Nitrogen myths

Zaugg
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10/31/2019 9:17pm
Zaugg wrote:
This article doesn't address suspension gas and seems more focused on tyre pressure. Claims about Nitrogen for tyres makes sense. Some suspension companies say they use...
This article doesn't address suspension gas and seems more focused on tyre pressure. Claims about Nitrogen for tyres makes sense.

Some suspension companies say they use Nitrogen because it expands at a constant rate or doesn't aerate the oil. A more real world use for suspension would be because Nitrogen is an inert gas and is oxygen free, it is impossible for oxidation or corrosion to occur. Without the presence of oxygen (The 'O' in 'H2O'), water or condensation cannot form inside your forks or shock, hence a corrosion or oxidation free air chamber. (This factors into the "dry" gas concept.)

Unless you are also flooding the tire with hydrogen gas, you are still missing a pretty crucial component in your formula there. If you think atmospheric...
Unless you are also flooding the tire with hydrogen gas, you are still missing a pretty crucial component in your formula there. If you think atmospheric oxygen is ripping hydrogen atoms from the oil, it isn't.

Also, nitration is a thing, so inert......not so much.
You do know I'm saying it's beneficial for suspension right? haha Tires...not so much.



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BobbyM
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10/31/2019 11:56pm
Hydrogen would be my pick... Or maybe methane. There's plenty of that at the track.
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BobbyM
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10/31/2019 11:59pm
KHI Guy wrote:
I worked at a retail tire store when I was in college. The sales people told customers that nitrogen in your tires made the car act...
I worked at a retail tire store when I was in college. The sales people told customers that nitrogen in your tires made the car act as if it was lighter, and gave you better gas mileage. Silly
BroFoSho wrote:
They must have gotten nitrogen confused with helium
Helium no good, probably leak out some... Or all.
11/1/2019 4:54am Edited Date/Time 11/1/2019 4:56am
Bret wrote:
I think it really depends on the type of shock. Emulsion shocks will benefit most from nitrogen vs air since the oil and gas are mixed...
I think it really depends on the type of shock. Emulsion shocks will benefit most from nitrogen vs air since the oil and gas are mixed. Bladder type shocks keep the oil and gas separate. The bladder has one job and that is to compress and expand enough to compensate for the shock shaft moving in and out of the shock body to prevent cavitation. I have used pure nitrogen and compressed air in bladder type shocks and could not feel a difference. If I was a better rider I suppose it is possible that I would notice a difference but it seems unlikely. The bladder pressure is not really used to tune the suspension. That is taken care of by the valving and the shims. I see no harm in using either one for a bladder type shock. I would only use nitrogen in an emulsion shock since I don't want contaminants in the shock oil.
FINALLY the guy that knows. Nitrogen was originally used because the gas was employed on top of the oil, with no bladder in automotive shocks. Oil oxidation would be a problem.
The air you breath is 80% nitrogen. Why is nitrogen used? It’s easy to carry around a pressurized tank to 2000psi as another person suggested, it’s cheap, and it lasts along time. Yes, being inert has a good quality.
Compressed air works perfectly in your bladder or piston shock. No ifs ands or buts.. it expands and contracts the same under heat, your gas WONT leak out.. no worry about aeration, and it’s Contained in a rubber bladder, you have no worry about corrosion. Nitrogen was originally used because of the Air Force, it was cheap. Compressed air with minute quantities of moisture would freeze in accumulators at altitude. Oil does have a water content itself most people don’t realize, which is why a certain oil manufacturer that factory fills Wind Mills bought a dehydrator to reduce water content of oil. I’ve ALWAYS want to dehydrate a shock oil to see if it would reduce fade for a gnarly pro like Carmichael, but it’s the heat And sheering that destroys the VI in the oil very rapidly. Don’t worry about Nitrogen, after 30 minutes on a shock dyno with a high VI shock oil (400+) the oil loses 50% of its original viscosity. That’s insane.

Your tire or shock with ANY gas will expand exactly the same with temperature increase, as compressed air. Great you tube video on Ferrari testing tires with different gases and heating them to the moon, then track testing. They came to the conclusion it’s irrelevant.
I’ve used compressed air my entire life in my shock, I’ve also used Argon and Nitrogen as well. It would be interesting to charge a shock with refrigerant, as the static bladder at 150 psi were compressed, it would remain much closer to the same instead of increasing to 300psi as the shock is fully compressed. Decker said he tested different gases at Kawasaki and could not feel a difference but he COULD feel a difference in different air pressures and how they tried valve around it for James Stewart. So that must be the way OEM settled at the shock pressure they have..
5

The Shop

11/1/2019 5:03am
https://transmoto.com.au/comparative-oil-weights-table/

There is no SAE rating for shock oils. Numbers are arbitrary and irrelevant. Motuls 5wt can be Honda’s 10wt. Which is why some say light, medium and heavy. 10wt doesn’t mean anything in the shock world. So when you change your shock oil, check this chart out. There are tons out there.. make sure you know what you are buying
m21racing
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Reno, NV US
11/1/2019 8:03am
I have used air as a test, but nitrogen is quick and easy. On the other hand, for mountain bike shocks, forks, and mx psf/tac/aer i use air. The older KTM forks with bladders, i use nitrogen because i made a swank tool, with extreme low pressure regulator.

If you had to use air you could, but i would do it in areas of low humidity. As someone already stated, our air is 80% nitrogen.
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lumpy790
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York, SC US
11/1/2019 8:36am
Air has H2O and when heated it increases pressure. Nitrogen’s lack of H2O stays close to the same pressure when the shock heats up. Touch your shock bladder housing after riding. It gets very hot!

I use the riders weight to regulate what pressure to put in the shock.

This is the fitting that needs to be used so you do lot loose 20-30 psi when you pull the air chuck away.



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TeamGreen
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11/1/2019 9:04am
Boomslang wrote:
Nitrogen is an Enert gas and is very stable therefor, more predictable.
Inert?

Laughing
11/1/2019 9:37am Edited Date/Time 11/1/2019 9:38am
lumpy790 wrote:
Air has H2O and when heated it increases pressure. Nitrogen’s lack of H2O stays close to the same pressure when the shock heats up. Touch your...
Air has H2O and when heated it increases pressure. Nitrogen’s lack of H2O stays close to the same pressure when the shock heats up. Touch your shock bladder housing after riding. It gets very hot!

I use the riders weight to regulate what pressure to put in the shock.

This is the fitting that needs to be used so you do lot loose 20-30 psi when you pull the air chuck away.



That is absolutely incorrect. All gases expand the same, equally, under heat. Nitrogen is your shock will increase or decrease your 2-3psi per 15 degree change, same as anything else would. Did you not read the test above that was originally posted? From -20F to +200F, CO2.. Nitrogen, compressed air, are all within .3 degrees.
You won’t lose air remove the chuck or needle. Only checking or inserting, the bladder volume is very small..
Here is another great test of expansion:
https://youtu.be/kmnZ4-EUbIk
4
11/1/2019 9:44am
Waiting for someone to say they vacuum their rubber bladder before charging.
rjg
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11/1/2019 9:56am
Waiting for someone to say they vacuum their rubber bladder before charging.
I already poked at that. No bites
1
11/1/2019 10:19am
Waiting for someone to say they vacuum their rubber bladder before charging.
rjg wrote:
I already poked at that. No bites
LMAO...
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FreshTopEnd
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Sacramento, CA US
11/1/2019 11:35am
The test in that article does nothing to test the permeability of the various gasses through porous rubber.
BobInIndy wrote:
Nitrogen molecules (N2) are larger than oxygen molecules (O2) so therefore, pure nitrogen will permeate the walls of your tires less than oxygen molecules. But by...
Nitrogen molecules (N2) are larger than oxygen molecules (O2) so therefore, pure nitrogen will permeate the walls of your tires less than oxygen molecules. But by how much? Well, a nitrogen molecule measures roughly 300 picometers while an oxygen molecule measures 292 picometers. That's only a 2.6% difference in size.
Moreover, if you are compressing air from the atmosphere, it is roughly 30% oxygen, majority nitrogen.

I doubt people are charging their suspension or tires with pure O2, which would not be a great idea given how aggressively reactive pure O2 is.
ando
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Perth AU
11/1/2019 11:58am
Zaugg wrote:
This article doesn't address suspension gas and seems more focused on tyre pressure. Claims about Nitrogen for tyres makes sense. Some suspension companies say they use...
This article doesn't address suspension gas and seems more focused on tyre pressure. Claims about Nitrogen for tyres makes sense.

Some suspension companies say they use Nitrogen because it expands at a constant rate or doesn't aerate the oil. A more real world use for suspension would be because Nitrogen is an inert gas and is oxygen free, it is impossible for oxidation or corrosion to occur. Without the presence of oxygen (The 'O' in 'H2O'), water or condensation cannot form inside your forks or shock, hence a corrosion or oxidation free air chamber. (This factors into the "dry" gas concept.)

Where does the “H2” come from?
ando
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Perth AU
11/1/2019 12:36pm
You guys should listen to Rick more closely.

All gases (nitrogen, oxygen, air, water vapour) expand at the same rate. Been scientifically proven countless times.

Bottled nitrogen contains no water vapour because of the way it’s produced, not because of any inherent property of nitrogen. If I wanted to be that particular about moisture in the gas I could make compressed air with no moisture just as easily.

As far as permeability goes, air is 80% nitrogen anyway (actually about 79%). If it was just the oxygen permeating the tube/tyre, we could get pretty close to pure nitrogen by just filling the tube with air, then letting all the oxygen disappear by itself. Makes you wonder why they bother with those expensive pressure swing and cryogenic plants to make pure nitrogen...
1
11/1/2019 12:59pm
ando wrote:
You guys should listen to Rick more closely. All gases (nitrogen, oxygen, air, water vapour) expand at the same rate. Been scientifically proven countless times. Bottled...
You guys should listen to Rick more closely.

All gases (nitrogen, oxygen, air, water vapour) expand at the same rate. Been scientifically proven countless times.

Bottled nitrogen contains no water vapour because of the way it’s produced, not because of any inherent property of nitrogen. If I wanted to be that particular about moisture in the gas I could make compressed air with no moisture just as easily.

As far as permeability goes, air is 80% nitrogen anyway (actually about 79%). If it was just the oxygen permeating the tube/tyre, we could get pretty close to pure nitrogen by just filling the tube with air, then letting all the oxygen disappear by itself. Makes you wonder why they bother with those expensive pressure swing and cryogenic plants to make pure nitrogen...
how long do we have to wait? 15 years for the oxygen to deplete? What about the other 6 elements, which ones will stay?
We do need nitrogen to make oil. Also steel, and ammonia.
There are people that think Anti-freeze cools a motor when it has no latent purpose aside lubrication, corrosion and freezing. 100% water Cools best and does all the work. They also think wind chill affects their motorcycle or car... heck, they even think the planet is ending in 11 years because of climate change 😂 Lots of misunderstandings and myths out there, and even with the planet ready to spontaneous combust 🌞 because of CO2, they will still mix their bike 32:1 without regard to our precious planet. God damn plastic straws, don’t get me started
3
2
PTshox
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Highland Village, TX US
11/1/2019 1:12pm
I've used a mtn bike shock pump for many a year on my rear motorcycle bladder shocks. Not one issue... couldn't tell the diff from a nitrogen charge from a bottle.

Stick with what works....
3
WhipMeister
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Big D, TX US
11/1/2019 3:32pm
Topics that cause instant Vital meltdown throwdowns:

Nitrogen v Oxygen
Villopoto v Dungey
Stewart v Anybody
2 stroke v 4 stroke
Oil-Gas premix ratio
MXGP v Anything else
Day v Night
Big boobs v Small Boobs
Anything about JLaw
.....


7
1
BroFoSho
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Tucson, AZ US
11/1/2019 4:21pm
Topics that cause instant Vital meltdown throwdowns: Nitrogen v Oxygen Villopoto v Dungey Stewart v Anybody 2 stroke v 4 stroke Oil-Gas premix ratio MXGP v...
Topics that cause instant Vital meltdown throwdowns:

Nitrogen v Oxygen
Villopoto v Dungey
Stewart v Anybody
2 stroke v 4 stroke
Oil-Gas premix ratio
MXGP v Anything else
Day v Night
Big boobs v Small Boobs
Anything about JLaw
.....


add

shifting with clutch vs. no clutch
cheap oil vs expensive oil
AV gas vs pump gas
3
11/1/2019 4:34pm
Topics that cause instant Vital meltdown throwdowns: Nitrogen v Oxygen Villopoto v Dungey Stewart v Anybody 2 stroke v 4 stroke Oil-Gas premix ratio MXGP v...
Topics that cause instant Vital meltdown throwdowns:

Nitrogen v Oxygen
Villopoto v Dungey
Stewart v Anybody
2 stroke v 4 stroke
Oil-Gas premix ratio
MXGP v Anything else
Day v Night
Big boobs v Small Boobs
Anything about JLaw
.....


You forgot left v right
1
alex69
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Location
NL
11/2/2019 3:32am
Topics that cause instant Vital meltdown throwdowns: Nitrogen v Oxygen Villopoto v Dungey Stewart v Anybody 2 stroke v 4 stroke Oil-Gas premix ratio MXGP v...
Topics that cause instant Vital meltdown throwdowns:

Nitrogen v Oxygen
Villopoto v Dungey
Stewart v Anybody
2 stroke v 4 stroke
Oil-Gas premix ratio
MXGP v Anything else
Day v Night
Big boobs v Small Boobs
Anything about JLaw
.....


You forgot left v right
Where's is the Tomac vs Herlings?
1
11/2/2019 5:35am
Seat bounce anyone?
1
11/2/2019 7:16am
Topics that cause instant Vital meltdown throwdowns: Nitrogen v Oxygen Villopoto v Dungey Stewart v Anybody 2 stroke v 4 stroke Oil-Gas premix ratio MXGP v...
Topics that cause instant Vital meltdown throwdowns:

Nitrogen v Oxygen
Villopoto v Dungey
Stewart v Anybody
2 stroke v 4 stroke
Oil-Gas premix ratio
MXGP v Anything else
Day v Night
Big boobs v Small Boobs
Anything about JLaw
.....


BroFoSho wrote:
add

shifting with clutch vs. no clutch
cheap oil vs expensive oil
AV gas vs pump gas
Don’t get people going on race gas. They would be real upset when they learn E10 pump gas has more oxygen than U4.4. Oxygen, simply being ethanol, methanol, or MTBE.
1
brocster
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Aliso Viejo, CA US
11/2/2019 11:08am
So where is all the oxidation from the air that has been in my forks all these years from rebuilds and more specifically recently when your bike came with an “air” pump? Think the “rocket science” behind rebuilding a shock and charging with n2 has eluded many over the years as we have been doing the ass opposite on our front forks since the beginning.

FYI. I am from Louisiana and had the most wet air you could possibly have (besides actual rain) inside my forks and probably shock without an issue or difference in feeling ever.
1
DA498
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Milliken, CO US
11/2/2019 12:56pm
how long do we have to wait? 15 years for the oxygen to deplete? What about the other 6 elements, which ones will stay? We do...
how long do we have to wait? 15 years for the oxygen to deplete? What about the other 6 elements, which ones will stay?
We do need nitrogen to make oil. Also steel, and ammonia.
There are people that think Anti-freeze cools a motor when it has no latent purpose aside lubrication, corrosion and freezing. 100% water Cools best and does all the work. They also think wind chill affects their motorcycle or car... heck, they even think the planet is ending in 11 years because of climate change 😂 Lots of misunderstandings and myths out there, and even with the planet ready to spontaneous combust 🌞 because of CO2, they will still mix their bike 32:1 without regard to our precious planet. God damn plastic straws, don’t get me started
Weren't tear offs something you are passionate about? Not straws?
mitch199
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11/20/2013
Location
AU
6/19/2026 11:44pm Edited Date/Time 6/19/2026 11:44pm

Doing a shock service today and pondered a bit - Recalled this thread from yesteryear funnily enough.

Seems Suzuki was happy to recommend refilling the shock on their 250 in 2006, using our globally available 79% mix. Don’t think gas laws have changed much since then. Todays shock will be getting air!

IMG 1760 7.jpeg?VersionId=lo7VHKAWKcnkyaOOoHMIIMG 1761 4

 

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shortty761
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Newport News, VA US
6/20/2026 9:24am

If you’re a hack job go ahead and use air.

Or do it the right way and use Nitrogen.

Stop cutting corners. Hopefully if you’re using air it’s for your own shock and not someone else’s.

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mx617
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Trail CA
6/20/2026 10:21am

Haha I always bitch about what a scam nitrogen in tires is. Makes exactly 0% difference for street cars. 

However I can see some very slight benefit for extreme uses (like racing). Buddy earlier talked about how all gases expand the same and it's been tested, and that is kinda true. Most gases follow the ideal gas law at low temperatures and pressures. But once we increase those, the gases do start behaving slightly different because things like the interaction of individual molecules become meaningful.  So a shock at 150-200psi  and what, 80 degrees Celsius would start to deviate from the ideal gas law. 

 

So for a use like a shock, using nitrogen vs air could provide maybe fractionally better consistency from cold to hot performance. Like maybe. 25% or .5%?  Very tiny benefit, but race teams are obviously looking for every tiny benefit they can find, so it's worth it for the predicability. 

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