What is the next step in engine/chassis development?

4/30/2025 11:49am

I see smaller CC engines for both classes, just like the 500cc, the 450 will become a relec.

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Luxon MX
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4/30/2025 12:34pm
lumpy790 wrote:
Thank you Luxon for stepping up posting great information in this post. I too agree with you on the AI part. Use your brain. Here is a...

Thank you Luxon for stepping up posting great information in this post. I too agree with you on the AI part. Use your brain. 

Here is a question for you when it comes to flex. Is triple clamps flex a major part of a bikes handling? Some people have been complaining about a bikes suspension and handling being bad. Can adding more triple clamp flex give them what magic cure they are looking for? Another part is Fork tube fles could be a major part of this too.

Frames also use the motors for part of the frames bracing and strength and I see some are completely removing motor mounts so the frame actually flexes more. Is this transferring a load in one area of the frame that is now a place that will eventually fail and crack?

I could write a novel on this stuff, but in the interest of time, here are some high level points to answer your questions:

Is triple clamps flex a major part of a bikes handling? 

It can be significant. We make clamps as stiff as possible in all directions except front to back. That makes them handle precisely and keeps the fork tubes better aligned for less binding, which ironically makes it more comfortable despite the clamps being stiffer. The stiffness front to back is tuned for comfort and can make a big difference in feel on the track.  

Some people have been complaining about a bikes suspension and handling being bad. Can adding more triple clamp flex give them what magic cure they are looking for? 

There's no magic cure for anything; it won't fix all your problems, but the right flex can certainly make things a lot better for comfort and handling. Clamps are perhaps the largest change you can make in terms of stiffness changes on the bike. That change will vary significantly by who made the clamps you're using, though, and won't necessarily be a good thing... 

Another part is Fork tube flex could be a major part of this too.

Everything flexes to some extent. Fork tubes are a big part of that, but there aren't many options for swapping those out for tuning. Here's an old blog post about that: https://www.luxonmx.com/blog-luxon-fork-tube-stiffness-flex.html 

Frames also use the motors for part of the frames bracing and strength and I see some are completely removing motor mounts so the frame actually flexes more. Is this transferring a load in one area of the frame that is now a place that will eventually fail and crack?

Possibly. That depends on a lot of factors, and will vary bike by bike, so I can't give a blanket answer for all situations. I wouldn't recommend removing any engine mounts entirely, and it likely wouldn't be a good result for handling anyways. Aftermarket mounts with a hole in them have more of a mental effect than a physical one. They flex more, but not much more at all. Doubling the flex of something that hardly flexed to begin with doesn't do much! We have rubber isolated engine mounts coming out that are a different story. There's enough give to actually feel a difference and remove some vibration, but it still provides the structural support the frame needs and maintains precision in handling. 

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mark_swart
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4/30/2025 1:07pm

I believe Yamaha has been developing an active rear suspension system, it actually changes damping when the rear brakes are applied. This allows the rear of the bike to settle instead of hopping in braking bumps. Really quite ingenius!

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brandonshaw
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4/30/2025 1:07pm
Crutcher wrote:
Honestly, I'm hoping the next step are some steps backwards. Simplify them, reduce parts, more analog.If the KTM 2 strokes stop development today- we will be...

Honestly, I'm hoping the next step are some steps backwards. Simplify them, reduce parts, more analog.

If the KTM 2 strokes stop development today- we will be perfectly happy with them for the rest of time.

That doesn't sell new bikes though. All these OEMs are pretty much always going to be NEWER, FASTER, BETTER! 

The Shop

lumpy790
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4/30/2025 2:15pm
mark_swart wrote:
I believe Yamaha has been developing an active rear suspension system, it actually changes damping when the rear brakes are applied. This allows the rear of...

I believe Yamaha has been developing an active rear suspension system, it actually changes damping when the rear brakes are applied. This allows the rear of the bike to settle instead of hopping in braking bumps. Really quite ingenius!

Yamaha has already done that for a short period on production bikes with a cable going to the shock from the rear brake pedal along with Z spokes 

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mark_swart
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4/30/2025 6:21pm Edited Date/Time 4/30/2025 6:23pm
lumpy790 wrote:
Yamaha has already done that for a short period on production bikes with a cable going to the shock from the rear brake pedal along with...

Yamaha has already done that for a short period on production bikes with a cable going to the shock from the rear brake pedal along with Z spokes 

Yes - BASS - that was my obscure sarcastic joke, sorry! 

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Pop Shmoke
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21 hours ago
Pop Shmoke wrote:
Now that besides suzuki basically all new bikes have a centerport exhaust, downdraft intake, dohc finger followers or sohc with roller rockers, high comp pistons, fuel...

Now that besides suzuki basically all new bikes have a centerport exhaust, downdraft intake, dohc finger followers or sohc with roller rockers, high comp pistons, fuel injection, suspension linkage…etc what is going to be the next innovation or crossover from moto gp that you guys see happening? Once the bikes all got the centerport exhaust they all basically have the same high end stuff. The ducati is bringing in something new with the desmodromic valve train which looks to have good power and the other brands are probably going to have to respond. 

What do you see happening in the short, medium, and long term as far as engine and chassis development? Some of the options that could be brought over are variable valve timing, direct injection, using the engine as a stressed member of the frame, carbon fiber frame, electronic suspension, air shock, pneumatic valve actuation, electronic valve operation, hybrid electric drivetrain, electric forced induction, traction control, electronic coolant pump…etc. What else is there for options and what do you see coming?

Looks like the slipper clutch is the next piece of motogp tech that is making its way over to mx now. I’m not sure how huge of an impact it will have on dirt compared to pavement, but still not skidding the rear tire when downshifting will still be useful. Either way cool to see. 

 

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Donk122
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19 hours ago

I feel like we are getting to a point where we're trying to get the engine and chassis work in unison where I gotta wonder if they're trying to optimally align crankshaft vs output shaft to have a certain affect on the chassis under load etc etc. With todays technology can we drastically alter bore / stroke and make power in a different way to reduce rotating mass and affect the chassis in a particular manner? Puff puff, pass...

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clem
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19 hours ago

Since Suzuki dropped the first cartridge forks and FI, I'll be keeping an eye on those upcoming releases from the yellow squad.

On a serious note, Honda does sell the high end version of the Africa Twin with active suspension. I can't imagine their engineers not wanting to try it on the smaller CRF's.

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18 hours ago
Donk122 wrote:
I feel like we are getting to a point where we're trying to get the engine and chassis work in unison where I gotta wonder if...

I feel like we are getting to a point where we're trying to get the engine and chassis work in unison where I gotta wonder if they're trying to optimally align crankshaft vs output shaft to have a certain affect on the chassis under load etc etc. With todays technology can we drastically alter bore / stroke and make power in a different way to reduce rotating mass and affect the chassis in a particular manner? Puff puff, pass...

Whatever there doing to the 450,s it’s not working , except for the Hondas in the nationals. I see backends constantly swamping & kicking left & rt but not real quick.  Watch a 91 500 national even Bradshaw,s yz490 didn’t kick & swamp . And he ride that bike hard & was the fastest at some tracks. 

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17 hours ago

More like an impossible wish but:serious weight loss without breakage and costs going wild.Like I said,wishful thinking but would be so great.

Johnny Oz
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17 hours ago

I see smaller CC engines for both classes, just like the 500cc, the 450 will become a relec.

Yep, I've been saying for years that a destroked 450 (400cc) would make it a touch slower but would lap quicker & safer.

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1
15 hours ago
Pop Shmoke wrote:
Now that besides suzuki basically all new bikes have a centerport exhaust, downdraft intake, dohc finger followers or sohc with roller rockers, high comp pistons, fuel...

Now that besides suzuki basically all new bikes have a centerport exhaust, downdraft intake, dohc finger followers or sohc with roller rockers, high comp pistons, fuel injection, suspension linkage…etc what is going to be the next innovation or crossover from moto gp that you guys see happening? Once the bikes all got the centerport exhaust they all basically have the same high end stuff. The ducati is bringing in something new with the desmodromic valve train which looks to have good power and the other brands are probably going to have to respond. 

What do you see happening in the short, medium, and long term as far as engine and chassis development? Some of the options that could be brought over are variable valve timing, direct injection, using the engine as a stressed member of the frame, carbon fiber frame, electronic suspension, air shock, pneumatic valve actuation, electronic valve operation, hybrid electric drivetrain, electric forced induction, traction control, electronic coolant pump…etc. What else is there for options and what do you see coming?

Pop Shmoke wrote:
Looks like the slipper clutch is the next piece of motogp tech that is making its way over to mx now. I’m not sure how huge...

Looks like the slipper clutch is the next piece of motogp tech that is making its way over to mx now. I’m not sure how huge of an impact it will have on dirt compared to pavement, but still not skidding the rear tire when downshifting will still be useful. Either way cool to see. 

 

The ZX Moto has a slipper clutch as well.

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ZachS
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14 hours ago

We have electronic suspension already (for the fork at least) through Dal Soggio's NXTRAX kit. I got to see it first hand on Clayton Gerstners beta at the Scot Harden Idaho ride, I cant believe people aren't talking about it more! 

The thing I want to see chassis development wise are reach and angle adjustable headsets/headtubes like the mtb industry. This is the single biggest change I think mfg's can make to have their bikes fit a wider range of people comfortably and I know I would personally benefit from like another degree and a half of angle on my ktm and its the only thing I hate about the bike and there's not really anything I can do about it. But on my mtb I can spend a hundo and an hour of my time and totally change the handling of it. Mind blowing stuff. On that note every bike should be coming with adjustable peg mounts like the Kawi or perhaps an even better system and a better more adjustable handlebar mount interface stock. 

The headset thing has been done in pre-pro testing by ktm so there's no reason we cant have it on a production bike:

FORGOTTEN-HEAD-ANGLE-ADJUST-1.jpg?VersionId=FZ9mVdO5fQYFORGOTTEN-KTM-ADJUSTA-HEAD-TUBE-CONES.jpg?VersionId=J5cFVQcWrXc9M6xwJyOn6FCjNhM
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ZachS
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14 hours ago

On the topic of slipper clutches; I ran a recluse auto clutch on my Yamaha 450fx to help specifically with off-throttle front end dive and it totally helped transform the way that bike worked. If the Honda clutch works to combat that in its own way it'll be a big asset on a 450

Pop Shmoke
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14 hours ago
ZachS wrote:
On the topic of slipper clutches; I ran a recluse auto clutch on my Yamaha 450fx to help specifically with off-throttle front end dive and it...

On the topic of slipper clutches; I ran a recluse auto clutch on my Yamaha 450fx to help specifically with off-throttle front end dive and it totally helped transform the way that bike worked. If the Honda clutch works to combat that in its own way it'll be a big asset on a 450

Thats a good point, ive been trying to think of the ways this could affect handling and this would be a big one.

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OldTech
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9 hours ago
clem wrote:
Since Suzuki dropped the first cartridge forks and FI, I'll be keeping an eye on those upcoming releases from the yellow squad.On a serious note, Honda...

Since Suzuki dropped the first cartridge forks and FI, I'll be keeping an eye on those upcoming releases from the yellow squad.

On a serious note, Honda does sell the high end version of the Africa Twin with active suspension. I can't imagine their engineers not wanting to try it on the smaller CRF's.

I think Honda had the cartridge fork back in 86, did you mean production twin chamber fork? 

Pop Shmoke
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6 hours ago

On the title 24 episode with windham they were talking about what could be the next thing and ricky mentioned how brakes have been the same since forever and windham said he didnt think theres any thing else you could do to make them better because theyre already so strong. Maybe not much as in size of rotor or caliper, but they could add electronics to the brakes that give the bike abs on the front and rear which would allow you to grab full brakes front and rear without skidding. I’m sure theres other things they could do too that I’m not thinking of.

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Beagle
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6 hours ago

Slipper clutches have been used on road motorcycles for over 30 years, so not exactly cutting edge technology. I wonder why OEMs would suddenly be interested in using it for their dirt bikes?

5 hours ago

The immediate future is variable valve timing, which is what Ducati is doing.  Theirs is similar to VVTI system in the Toyota where the gear on the end of each cam has 15-20 degrees of rotation so it can advance and retard valve timing dependent on RPM and engine load.  The Japanese are probably working on it already. When Ducati signs a serious top flight guy, the rest of the competition will notice the performance advantage.  

 

The next thing after that will be ride by wire. The throttle will still have a cable. The cable will run down to the front of the frame somewhere, and terminate in a hall sensor contained in a housing. Then 3 wires will run from that hall sensor housing into the ECU which will actuate a servo attached to the side of the throttlebody. So, the throttle housing on your handlebars won't look much  different.  Your throttle cable will just be a shorty to reach the sensor, wherever they decide to mount the sensor.

Combine those two technologies and what you'll find on a dyno chart is a torque curve that jumps straight up around 2000rpms, flattens out and stays flat to red line. 

 

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AH387
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4 hours ago
Beagle wrote:
Slipper clutches have been used on road motorcycles for over 30 years, so not exactly cutting edge technology. I wonder why OEMs would suddenly be interested...

Slipper clutches have been used on road motorcycles for over 30 years, so not exactly cutting edge technology. I wonder why OEMs would suddenly be interested in using it for their dirt bikes?

Yeah it's interesting. I have a 3rd-Gen R6 which has a slipper but no electronics. You still have to rev-match on downshifts to keep the rear from hopping. The slipper, alone wont prevent that. I might keep it from locking up but that's about it. I feel like on some of the newest bikes with the full electronics, a quickshifter with an autoblip for downshifts, does a lot more in that area than a slipper would. I'm not sure if that would transfer over to dirt very well though. There is so much difference between the 2 disciplines and riding techniques, that sometimes a feature being really good at 1, doesn't mean it will work on the other. But I'm just a regular guy that rides, not an engineer.

SmokinJoe439
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4 hours ago

This is what they wheelie boys will want powered by Ai. 

1000023504.jpg?VersionId=7

 

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