAA batteries and couldn't weigh more than 150 lbs? Too much of a handicap? Says who? What determines "equality"?

The real answer is that all the stupidity can be avoided by not mixing platforms and letting the better rider be determined by skill, not an arbitrarily chosen advantage. 2T fans could pick what they want, 4T riders do the same as well as e-bike fans. Let the market decide what is popular, not a rigged system.

Juck wrote:
Or, alternatively, remove the restrictions if you want a level playing field and just accept that some bikes are better than others. I highly doubt a Stark...

Or, alternatively, remove the restrictions if you want a level playing field and just accept that some bikes are better than others. 

I highly doubt a Stark with no HP restrictions is more of an advantage over the other bikes than a factory bike is over a stock or maybe even privateer bike.

I disagree on removing all restrictions - that would likely lead to a single platform scenario. You can have an "open" class where anything goes, but I still believe in classes to allow riders to choose what best suits them.

Again, what is the goal? To determine which platform is most advantageous under certain conditions or who the best rider is on the circuit? All my life the purpose of a race was to determine the latter. 

1
4 hours ago

Only thing disappointing was the crowd for me. All the other stark stuff or race ending early is just whatever. 

4
Village Idiot
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4 hours ago
DonM wrote:
Can someone explain to me why the last race was thrown out? they completed more than the 51% that the FIM rules call for a race...

Can someone explain to me why the last race was thrown out? they completed more than the 51% that the FIM rules call for a race to be complete and the points paid out for the last completed lap....🤷‍♂️ 

Yeah, no, for sure... 🤔

But don't fret, at the next round they'll award points for a 4th moto in SX1 that wasn't run and no one got to see... because it makes as much sense as pretending moto 3 never happened in Calgary. 😄

1
Juck
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4 hours ago
Racing is supposed to determine who is the better rider, not which vehicle platform is most advantageous on a circuit. The platforms should have the same...

Racing is supposed to determine who is the better rider, not which vehicle platform is most advantageous on a circuit. The platforms should have the same base in a class - equal displacements, same combustion type, etc. Once they mix platforms and try to "balance" the differences, you get subjectivity in the equation and it never works - living proof is the 3 decade-long "failure of concept" fiasco called the 450 4T/250 2T class. They subjectively weighted the scale to favor one platform and the result was the premeditated extinction of a class.

Since these "rules" are not dictated by a force of nature but by rulemakers in organizations, I wonder how long we'd see people trying to race e-bikes against 450cc ICE bikes if they were limited to no more than twelve AAA batteries and couldn't weigh more than 150 lbs? Too much of a handicap? Says who? What determines "equality"?

The real answer is that all the stupidity can be avoided by not mixing platforms and letting the better rider be determined by skill, not an arbitrarily chosen advantage. 2T fans could pick what they want, 4T riders do the same as well as e-bike fans. Let the market decide what is popular, not a rigged system.

Juck wrote:
Or, alternatively, remove the restrictions if you want a level playing field and just accept that some bikes are better than others. I highly doubt a Stark...

Or, alternatively, remove the restrictions if you want a level playing field and just accept that some bikes are better than others. 

I highly doubt a Stark with no HP restrictions is more of an advantage over the other bikes than a factory bike is over a stock or maybe even privateer bike.

I disagree on removing all restrictions - that would likely lead to a single platform scenario. You can have an "open" class where anything goes, but...

I disagree on removing all restrictions - that would likely lead to a single platform scenario. You can have an "open" class where anything goes, but I still believe in classes to allow riders to choose what best suits them.

Again, what is the goal? To determine which platform is most advantageous under certain conditions or who the best rider is on the circuit? All my life the purpose of a race was to determine the latter. 

It seems to me that we both think it's about balance, but disagree about where it lies. 

If you're allowing different bikes with different mods to compete against each other in a class, then it is practically impossible to make them equal, regardless of displacement. So in that case the proper thing to do would be to force each manufacturer to race in their own class on stock bikes, but that is impractical so it won't happen.

My gripe is that if you create an electric class, you are essentially singling Stark out by forcing them to compete in their own class as there are no other competitive electric motocross bikes currently. 

If the Starks do prove to be an advantage, then there's nothing stopping anyone from racing them over an ICE bike. 

My opinion is unpopular due to most motocross fans' disdain for electric bikes, but I'm not attached to any piece of technology and just want to see the best riders racing the best bikes. If the best bikes happen to be electric, then that's what I want to see. If not, then there's even less of a reason to keep them out of competition.

1
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truck
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4 hours ago
Juck wrote:
Or, alternatively, remove the restrictions if you want a level playing field and just accept that some bikes are better than others. I highly doubt a Stark...

Or, alternatively, remove the restrictions if you want a level playing field and just accept that some bikes are better than others. 

I highly doubt a Stark with no HP restrictions is more of an advantage over the other bikes than a factory bike is over a stock or maybe even privateer bike.

I disagree on removing all restrictions - that would likely lead to a single platform scenario. You can have an "open" class where anything goes, but...

I disagree on removing all restrictions - that would likely lead to a single platform scenario. You can have an "open" class where anything goes, but I still believe in classes to allow riders to choose what best suits them.

Again, what is the goal? To determine which platform is most advantageous under certain conditions or who the best rider is on the circuit? All my life the purpose of a race was to determine the latter. 

Juck wrote:
It seems to me that we both think it's about balance, but disagree about where it lies. If you're allowing different bikes with different mods to compete...

It seems to me that we both think it's about balance, but disagree about where it lies. 

If you're allowing different bikes with different mods to compete against each other in a class, then it is practically impossible to make them equal, regardless of displacement. So in that case the proper thing to do would be to force each manufacturer to race in their own class on stock bikes, but that is impractical so it won't happen.

My gripe is that if you create an electric class, you are essentially singling Stark out by forcing them to compete in their own class as there are no other competitive electric motocross bikes currently. 

If the Starks do prove to be an advantage, then there's nothing stopping anyone from racing them over an ICE bike. 

My opinion is unpopular due to most motocross fans' disdain for electric bikes, but I'm not attached to any piece of technology and just want to see the best riders racing the best bikes. If the best bikes happen to be electric, then that's what I want to see. If not, then there's even less of a reason to keep them out of competition.

The different bikes with different mods thing is by choice though, not because they're running fundamentally different bikes that cannot be modified in similar ways as the others. Anyone can have the essentially the same stuff with enough $$$.

As far as singling Stark out, they did that to themselves. That's their business model. They aren't entitled to have rules changed to accommodate them just because that's what they want to happen. 

Village Idiot
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4 hours ago
Juck wrote:
Or, alternatively, remove the restrictions if you want a level playing field and just accept that some bikes are better than others. I highly doubt a Stark...

Or, alternatively, remove the restrictions if you want a level playing field and just accept that some bikes are better than others. 

I highly doubt a Stark with no HP restrictions is more of an advantage over the other bikes than a factory bike is over a stock or maybe even privateer bike.

I disagree on removing all restrictions - that would likely lead to a single platform scenario. You can have an "open" class where anything goes, but...

I disagree on removing all restrictions - that would likely lead to a single platform scenario. You can have an "open" class where anything goes, but I still believe in classes to allow riders to choose what best suits them.

Again, what is the goal? To determine which platform is most advantageous under certain conditions or who the best rider is on the circuit? All my life the purpose of a race was to determine the latter. 

Juck wrote:
It seems to me that we both think it's about balance, but disagree about where it lies. If you're allowing different bikes with different mods to compete...

It seems to me that we both think it's about balance, but disagree about where it lies. 

If you're allowing different bikes with different mods to compete against each other in a class, then it is practically impossible to make them equal, regardless of displacement. So in that case the proper thing to do would be to force each manufacturer to race in their own class on stock bikes, but that is impractical so it won't happen.

My gripe is that if you create an electric class, you are essentially singling Stark out by forcing them to compete in their own class as there are no other competitive electric motocross bikes currently. 

If the Starks do prove to be an advantage, then there's nothing stopping anyone from racing them over an ICE bike. 

My opinion is unpopular due to most motocross fans' disdain for electric bikes, but I'm not attached to any piece of technology and just want to see the best riders racing the best bikes. If the best bikes happen to be electric, then that's what I want to see. If not, then there's even less of a reason to keep them out of competition.

Define "best bike". It's an opinion or subjective, at best. Under my proposed scenario, there is no need for "balance" or trying to justify a bunch of rules contortion. Why make problems where none exist? Race classes and enjoy the races that unfold. The only people I see trying to push "balance" are the ones with a vested interest in it, i.e., Stark (or those who are extremely enthusiastic about e-bikes). If Stark is the only manufacturer, who cares? They'd have a guaranteed class championship every year. 😄 (Reminds me of Honda trying to force the 150R on everyone. It didn't work out but that was their choice to go down that road and buyers weren't obligated to follow and thankfully weren't foced to do so.) But that's not really the goal. Their goal is to convert ICE buyers (since the market is only so big) and the way to do that is to put the ICE riders at such a disadvantage that they are forced to the e-platform if they want to remain competitive. Sound familiar?  That's not competition, that's a rigged system.

I'm not talking about an IROC-style series or a "stock" class. I'm talking about what has worked for decades - a platform-based class with allowable mods defined in a rule book and let the best man win.

And this has nothing to do with having a disdain for one platform or another, I'm just seeing what the inevitable outcome will be based on past experiences with the powers-that-be: the intentional extinction of one platform in favor of another. And it's done with the motivation being to make them money, not to improve the sport or quality of competition.

And let's be honest, the reason 4Ts and e-bikes gained a lot of popularity is because they're "easier" to ride (meaning they don't require as much skill to go as fast as some other platforms). But just how "easy" do we want to make things? Take away more of the required rider input and we might as well be on a roller coaster. 🤔

1
OldTech
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Decatur, AL, USA
3 hours ago
I disagree on removing all restrictions - that would likely lead to a single platform scenario. You can have an "open" class where anything goes, but...

I disagree on removing all restrictions - that would likely lead to a single platform scenario. You can have an "open" class where anything goes, but I still believe in classes to allow riders to choose what best suits them.

Again, what is the goal? To determine which platform is most advantageous under certain conditions or who the best rider is on the circuit? All my life the purpose of a race was to determine the latter. 

Juck wrote:
It seems to me that we both think it's about balance, but disagree about where it lies. If you're allowing different bikes with different mods to compete...

It seems to me that we both think it's about balance, but disagree about where it lies. 

If you're allowing different bikes with different mods to compete against each other in a class, then it is practically impossible to make them equal, regardless of displacement. So in that case the proper thing to do would be to force each manufacturer to race in their own class on stock bikes, but that is impractical so it won't happen.

My gripe is that if you create an electric class, you are essentially singling Stark out by forcing them to compete in their own class as there are no other competitive electric motocross bikes currently. 

If the Starks do prove to be an advantage, then there's nothing stopping anyone from racing them over an ICE bike. 

My opinion is unpopular due to most motocross fans' disdain for electric bikes, but I'm not attached to any piece of technology and just want to see the best riders racing the best bikes. If the best bikes happen to be electric, then that's what I want to see. If not, then there's even less of a reason to keep them out of competition.

truck wrote:
The different bikes with different mods thing is by choice though, not because they're running fundamentally different bikes that cannot be modified in similar ways as...

The different bikes with different mods thing is by choice though, not because they're running fundamentally different bikes that cannot be modified in similar ways as the others. Anyone can have the essentially the same stuff with enough $$$.

As far as singling Stark out, they did that to themselves. That's their business model. They aren't entitled to have rules changed to accommodate them just because that's what they want to happen. 

It's Vince's dream, dial the old gigawatts up for a monster holeshot, and roadblock the rest of the moto.

1
Village Idiot
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3 hours ago
Juck wrote:
It seems to me that we both think it's about balance, but disagree about where it lies. If you're allowing different bikes with different mods to compete...

It seems to me that we both think it's about balance, but disagree about where it lies. 

If you're allowing different bikes with different mods to compete against each other in a class, then it is practically impossible to make them equal, regardless of displacement. So in that case the proper thing to do would be to force each manufacturer to race in their own class on stock bikes, but that is impractical so it won't happen.

My gripe is that if you create an electric class, you are essentially singling Stark out by forcing them to compete in their own class as there are no other competitive electric motocross bikes currently. 

If the Starks do prove to be an advantage, then there's nothing stopping anyone from racing them over an ICE bike. 

My opinion is unpopular due to most motocross fans' disdain for electric bikes, but I'm not attached to any piece of technology and just want to see the best riders racing the best bikes. If the best bikes happen to be electric, then that's what I want to see. If not, then there's even less of a reason to keep them out of competition.

truck wrote:
The different bikes with different mods thing is by choice though, not because they're running fundamentally different bikes that cannot be modified in similar ways as...

The different bikes with different mods thing is by choice though, not because they're running fundamentally different bikes that cannot be modified in similar ways as the others. Anyone can have the essentially the same stuff with enough $$$.

As far as singling Stark out, they did that to themselves. That's their business model. They aren't entitled to have rules changed to accommodate them just because that's what they want to happen. 

OldTech wrote:

It's Vince's dream, dial the old gigawatts up for a monster holeshot, and roadblock the rest of the moto.

😄

"But this one goes to eleven."

2
Beagle
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Toulouse, FR
3 hours ago Edited Date/Time 3 hours ago

It's never been only about the rider, at pro level OEMs spend millions to prove to potential customers (and themselves, or their board at least) that their bike is the best. Of course they also compete to hire the best riders to win and to help develop the bike because the rider still matters a lot, which is the beauty of racing motorcycles.

Starks are currently handicapped to be allowed to race and the FIM can unilaterally decide, whenever they feel like it (say if Stark were to start winning races), to handicap them more by lowering max power and/or rising minimum weight. 

Starks can very quickly adapt to new rules by reducing their max power since it's only software (unlike asking a 450 to drop 5 or 10 hp). They also are equipped with FIM mandated data logger recording current, voltage and so on which gives so much more information to the FIM than for gas bikes.

Somehow I doubt that Stark riders' WSX results will ease the fear of the OEMs behind AMA decisions. Can't wait for Yamaha, Honda and others to bring their prototypes to production, this way an electric series could make sense, pro riders will just choose the bike they're fastest with.

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2
jjsteady751
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3 hours ago
DownSouth wrote:

Why no #1 plate for Anderson?

He said he's more of a classic guy like the #222 and wants to wear his 21 instead of #1

1
Village Idiot
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2 hours ago Edited Date/Time 2 hours ago
Beagle wrote:
It's never been only about the rider, at pro level OEMs spend millions to prove to potential customers (and themselves, or their board at least) that...

It's never been only about the rider, at pro level OEMs spend millions to prove to potential customers (and themselves, or their board at least) that their bike is the best. Of course they also compete to hire the best riders to win and to help develop the bike because the rider still matters a lot, which is the beauty of racing motorcycles.

Starks are currently handicapped to be allowed to race and the FIM can unilaterally decide, whenever they feel like it (say if Stark were to start winning races), to handicap them more by lowering max power and/or rising minimum weight. 

Starks can very quickly adapt to new rules by reducing their max power since it's only software (unlike asking a 450 to drop 5 or 10 hp). They also are equipped with FIM mandated data logger recording current, voltage and so on which gives so much more information to the FIM than for gas bikes.

Somehow I doubt that Stark riders' WSX results will ease the fear of the OEMs behind AMA decisions. Can't wait for Yamaha, Honda and others to bring their prototypes to production, this way an electric series could make sense, pro riders will just choose the bike they're fastest with.

Why so much resistance to assigning them to their own class? All this "handicapping" and "restricting" is a bunch of nonsense. Reminds me of letting men who call themselves women compete against women if their testosterone level is below a certain theshold. Eliminate all the stupidity and unnecessary work and race like against like. Much easier and totally logical. 👍

4
Scull79
Posts
394
Joined
10/12/2017
Location
Mechanicsville, VA, USA
2 hours ago
truck wrote:
The different bikes with different mods thing is by choice though, not because they're running fundamentally different bikes that cannot be modified in similar ways as...

The different bikes with different mods thing is by choice though, not because they're running fundamentally different bikes that cannot be modified in similar ways as the others. Anyone can have the essentially the same stuff with enough $$$.

As far as singling Stark out, they did that to themselves. That's their business model. They aren't entitled to have rules changed to accommodate them just because that's what they want to happen. 

OldTech wrote:

It's Vince's dream, dial the old gigawatts up for a monster holeshot, and roadblock the rest of the moto.

😄

"But this one goes to eleven."

image 656
2
2 hours ago Edited Date/Time 2 hours ago

Just caught the YouTube replay. Can’t say I’ve ever witnessed kamikaze tough blocks before now.

8tensolutions
Posts
3517
Joined
11/15/2009
Location
Salt Lake City, UT, USA
2 hours ago
Juck wrote:
Or, alternatively, remove the restrictions if you want a level playing field and just accept that some bikes are better than others. I highly doubt a Stark...

Or, alternatively, remove the restrictions if you want a level playing field and just accept that some bikes are better than others. 

I highly doubt a Stark with no HP restrictions is more of an advantage over the other bikes than a factory bike is over a stock or maybe even privateer bike.

I disagree on removing all restrictions - that would likely lead to a single platform scenario. You can have an "open" class where anything goes, but...

I disagree on removing all restrictions - that would likely lead to a single platform scenario. You can have an "open" class where anything goes, but I still believe in classes to allow riders to choose what best suits them.

Again, what is the goal? To determine which platform is most advantageous under certain conditions or who the best rider is on the circuit? All my life the purpose of a race was to determine the latter. 

Juck wrote:
It seems to me that we both think it's about balance, but disagree about where it lies. If you're allowing different bikes with different mods to compete...

It seems to me that we both think it's about balance, but disagree about where it lies. 

If you're allowing different bikes with different mods to compete against each other in a class, then it is practically impossible to make them equal, regardless of displacement. So in that case the proper thing to do would be to force each manufacturer to race in their own class on stock bikes, but that is impractical so it won't happen.

My gripe is that if you create an electric class, you are essentially singling Stark out by forcing them to compete in their own class as there are no other competitive electric motocross bikes currently. 

If the Starks do prove to be an advantage, then there's nothing stopping anyone from racing them over an ICE bike. 

My opinion is unpopular due to most motocross fans' disdain for electric bikes, but I'm not attached to any piece of technology and just want to see the best riders racing the best bikes. If the best bikes happen to be electric, then that's what I want to see. If not, then there's even less of a reason to keep them out of competition.

Agreed.  A PC Kawi is light years better than a PRMX Kawi, but they are both "within the rules".   

Timo
Posts
1471
Joined
1/9/2021
Location
Wichita, KS, USA
2 hours ago
Smuffers wrote:
Will be interesting to see how these Stark riders stack up when we get back to sea level racing. Really wonder how much of an advantage...

Will be interesting to see how these Stark riders stack up when we get back to sea level racing. Really wonder how much of an advantage they have here. 

Watch some of Carson Brown's YouTube. He rides everything and says no matter what he's always a second or 2 faster on the stark. Like comparing a 125 to a 250f, easier to ride with more traction and torque. A b level pro rider can definitely up their game by jumping on one. 

1
CPR
Posts
6999
Joined
10/4/2018
Location
AU
2 hours ago
DonM wrote:
Can someone explain to me why the last race was thrown out? they completed more than the 51% that the FIM rules call for a race...

Can someone explain to me why the last race was thrown out? they completed more than the 51% that the FIM rules call for a race to be complete and the points paid out for the last completed lap....🤷‍♂️ 

Yeah, no, for sure... 🤔But don't fret, at the next round they'll award points for a 4th moto in SX1 that wasn't run and no one...

Yeah, no, for sure... 🤔

But don't fret, at the next round they'll award points for a 4th moto in SX1 that wasn't run and no one got to see... because it makes as much sense as pretending moto 3 never happened in Calgary. 😄

Unfortunately the race hadn't completed 75% and couldn't be restarted because of the weather,  so it was cancelled as per the rules.

Screenshot 20260810 095556 Samsung Notes.jpg?VersionId=.ctiaMo.BJbEdUXq
3
Village Idiot
Posts
2621
Joined
5/19/2023
Location
MXoN - a term used by newbs, goobs and rubes, PW, USA
1 hour ago
DonM wrote:
Can someone explain to me why the last race was thrown out? they completed more than the 51% that the FIM rules call for a race...

Can someone explain to me why the last race was thrown out? they completed more than the 51% that the FIM rules call for a race to be complete and the points paid out for the last completed lap....🤷‍♂️ 

Yeah, no, for sure... 🤔But don't fret, at the next round they'll award points for a 4th moto in SX1 that wasn't run and no one...

Yeah, no, for sure... 🤔

But don't fret, at the next round they'll award points for a 4th moto in SX1 that wasn't run and no one got to see... because it makes as much sense as pretending moto 3 never happened in Calgary. 😄

CPR wrote:
Unfortunately the race hadn't completed 75% and couldn't be restarted because of the weather,  so it was cancelled as per the rules.

Unfortunately the race hadn't completed 75% and couldn't be restarted because of the weather,  so it was cancelled as per the rules.

Screenshot 20260810 095556 Samsung Notes.jpg?VersionId=.ctiaMo.BJbEdUXq

👍

It would have been nice if the on-screen personalities had communicated that to the viewers instead of leaving so many confused with the situation.

Guess they have to choose between announcers who are familiar with the sport or JuJu Jitsu experts... can't have both. 😄

1
vdrsnk04
Posts
2227
Joined
9/5/2018
Location
USA
1 hour ago
Beagle wrote:
It's never been only about the rider, at pro level OEMs spend millions to prove to potential customers (and themselves, or their board at least) that...

It's never been only about the rider, at pro level OEMs spend millions to prove to potential customers (and themselves, or their board at least) that their bike is the best. Of course they also compete to hire the best riders to win and to help develop the bike because the rider still matters a lot, which is the beauty of racing motorcycles.

Starks are currently handicapped to be allowed to race and the FIM can unilaterally decide, whenever they feel like it (say if Stark were to start winning races), to handicap them more by lowering max power and/or rising minimum weight. 

Starks can very quickly adapt to new rules by reducing their max power since it's only software (unlike asking a 450 to drop 5 or 10 hp). They also are equipped with FIM mandated data logger recording current, voltage and so on which gives so much more information to the FIM than for gas bikes.

Somehow I doubt that Stark riders' WSX results will ease the fear of the OEMs behind AMA decisions. Can't wait for Yamaha, Honda and others to bring their prototypes to production, this way an electric series could make sense, pro riders will just choose the bike they're fastest with.

Why so much resistance to assigning them to their own class? All this "handicapping" and "restricting" is a bunch of nonsense. Reminds me of letting men...

Why so much resistance to assigning them to their own class? All this "handicapping" and "restricting" is a bunch of nonsense. Reminds me of letting men who call themselves women compete against women if their testosterone level is below a certain theshold. Eliminate all the stupidity and unnecessary work and race like against like. Much easier and totally logical. 👍

It’s already not like against like. Davies YZ250f isn’t the same as the YZ250f the guy getting 30th rides. 

1

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