Living the High life

Spoonguy
Posts
3332
Joined
2/28/2022
Location
Mc Kean, PA US
12/23/2025 4:01am

It is ironic that many of the people who dismiss peripheral celebrities that are on their way to becoming multi-multi-millionaires are the same people who bitch that it is so hard to get by in this country financially. Jake Paul and Haiden Deegan's aura and social sensibilities may not be anybody's cup of tea, but both prove that in America wealth is there for the taking if you want it. To all of those who state quasi-celebrities like those two have no dignity or class, grandpa always said the trailer parks are full of people who won't take other people's shit.

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26
truck
Posts
3466
Joined
6/10/2015
Location
Louisville, KY US
Fantasy
12/23/2025 4:25am

Imagine being late 20's and rich and hanging out with a teenager..... 

Deegan looks cringe for sure but that's nothing new for him so no big deal. Not a bad idea to hitch his wagon to this guy though, could probably fund the team when Deegans go out on their own some day.

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1
Johnny Ringo
Posts
7891
Joined
1/11/2016
Location
Tombstone, AZ US
12/23/2025 5:07am

Good muzzle control by deegs. 

Sully wrote:
Like Tyler said above, though, his complete lack of trigger discipline means the muzzle control will only cause him to blow a hole in the floor...

Like Tyler said above, though, his complete lack of trigger discipline means the muzzle control will only cause him to blow a hole in the floor of the aircraft rather than in one of the people onboard...

Trust the process, he’ll get there when it’s time

3strokemx
Posts
2305
Joined
9/2/2010
Location
US
12/23/2025 5:29am
Spoonguy wrote:
It is ironic that many of the people who dismiss peripheral celebrities that are on their way to becoming multi-multi-millionaires are the same people who bitch...

It is ironic that many of the people who dismiss peripheral celebrities that are on their way to becoming multi-multi-millionaires are the same people who bitch that it is so hard to get by in this country financially. Jake Paul and Haiden Deegan's aura and social sensibilities may not be anybody's cup of tea, but both prove that in America wealth is there for the taking if you want it. To all of those who state quasi-celebrities like those two have no dignity or class, grandpa always said the trailer parks are full of people who won't take other people's shit.

You're right, I'm gonna put my pride aside and start tricking out the women in my life.

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3

The Shop

yamathumb
Posts
145
Joined
3/11/2025
Location
Redding, CA US
12/24/2025 11:06pm
Spoonguy wrote:
It is ironic that many of the people who dismiss peripheral celebrities that are on their way to becoming multi-multi-millionaires are the same people who bitch...

It is ironic that many of the people who dismiss peripheral celebrities that are on their way to becoming multi-multi-millionaires are the same people who bitch that it is so hard to get by in this country financially. Jake Paul and Haiden Deegan's aura and social sensibilities may not be anybody's cup of tea, but both prove that in America wealth is there for the taking if you want it. To all of those who state quasi-celebrities like those two have no dignity or class, grandpa always said the trailer parks are full of people who won't take other people's shit.

3strokemx wrote:

You're right, I'm gonna put my pride aside and start tricking out the women in my life.

I instantly pictured a trailer park chick with anodized parts and moto stickers stuck to her all over the place. We ride our bikes and our women. Why not trick both out right. Lol

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tahoefd
Posts
498
Joined
12/29/2020
Location
Minden, NV US
12/25/2025 2:22pm
Spoonguy wrote:
It is ironic that many of the people who dismiss peripheral celebrities that are on their way to becoming multi-multi-millionaires are the same people who bitch...

It is ironic that many of the people who dismiss peripheral celebrities that are on their way to becoming multi-multi-millionaires are the same people who bitch that it is so hard to get by in this country financially. Jake Paul and Haiden Deegan's aura and social sensibilities may not be anybody's cup of tea, but both prove that in America wealth is there for the taking if you want it. To all of those who state quasi-celebrities like those two have no dignity or class, grandpa always said the trailer parks are full of people who won't take other people's shit.

3strokemx wrote:

You're right, I'm gonna put my pride aside and start tricking out the women in my life.

yamathumb wrote:
I instantly pictured a trailer park chick with anodized parts and moto stickers stuck to her all over the place. We ride our bikes and our...

I instantly pictured a trailer park chick with anodized parts and moto stickers stuck to her all over the place. We ride our bikes and our women. Why not trick both out right. Lol

That got the loudest laugh out of me ever on this site! Good job Yamathumb!!

1
12/25/2025 2:47pm
mxbmx wrote:

Sad state of the world when kids look at either of these 2 Muppets and want to emulate and idolize them. 

They’re both a product of rich narcissistic dads creating entitled narcissistic kids.

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5
Zacka 161
Posts
1615
Joined
7/30/2009
Location
Mount Waverley, VIC AU
12/25/2025 3:02pm
Spoonguy wrote:
It is ironic that many of the people who dismiss peripheral celebrities that are on their way to becoming multi-multi-millionaires are the same people who bitch...

It is ironic that many of the people who dismiss peripheral celebrities that are on their way to becoming multi-multi-millionaires are the same people who bitch that it is so hard to get by in this country financially. Jake Paul and Haiden Deegan's aura and social sensibilities may not be anybody's cup of tea, but both prove that in America wealth is there for the taking if you want it. To all of those who state quasi-celebrities like those two have no dignity or class, grandpa always said the trailer parks are full of people who won't take other people's shit.

America as we know it and motocross was built on the back of a thriving blue collar middle class with massive union membership.


Grandpa just decided to get a job and raise a family now the expectation is to be an influencer or an entrepreneur… wtf man.  wtf.

It’s not jealousy we are just watching the ongoing sad downfall of society. 

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8
kiwifan
Posts
9687
Joined
10/31/2009
Location
CA US
12/25/2025 3:04pm
Boomslang wrote:
It's the time we live in. Most of us are old school and cant get our head around the power of social media.One has to be...

It's the time we live in. Most of us are old school and cant get our head around the power of social media.

One has to be naive to think that Jack Paul has a low IQ. The dude is a effing genius and if you take time to read the above article, you might just realize how smart he is and how much he helps young startups gain traction. 

You don't have to like him but give the dude some credit. He hasn't committed crime to get to where he is today.

Deegs on the other hand achieved his success through hard work. For sure he had financial help from his parents. Like any father would do, Brian invested in Haiden and installed the work ethic needed to compete at Pro level.

 

True although he won't be much of a genius if he gets a few more hard knocks to the head in boxing 

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number six
Posts
375
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2/27/2019
Location
efnli77643qrv, FM US
12/25/2025 4:08pm

The times we live in. 
None of it works without a gullible population , it's a rapidly growing list of those who are ambitious enough to exploit a public who embraces & supports celebrity culture. 
The fact that many of the 'celebrities' are for the most part .. repulsive, matters little. 
Chicken or egg as it were.   Hilarious or tragic ?  You decide. 

8
1
ob
Posts
1751
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3/14/2010
Location
Cardiff , CA US
12/25/2025 4:38pm

I saw JP rollerblading around HB like 8 years ago on July 4th and thought what a kook. He’s still a kook no matter how much cash he’s made. Jr Deegan is still the same shit tid who used to ride the vet track at Pala, just richer and faster. Same kook. I wish I was as kooky and rich as them 

2
3
TeamGreen
Posts
36480
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11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA US
12/26/2025 6:55am
ob wrote:
I saw JP rollerblading around HB like 8 years ago on July 4th and thought what a kook. He’s still a kook no matter how much...

I saw JP rollerblading around HB like 8 years ago on July 4th and thought what a kook. He’s still a kook no matter how much cash he’s made. Jr Deegan is still the same shit tid who used to ride the vet track at Pala, just richer and faster. Same kook. I wish I was as kooky and rich as them 

THFTB: Too Honest For The Web

🤣

1
7
RDnutz
Posts
556
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Location
Dolores, CO US
12/26/2025 8:05am

before internet and social media there were many Leaders who set good examples publicly and privately. They were looked up to and given as examples as good productive citizens who others could learn from and maybe become successful themselves and have satisfying careers, families, and lives.

Fast forward to today, and we have: "influencers" instead of examples of good human beings to look up to and "followers" by the millions that can't think for themselves and live their lives through them and on-line 24/7. Nothing good will comes of this transformational societal implosion.

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1
SonofThor32
Posts
837
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5/30/2021
Location
Corryton, TN US
12/26/2025 8:11am
Mavetism wrote:

The 14 year old fans really have to enjoy this content.

No kidding.  Comments of "sad times we are living in" resonate here.  I am not sure what is more sad, the silly photo, or a bunch of people hatefully commenting on something without stopping to think "is this fake?" or "was this an attempt at humor?"

Definitely sad times we are living in.  People were not wired this way before social media.  

3
9
bvm111
Posts
10073
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Location
Las Vegas, NV US
12/26/2025 8:35am

he is “growing the sport” 

1
12/26/2025 8:40am Edited Date/Time 12/26/2025 8:41am
Spoonguy wrote:
It is ironic that many of the people who dismiss peripheral celebrities that are on their way to becoming multi-multi-millionaires are the same people who bitch...

It is ironic that many of the people who dismiss peripheral celebrities that are on their way to becoming multi-multi-millionaires are the same people who bitch that it is so hard to get by in this country financially. Jake Paul and Haiden Deegan's aura and social sensibilities may not be anybody's cup of tea, but both prove that in America wealth is there for the taking if you want it. To all of those who state quasi-celebrities like those two have no dignity or class, grandpa always said the trailer parks are full of people who won't take other people's shit.

Personally, anytime someone is talking to me about how much money another person has, I tune it right out and write off the person speaking. Why should I give a fuck about millionaires? Who cares? Its hilarious whenever you mention anything about celebrities being douchebags theres always that one person thats like "but look at how much money they have, you can't argue with that" as if thats somehow an indicator of whether I should like the person lmao. I'll never fanboy over someone elses financial situation, cant imagine living that way. 

30
1
3strokemx
Posts
2305
Joined
9/2/2010
Location
US
12/26/2025 9:20am
RDnutz wrote:
before internet and social media there were many Leaders who set good examples publicly and privately. They were looked up to and given as examples as...

before internet and social media there were many Leaders who set good examples publicly and privately. They were looked up to and given as examples as good productive citizens who others could learn from and maybe become successful themselves and have satisfying careers, families, and lives.

Fast forward to today, and we have: "influencers" instead of examples of good human beings to look up to and "followers" by the millions that can't think for themselves and live their lives through them and on-line 24/7. Nothing good will comes of this transformational societal implosion.

You think Evel Kneival was a good role model?

1
1
12/26/2025 9:26am
Spoonguy wrote:
It is ironic that many of the people who dismiss peripheral celebrities that are on their way to becoming multi-multi-millionaires are the same people who bitch...

It is ironic that many of the people who dismiss peripheral celebrities that are on their way to becoming multi-multi-millionaires are the same people who bitch that it is so hard to get by in this country financially. Jake Paul and Haiden Deegan's aura and social sensibilities may not be anybody's cup of tea, but both prove that in America wealth is there for the taking if you want it. To all of those who state quasi-celebrities like those two have no dignity or class, grandpa always said the trailer parks are full of people who won't take other people's shit.

Personally, anytime someone is talking to me about how much money another person has, I tune it right out and write off the person speaking. Why...

Personally, anytime someone is talking to me about how much money another person has, I tune it right out and write off the person speaking. Why should I give a fuck about millionaires? Who cares? Its hilarious whenever you mention anything about celebrities being douchebags theres always that one person thats like "but look at how much money they have, you can't argue with that" as if thats somehow an indicator of whether I should like the person lmao. I'll never fanboy over someone elses financial situation, cant imagine living that way. 

Exactly. Look at Epstein. 

Finances should be the very last and least important trait of a person. 

8
super_fan_38
Posts
245
Joined
9/25/2025
Location
Oak Harbor, WA US
12/26/2025 10:52am

A whole lot of jealousy in this thread. Jake Paul started a charity based, non-profit  program to help youth gain confidence through boxing, training, and renovating gyms.  Paul has also donated to charities, helping veterans and make-a-wish in the past.  As far as I can tell, Deegan has done very little other than do some peelouts in a parking lot and talk a big game. His biggest sin was being the son of a Metal Mulisha dude so a lot of you carried your hate over. Set your standards higher and stop acting like you're better than other people because they don't fit in your little box of how a person should be. 

afvx9m

49
Spoonguy
Posts
3332
Joined
2/28/2022
Location
Mc Kean, PA US
12/26/2025 1:25pm
Spoonguy wrote:
It is ironic that many of the people who dismiss peripheral celebrities that are on their way to becoming multi-multi-millionaires are the same people who bitch...

It is ironic that many of the people who dismiss peripheral celebrities that are on their way to becoming multi-multi-millionaires are the same people who bitch that it is so hard to get by in this country financially. Jake Paul and Haiden Deegan's aura and social sensibilities may not be anybody's cup of tea, but both prove that in America wealth is there for the taking if you want it. To all of those who state quasi-celebrities like those two have no dignity or class, grandpa always said the trailer parks are full of people who won't take other people's shit.

Personally, anytime someone is talking to me about how much money another person has, I tune it right out and write off the person speaking. Why...

Personally, anytime someone is talking to me about how much money another person has, I tune it right out and write off the person speaking. Why should I give a fuck about millionaires? Who cares? Its hilarious whenever you mention anything about celebrities being douchebags theres always that one person thats like "but look at how much money they have, you can't argue with that" as if thats somehow an indicator of whether I should like the person lmao. I'll never fanboy over someone elses financial situation, cant imagine living that way. 

Exactly. Look at Epstein. 

Finances should be the very last and least important trait of a person. 

The point is don't cry about how hard it to get by when there are people who set goals and go after them. Nobody is stating that this is the ideal persona. But it is an example that in America you can get ahead in a lot of different ways. Only in America man.

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12/26/2025 2:14pm
A whole lot of jealousy in this thread. Jake Paul started a charity based, non-profit  program to help youth gain confidence through boxing, training, and renovating...

A whole lot of jealousy in this thread. Jake Paul started a charity based, non-profit  program to help youth gain confidence through boxing, training, and renovating gyms.  Paul has also donated to charities, helping veterans and make-a-wish in the past.  As far as I can tell, Deegan has done very little other than do some peelouts in a parking lot and talk a big game. His biggest sin was being the son of a Metal Mulisha dude so a lot of you carried your hate over. Set your standards higher and stop acting like you're better than other people because they don't fit in your little box of how a person should be. 

afvx9m

I’m definitely NOT a Jake Paul fan, but he has done some good things that can’t be denied. He says stupid shit and makes himself look like way more of an idiot than he actually is. Terrible role model and I doubt he cares..  

Haiden is the hottest “American” SX/MX racer at the moment and is reaping the benefits. He is earning the fortune that he’s making, nobody can dispute that ! I could do without his antics and he really needs to grow up and keep his mouth shut. He’s not doing good job at becoming a role model for up and coming kids or any kids for that matter. 

Unfortunately for you, you’ve tarnished your name on here with your ignorant “SuperFan” Deegan posts. I don’t see that changing and unless you enjoy the downvotes and criticism, you might want to start over with a new account and try and maintain yourself. I’m guessing you might enjoy the attention ? I’m sure it’s just the Trolling that you enjoy, but it’s getting old. 

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12/26/2025 2:18pm
EAmato88 wrote:

I agree. No shot this is real

The Jake Paul post appears to be real. Is the cash real ? Who knows..  

but I’d be willing to bet that Haiden was added with AI, if you look at the money on the floor, it appears to be untouched. 

IMG 2327 0.jpeg?VersionId=1Nu8ZX2j3KvP3GuzmPTu.l9voIMG 2326

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1
Zacka 161
Posts
1615
Joined
7/30/2009
Location
Mount Waverley, VIC AU
12/26/2025 2:36pm
Personally, anytime someone is talking to me about how much money another person has, I tune it right out and write off the person speaking. Why...

Personally, anytime someone is talking to me about how much money another person has, I tune it right out and write off the person speaking. Why should I give a fuck about millionaires? Who cares? Its hilarious whenever you mention anything about celebrities being douchebags theres always that one person thats like "but look at how much money they have, you can't argue with that" as if thats somehow an indicator of whether I should like the person lmao. I'll never fanboy over someone elses financial situation, cant imagine living that way. 

Exactly. Look at Epstein. 

Finances should be the very last and least important trait of a person. 

Spoonguy wrote:
The point is don't cry about how hard it to get by when there are people who set goals and go after them. Nobody is stating...

The point is don't cry about how hard it to get by when there are people who set goals and go after them. Nobody is stating that this is the ideal persona. But it is an example that in America you can get ahead in a lot of different ways. Only in America man.

To me the most worrying thing is how little the moto community gives a shit about the working class roots of the sport.  

Middle class union jobs built America and built motocross. The origins of the sport is built on the ethos of ‘get a union job, race bikes, raise a family live in a community with work life balance’


 Now it ‘build a brand, hustle, grind, be an entrepreneur’. And if you don’t you’re accused of jealousy.


This is a working class middle class sport and so few on this forum give a shit. Wtf people. wtf. 

1
5
3strokemx
Posts
2305
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Location
US
12/26/2025 3:38pm

HAYDEN IF ur redding this, dont listen to the boomers on hear its not ur job to control sosieaty if u post a fire pic its just a pic, its not like ur president or anything an it relly dont madder

20
davis224
Posts
7344
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8/15/2006
Location
Cornland, IL US
Fantasy
12/26/2025 3:49pm

I hate the culture of worshipping the people who are famous because they're rich and rich because they're famous. I mean, good for them for capitalizing on something that nets them millions, so I guess this more of a "don't hate the player, hate the game" scenario. The game being a net loss to society, just endless rage bait on social media, of which I'm contributing to its popularity by commenting on this.

7
byke
Posts
2934
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Location
Auburn, CA US
12/26/2025 4:02pm
A whole lot of jealousy in this thread. Jake Paul started a charity based, non-profit  program to help youth gain confidence through boxing, training, and renovating...

A whole lot of jealousy in this thread. Jake Paul started a charity based, non-profit  program to help youth gain confidence through boxing, training, and renovating gyms.  Paul has also donated to charities, helping veterans and make-a-wish in the past.  As far as I can tell, Deegan has done very little other than do some peelouts in a parking lot and talk a big game. His biggest sin was being the son of a Metal Mulisha dude so a lot of you carried your hate over. Set your standards higher and stop acting like you're better than other people because they don't fit in your little box of how a person should be. 

afvx9m

McDonalds also started the Ronald McDonald House Charities to help sick kids. It seems nice at first, but what they're really doing is making their business indispensable so that children literally die if you ever tried to get them to stop contributing to the obesity and diabetes and heart disease epidemic that kills more Americans than anything else in the United States. Whenever toxic people do nice things, it's not altruism, it's self-preservation. 

3
7
Spoonguy
Posts
3332
Joined
2/28/2022
Location
Mc Kean, PA US
12/26/2025 4:28pm

Exactly. Look at Epstein. 

Finances should be the very last and least important trait of a person. 

Spoonguy wrote:
The point is don't cry about how hard it to get by when there are people who set goals and go after them. Nobody is stating...

The point is don't cry about how hard it to get by when there are people who set goals and go after them. Nobody is stating that this is the ideal persona. But it is an example that in America you can get ahead in a lot of different ways. Only in America man.

Zacka 161 wrote:
To me the most worrying thing is how little the moto community gives a shit about the working class roots of the sport.  Middle class union...

To me the most worrying thing is how little the moto community gives a shit about the working class roots of the sport.  

Middle class union jobs built America and built motocross. The origins of the sport is built on the ethos of ‘get a union job, race bikes, raise a family live in a community with work life balance’


 Now it ‘build a brand, hustle, grind, be an entrepreneur’. And if you don’t you’re accused of jealousy.


This is a working class middle class sport and so few on this forum give a shit. Wtf people. wtf. 

I get it, I really do. I grew up poor, broken home, all that boring shit. But I came up through it, missing meals so my tractor had fuel at times. I think unfortunately the times of union jobs and forty hour weeks with a stay at home mom, a camp, private schools for the kids, and regular vacations is over. It is an international/global economy. That being said, there is still plenty of people out there looking to pay people to do things, it's just more difficult - not impossible.

Spoonguy
Posts
3332
Joined
2/28/2022
Location
Mc Kean, PA US
12/26/2025 4:42pm
A whole lot of jealousy in this thread. Jake Paul started a charity based, non-profit  program to help youth gain confidence through boxing, training, and renovating...

A whole lot of jealousy in this thread. Jake Paul started a charity based, non-profit  program to help youth gain confidence through boxing, training, and renovating gyms.  Paul has also donated to charities, helping veterans and make-a-wish in the past.  As far as I can tell, Deegan has done very little other than do some peelouts in a parking lot and talk a big game. His biggest sin was being the son of a Metal Mulisha dude so a lot of you carried your hate over. Set your standards higher and stop acting like you're better than other people because they don't fit in your little box of how a person should be. 

afvx9m

byke wrote:
McDonalds also started the Ronald McDonald House Charities to help sick kids. It seems nice at first, but what they're really doing is making their business...

McDonalds also started the Ronald McDonald House Charities to help sick kids. It seems nice at first, but what they're really doing is making their business indispensable so that children literally die if you ever tried to get them to stop contributing to the obesity and diabetes and heart disease epidemic that kills more Americans than anything else in the United States. Whenever toxic people do nice things, it's not altruism, it's self-preservation. 

I never knew McDonalds forced people to eat their swill at gunpoint. I haven't eaten their shit in at least 40 years myself. Their nutritional information is provided by them at every fucking restaurant they own, by the thousands. Indispensable indeed. All these people bitch about Amazon, McDonalds, and Walmart - don't fucking shop there. And if those companies succeed your bitch is with their satisfied happy customers those companies fulfill a need to, not the company fulfilling the market. You are always welcome to start your own company to compete against them if your moral superiority is so market attractive. Good companies welcome competition it makes them stronger. Didn't Bezos start with an unmarried single teenage mom, maybe not?

2
2
byke
Posts
2934
Joined
8/12/2015
Location
Auburn, CA US
12/26/2025 4:59pm
A whole lot of jealousy in this thread. Jake Paul started a charity based, non-profit  program to help youth gain confidence through boxing, training, and renovating...

A whole lot of jealousy in this thread. Jake Paul started a charity based, non-profit  program to help youth gain confidence through boxing, training, and renovating gyms.  Paul has also donated to charities, helping veterans and make-a-wish in the past.  As far as I can tell, Deegan has done very little other than do some peelouts in a parking lot and talk a big game. His biggest sin was being the son of a Metal Mulisha dude so a lot of you carried your hate over. Set your standards higher and stop acting like you're better than other people because they don't fit in your little box of how a person should be. 

afvx9m

byke wrote:
McDonalds also started the Ronald McDonald House Charities to help sick kids. It seems nice at first, but what they're really doing is making their business...

McDonalds also started the Ronald McDonald House Charities to help sick kids. It seems nice at first, but what they're really doing is making their business indispensable so that children literally die if you ever tried to get them to stop contributing to the obesity and diabetes and heart disease epidemic that kills more Americans than anything else in the United States. Whenever toxic people do nice things, it's not altruism, it's self-preservation. 

Spoonguy wrote:
I never knew McDonalds forced people to eat their swill at gunpoint. I haven't eaten their shit in at least 40 years myself. Their nutritional information...

I never knew McDonalds forced people to eat their swill at gunpoint. I haven't eaten their shit in at least 40 years myself. Their nutritional information is provided by them at every fucking restaurant they own, by the thousands. Indispensable indeed. All these people bitch about Amazon, McDonalds, and Walmart - don't fucking shop there. And if those companies succeed your bitch is with their satisfied happy customers those companies fulfill a need to, not the company fulfilling the market. You are always welcome to start your own company to compete against them if your moral superiority is so market attractive. Good companies welcome competition it makes them stronger. Didn't Bezos start with an unmarried single teenage mom, maybe not?

None of that opposes anything I said, but keep fighting that good fight.

5
super_fan_38
Posts
245
Joined
9/25/2025
Location
Oak Harbor, WA US
12/26/2025 10:31pm
byke wrote:
McDonalds also started the Ronald McDonald House Charities to help sick kids. It seems nice at first, but what they're really doing is making their business...

McDonalds also started the Ronald McDonald House Charities to help sick kids. It seems nice at first, but what they're really doing is making their business indispensable so that children literally die if you ever tried to get them to stop contributing to the obesity and diabetes and heart disease epidemic that kills more Americans than anything else in the United States. Whenever toxic people do nice things, it's not altruism, it's self-preservation. 

You're not be forthright here. When McDonald's started this charity, it had very good motivations. These days, not so much. But you see, you, or me, or anyone else can give to RMHC aside from buying a cheeseburger and putting some coins in a box, and you know this. Corporate altruism will always be suspect, but I fail to see how your point is analogous to Jake Paul starting a non-profit since you have not shown in any way how it is self-serving, or needed to keep the machine alive. You have simply assumed that Jake is toxic and therefore must have ulterior motivations.  

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