Is Lucas Coenen, at the moment, the fastest rider in history without a title?

KurtJ99
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8/3/2026 10:41am
APLMAN99 wrote:
Bradshaw was my first thought as well but maybe it’s because he never won a major championship ever. Windham also, but I don’t know if he would...

Bradshaw was my first thought as well but maybe it’s because he never won a major championship ever. 

Windham also, but I don’t know if he would have been considered quite that fast before he turned 20. 

Marcello10 wrote:

Windham already won the 1996 and 1997 125 west coast Supercross championship at 18 and 19

APLMAN99 wrote:
We don’t count those as major championships, they’re regional championships. Each region has only ‘half’ of the top 125/250F riders competing in it. The Nationals are...

We don’t count those as major championships, they’re regional championships. Each region has only ‘half’ of the top 125/250F riders competing in it. The Nationals are different because all of the top 125/250F riders are competing against each other. 

Is that the same way we don't count MX2 because it is age limited, like a Loretta Lynn's championship? 🤔🤔🤔

sarcasm, sorta. 

 

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The Moth
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8/3/2026 11:24am

I wonder if Lucas stays another season in MXGP since the title is all but gone? 

Or is USA already a done deal?  

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The Wolf Man
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8/3/2026 12:17pm
Marcello10 wrote:
I was thinking about this yesterday watching Herlings running away with the red plate but couldn’t really think of anyone even close to his speed level...

I was thinking about this yesterday watching Herlings running away with the red plate but couldn’t really think of anyone even close to his speed level and without at least a championship title at his age (he will turn 20 in November). 

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Kyna
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8/3/2026 1:02pm

i'm a little bit afraid how far over the pain barrier those two go ...Lucas has a blocked nerve in his leg because of a compressed vertebra as far as i know? but he still finds courage to appear at the start two gp's, possible making that injury worser and taking it with him for the coming years. Then how Sacha is dealing with a broken colarbone 😮😮  ..i'm sheering for the two brothers but i hope they dont wreck their body's in a short period of time.  

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The Shop

APLMAN99
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Marcello10 wrote:

Windham already won the 1996 and 1997 125 west coast Supercross championship at 18 and 19

APLMAN99 wrote:
We don’t count those as major championships, they’re regional championships. Each region has only ‘half’ of the top 125/250F riders competing in it. The Nationals are...

We don’t count those as major championships, they’re regional championships. Each region has only ‘half’ of the top 125/250F riders competing in it. The Nationals are different because all of the top 125/250F riders are competing against each other. 

KurtJ99 wrote:

Is that the same way we don't count MX2 because it is age limited, like a Loretta Lynn's championship? 🤔🤔🤔

sarcasm, sorta. 

 

I guess you can put enough qualifiers in to make almost anything work, but a regional championship is just that. 

No worries, the entire discussion is purely subjective anyway! 

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APLMAN99
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I think that Ricky Johnson has a pretty good argument here. He came within a blown out wheel of winning the 82 250 National Championship when he was 17, and didn’t win his first title until after he turned 20. 

Mark Barnett is a valid candidate as well. 

Surprisingly, Jeff Stanton might fit into the criteria pretty well also. 

 

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OT
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Did the question change, again? 

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Paul333
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8/4/2026 5:04am
Marcello10 wrote:
I was thinking about this yesterday watching Herlings running away with the red plate but couldn’t really think of anyone even close to his speed level...

I was thinking about this yesterday watching Herlings running away with the red plate but couldn’t really think of anyone even close to his speed level and without at least a championship title at his age (he will turn 20 in November). 

I think Coenen is a little young to even think about it that way. 

GP's I'd say Sylvain Geboers, Kurt Nicole, Max Nagl, and a couple of others were fast for long periods but didn't win a title. 

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Marcello10
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8/4/2026 5:47am Edited Date/Time 8/4/2026 5:51am
OT wrote:

Did the question change, again? 

A few guys thought that with "currently" I meant of the current active riders (I guess?) and felt confused with the following "in history". I removed "for his age" too because it was actually irrelevant from my point, even if compared to riders who won one but later than at Coenen's current age what made the question interesting for me is the fact that I think he could be the fastest in general, of them included. I'm just trying to make it as simple as possible

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Marcello10
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8/4/2026 6:04am
rym wrote:
Febvre was something like 24 when he won his first title.Everts and Cairoli were similar age as Coenen currently when they won their first title iirc...

Febvre was something like 24 when he won his first title.

Everts and Cairoli were similar age as Coenen currently when they won their first title iirc. They were 23-24ish i think when they won the premier class (the old 250cc/mxgp)

The difference is that Coenen stepped up very early to the premier class. He missed the MX2 title by a few points in '24. It would have to be Herlings type of bad luck/injuries to happen for Coenen not to win an MX2 title last year or this year had he stayed in MX2.

 

I agree, with a bit more luck he should have been the MX2 champion in 2024 and MXGP champion last year, it was interesting to see him move up so early and so young without a title when Herlings stayed there three more years just to finally win his third title in 2016 and leave the class as the reigning champion

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BossWool2800
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8/4/2026 9:31am
Marcello10 wrote:
A few guys thought that with "currently" I meant of the current active riders (I guess?) and felt confused with the following "in history". I removed...

A few guys thought that with "currently" I meant of the current active riders (I guess?) and felt confused with the following "in history". I removed "for his age" too because it was actually irrelevant from my point, even if compared to riders who won one but later than at Coenen's current age what made the question interesting for me is the fact that I think he could be the fastest in general, of them included. I'm just trying to make it as simple as possible

Haha, I needed a good laugh today lol

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Marcello10
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8/4/2026 11:39am
Marcello10 wrote:
A few guys thought that with "currently" I meant of the current active riders (I guess?) and felt confused with the following "in history". I removed...

A few guys thought that with "currently" I meant of the current active riders (I guess?) and felt confused with the following "in history". I removed "for his age" too because it was actually irrelevant from my point, even if compared to riders who won one but later than at Coenen's current age what made the question interesting for me is the fact that I think he could be the fastest in general, of them included. I'm just trying to make it as simple as possible

Haha, I needed a good laugh today lol

Good for you, what was difficult to understand in currently meaning that being active he could still win one and in history meaning comparing him to any other rider in the history of the sport I’m not sure. And you should be the native speaker… 

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DonM
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8/5/2026 2:19pm
The Moth wrote:

I wonder if Lucas stays another season in MXGP since the title is all but gone? 

Or is USA already a done deal?  

Done deal...they're coming...

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BossWool2800
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8/5/2026 3:04pm Edited Date/Time 8/5/2026 3:09pm
Marcello10 wrote:
A few guys thought that with "currently" I meant of the current active riders (I guess?) and felt confused with the following "in history". I removed...

A few guys thought that with "currently" I meant of the current active riders (I guess?) and felt confused with the following "in history". I removed "for his age" too because it was actually irrelevant from my point, even if compared to riders who won one but later than at Coenen's current age what made the question interesting for me is the fact that I think he could be the fastest in general, of them included. I'm just trying to make it as simple as possible

Haha, I needed a good laugh today lol

Marcello10 wrote:
Good for you, what was difficult to understand in currently meaning that being active he could still win one and in history meaning comparing him to...

Good for you, what was difficult to understand in currently meaning that being active he could still win one and in history meaning comparing him to any other rider in the history of the sport I’m not sure. And you should be the native speaker… 

Copy that. It’s just struck me funny how the narrow criteria  keeps narrowing. Coenen bros just had a costly experience at Southwick. Otherwise they would’ve won the GPs. So for “currently” with “history” beginning now, we can say they are the fastest without a title.

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Shred
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8/5/2026 3:12pm
Marcello10 wrote:

Windham already won the 1996 and 1997 125 west coast Supercross championship at 18 and 19

APLMAN99 wrote:
We don’t count those as major championships, they’re regional championships. Each region has only ‘half’ of the top 125/250F riders competing in it. The Nationals are...

We don’t count those as major championships, they’re regional championships. Each region has only ‘half’ of the top 125/250F riders competing in it. The Nationals are different because all of the top 125/250F riders are competing against each other. 

KurtJ99 wrote:

Is that the same way we don't count MX2 because it is age limited, like a Loretta Lynn's championship? 🤔🤔🤔

sarcasm, sorta. 

 

Well…it is why I personally don’t count camping in MX2 cherry picking wins towards being the all time MXGP rider.  Cairoli IS the GOAT of MXGP!

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kpiper
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8/5/2026 3:19pm
Shred wrote:

Well…it is why I personally don’t count camping in MX2 cherry picking wins towards being the all time MXGP rider.  Cairoli IS the GOAT of MXGP!

I thought Stefan Everts was the GOAT?

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MPJC
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8/5/2026 3:30pm Edited Date/Time 8/5/2026 4:12pm

People can’t agree on what counts as “fastest” when guys are racing head to head in the same series. You’d think that Webb was the fastest 450 supercross rider in 2025 because he won the champions but plenty of people say Sexton was faster. Hell, people were saying that Sexton was faster than Webb in races that Webb won. You’ve got fastest = got to the finish line first (this is the most natural way to I understand it, in terms of distance divided by the time taken) vs highest maximum speed or something like distance divided by time correcting for (excluding) certain mistakes or crashes (eg correct for things like time hung up on the starting gate). I don’t like imagining a world where the mistakes that happened and slowed a rider down didn’t happen - I’d rather stick to the actual world where gate mishaps and crashes reduce your average speed. If Webb won the race, he was fastest that race. But it makes perfect sense to say that someone else was faster than the champion that year because he missed races due to injury or illness, but won handily when actually racing. Now one can sort such things out if comparing riders in the same series. But how in the world can we meaningfully talk about who’s faster when they raced years or decades apart, and on different continents against different competitors when we can’t even always agree on who was fastest in a single race?

If someone can specify what counts a “fastest” for the purposes of this conversation and there can be at least a reasonable amount of agreement on it, then there’s a conversation to be had. 

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Shred
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8/5/2026 9:11pm Edited Date/Time 8/5/2026 9:14pm
Shred wrote:

Well…it is why I personally don’t count camping in MX2 cherry picking wins towards being the all time MXGP rider.  Cairoli IS the GOAT of MXGP!

kpiper wrote:

I thought Stefan Everts was the GOAT?

I personally count big bikes.  If someone stays in the 250F class more than 1 year after 1st title…that’s either cherry picking, avoiding competition above you, or both.  Either way….talking GOAT I look at 450s.  All jmho.

IMG 2195 3
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8/5/2026 10:43pm

So the coenens looked unstoppable in the GPs until they came to the US.  Both of them are gonna lose those championships now.  Their speed wasnt impressive when they got back to Europe either.  KTM europe has got to be disappointed 

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MBR_118
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8/6/2026 12:33am
Shred wrote:

Well…it is why I personally don’t count camping in MX2 cherry picking wins towards being the all time MXGP rider.  Cairoli IS the GOAT of MXGP!

kpiper wrote:

I thought Stefan Everts was the GOAT?

Shred wrote:
I personally count big bikes.  If someone stays in the 250F class more than 1 year after 1st title…that’s either cherry picking, avoiding competition above you...

I personally count big bikes.  If someone stays in the 250F class more than 1 year after 1st title…that’s either cherry picking, avoiding competition above you, or both.  Either way….talking GOAT I look at 450s.  All jmho.

IMG 2195 3

I don't like that table, 500cc > mx3, and good old 250 strokes became mx1 in my opinion, and Mx2 same as old 125 class

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Jefro98
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8/6/2026 1:09am
kpiper wrote:

I thought Stefan Everts was the GOAT?

Shred wrote:
I personally count big bikes.  If someone stays in the 250F class more than 1 year after 1st title…that’s either cherry picking, avoiding competition above you...

I personally count big bikes.  If someone stays in the 250F class more than 1 year after 1st title…that’s either cherry picking, avoiding competition above you, or both.  Either way….talking GOAT I look at 450s.  All jmho.

IMG 2195 3
MBR_118 wrote:

I don't like that table, 500cc > mx3, and good old 250 strokes became mx1 in my opinion, and Mx2 same as old 125 class

Agree, that table is cross rutted.

250cc in the Everts / Tortelli / Albertijn / Pichon / Coppins etc. era was the premier class which became MX1, which became MXGP and not MX2.

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Chris_Buehler
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8/6/2026 6:40am Edited Date/Time 8/6/2026 6:40am
Marcello10 wrote:
I was thinking about this yesterday watching Herlings running away with the red plate but couldn’t really think of anyone even close to his speed level...

I was thinking about this yesterday watching Herlings running away with the red plate but couldn’t really think of anyone even close to his speed level and without at least a championship title at his age (he will turn 20 in November). 

DeStouwer wrote:
For example: Jett and Hunter had won absolutely nothing when they left Europe for the US at age 16 and 19. Not even 1 GP. Look...

For example: Jett and Hunter had won absolutely nothing when they left Europe for the US at age 16 and 19. Not even 1 GP. Look at them now.

Both Coenens have plenty of time.

Jett was 15 when he raced EMX. He never raced a GP. Kinda tough to win something you never raced

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DeStouwer
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8/6/2026 7:33am

Jett was 15 when he raced EMX. He never raced a GP. Kinda tough to win something you never raced

Hunter did, won nothing.

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mxxxeR1
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8/6/2026 12:31pm
Marcello10 wrote:
I was thinking about this yesterday watching Herlings running away with the red plate but couldn’t really think of anyone even close to his speed level...

I was thinking about this yesterday watching Herlings running away with the red plate but couldn’t really think of anyone even close to his speed level and without at least a championship title at his age (he will turn 20 in November). 

DeStouwer wrote:
For example: Jett and Hunter had won absolutely nothing when they left Europe for the US at age 16 and 19. Not even 1 GP. Look...

For example: Jett and Hunter had won absolutely nothing when they left Europe for the US at age 16 and 19. Not even 1 GP. Look at them now.

Both Coenens have plenty of time.

Jett was 15 when he raced EMX. He never raced a GP. Kinda tough to win something you never raced

Perhaps it was actually a good thing for the lawrence that they hadn't won anything in europa,,, that way,,,,expectations weren't as high as they are now for the coenens,,,,,,,,,,

Jabe
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8/6/2026 12:59pm
Shred wrote:
I personally count big bikes.  If someone stays in the 250F class more than 1 year after 1st title…that’s either cherry picking, avoiding competition above you...

I personally count big bikes.  If someone stays in the 250F class more than 1 year after 1st title…that’s either cherry picking, avoiding competition above you, or both.  Either way….talking GOAT I look at 450s.  All jmho.

IMG 2195 3

What fucked up categorisation is that?

The 500 class becomes mxgp via 650cc? That just does not make sense. The 250 2t and then later mx1 and then mxgp should be combined. Everts is topping it.

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Paul333
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8/7/2026 5:27am
The Moth wrote:

I wonder if Lucas stays another season in MXGP since the title is all but gone? 

Or is USA already a done deal?  

DonM wrote:

Done deal...they're coming...

Can not wait. 

Hopefully they can get through SX, learn from it but make it to the outdoors healthy. 

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kpiper
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8/8/2026 12:46pm Edited Date/Time 8/8/2026 12:49pm
DeStouwer wrote:
For example: Jett and Hunter had won absolutely nothing when they left Europe for the US at age 16 and 19. Not even 1 GP. Look...

For example: Jett and Hunter had won absolutely nothing when they left Europe for the US at age 16 and 19. Not even 1 GP. Look at them now.

Both Coenens have plenty of time.

Jett was 15 when he raced EMX. He never raced a GP. Kinda tough to win something you never raced

mxxxeR1 wrote:
Perhaps it was actually a good thing for the lawrence that they hadn't won anything in europa,,, that way,,,,expectations weren't as high as they are now...

Perhaps it was actually a good thing for the lawrence that they hadn't won anything in europa,,, that way,,,,expectations weren't as high as they are now for the coenens,,,,,,,,,,

Truth. If the Coenen boys were not both leading the GPs when they came to the USA and had only won maybe a moto or two each, all year, there would not be all this talk.

Clearly, GP titles are not the be-all, end-all for these guys. And that is perfectly fine. People can live the life they want.

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