No Eli Talk - just fitness and why your're wrong

truck
Posts
3848
Joined
6/10/2015
Location
Louisville, KY, USA
Fantasy
5/29/2025 1:15pm
aees wrote:
Happens all the time, late moto charge tempo. Chase from last to first (full moto). Herlings from last to first. Tomas 2015. PED? Nope.Deegan is teenager...

Happens all the time, late moto charge tempo. Chase from last to first (full moto). Herlings from last to first. Tomas 2015. PED? Nope.

Deegan is teenager. They have an advantage, besides genes.

truck wrote:
Natural peak for cardiovascular fitness is not teenage years. Jmart talked about this in a pod recently as one of the reasons guys have figured out...

Natural peak for cardiovascular fitness is not teenage years. Jmart talked about this in a pod recently as one of the reasons guys have figured out they can race longer and don't have to retire at 26.

aees wrote:

It's not peak. Young people, up to teen age don't produce as much lactic acid and have much better aerobic capabilities.

This isn't true. Go look at anything that measures vo2 max with age. 

1
5/29/2025 1:17pm
cable wrote:
Who has the thickest neck and when did this start? Eli’s looks pretty normal. The other winners, you decide.
UpTiTe wrote:
Think about this, I’m going back about 10-15 years because it the most obvious. This is now out dated technology due to them blood testing too...

Think about this, I’m going back about 10-15 years because it the most obvious. This is now out dated technology due to them blood testing too, but some continue because it’s cheap and will pass a piss test. 

Secretion inhibitors in simple terms is used to mask anabol and testosterone by not letting the kidneys filter them out through urine, so it undetectable through a piss test. 

The side effect of secretion inhibitors are the same symptoms of food poisoning, IBS, and stomachaches.

 Go back as early as 2001 and look at the riders who continued to get mysterious stomach bugs, shit their pants during a race, missed a race in Vegas do to stomach problems, missed their race do to food poisoning etc etc. 

The words blood testing is a huge flag too   

Like I’ve said, there are tells, you just need to know where to look. 

truck wrote:
Along these same lines, the number of healthy young men in general society who have thyroid disease approaches zero.... in moto this gets talked about like...

Along these same lines, the number of healthy young men in general society who have thyroid disease approaches zero.... in moto this gets talked about like it's the common cold. 

Epo production is stimulated by partial pressure of oxygen in blood so hard to mimic without changing the atmospheric pressure you're in. Masks don't change the oxygen content of the air you're breathing in. Could probably mimic it by breathing in air with higher nitrogen content mixed in but that's how the south executes people now so wouldn't recommend it.

Eli training at altitude certainly would give him a bump in hemoglobin. Goes up a point for every 2000-3000 feet of altitude but takes time to adapt and get there. This is one of the benefits of Olympic training center being in Colorado as well. 

I didn’t even think about mentioning the thyroid, and the following illness. 

 Thyroid issues,  and the enviable “Epstein Barr” sickness that follows is a sure sign someone is coming off a cycle. 

 Look at how many riders come into the supercross season sick, and how many come into outdoors feeling under the weather. 

1
2
5/29/2025 1:20pm
aees wrote:
No, give me a rider that you think would bump up in the result list if the used PED. Shouldn't be that hard since it has...

No, give me a rider that you think would bump up in the result list if the used PED. Shouldn't be that hard since it has such an impact on how a rider would perform.

Chance Hymas. 

(Assuming he isn’t already on some kind of program)

He holeshot. He led. He had the fastest lap time of the race. He faded and finished ten seconds + behind the winner. 

If Chance isn’t on PEDs already, if he took EPO he would fade less. He might not win. But he might not be 10 seconds behind either. 

1
aeffertz
Posts
12660
Joined
7/16/2015
Location
La Crosse, WI, USA
5/29/2025 1:20pm
Doping started much earlier, strychnine was used in the Ancient Olympics 776BC to 394AD, testosterone was used in the 1930s, Human growth hormone use started in...

Doping started much earlier, strychnine was used in the Ancient Olympics 776BC to 394AD, testosterone was used in the 1930s, Human growth hormone use started in the 1950s.

I think the ancient Roman's PED's would've landed them on a Suzuki these days. 

The Shop

5/29/2025 1:26pm
UpTiTe wrote:

That’s a question I’ve been asking for years. Once you get an answer, please let ”US” know. 

Matt414 wrote:
This quote is from a road cycling magazine talking about cycling and doping, but it fits for moto.  “Listening to the average cyclist talk about doping...

This quote is from a road cycling magazine talking about cycling and doping, but it fits for moto.  

“Listening to the average cyclist talk about doping is like a 4th grader finding a playboy and explaining sex to his friends at school”

As someone that spent nearly 10 years in the USADA testing pool, and has likely been tested as many or more times than nearly any athlete in moto, most everyone here has it very wrong when it comes to all of this.

Well we’re all ears Matt. 

Tell us how it is… 

Tell us how we’re getting it wrong. 

No need to hold anything back.

Can somebody check up on Matt414? 

He’s got all this knowledge, but won’t share it with us.. c’mon Matthew.. tell us what you know..

IMG 7569 0
2
2
truck
Posts
3848
Joined
6/10/2015
Location
Louisville, KY, USA
Fantasy
5/29/2025 1:31pm
aees wrote:

So give me a rider that would make the jump on EPO please.

I'm fully aware of PED. Probably more than most here.

truck wrote:
A better question is give me a rider who wouldn't? This is no different than Ti bolts or a thousand other miniscule advantages that guys perceive...

A better question is give me a rider who wouldn't? This is no different than Ti bolts or a thousand other miniscule advantages that guys perceive others as having. It's the same thing everyone in baseball and cycling used to convince themselves of. I'm not cheating and I'd be just as good without it, but it's what I have to do to keep up and make things fair. 

A lot of the stuff these guys get sold is just placebo and guys getting rich but if you don't think blood doping helps endurance athletes I don't know what to tell you? 

aees wrote:
No, give me a rider that you think would bump up in the result list if the used PED. Shouldn't be that hard since it has...

No, give me a rider that you think would bump up in the result list if the used PED. Shouldn't be that hard since it has such an impact on how a rider would perform.

You are basically arguing that having better fitness doesn't matter for moto results. I don't know, man.....

2
1
APLMAN99
Posts
12664
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Tualatin, OR, USA
Fantasy
5/29/2025 1:40pm
Totally missing the point. Take Two riders. With very similar, if not the same level of fitness and skill. One goes on a EPO programme, the other stays natural. Is...

Totally missing the point. 

Take Two riders.

 With very similar, if not the same level of fitness and skill. 

One goes on a EPO programme, the other stays natural. 

Is there a benefit? 

When EPO increases red blood cell production, oxygen supply to muscles is enhanced. This increases stamina – the ability to exert energy and remain active for a long period of time.

TbonesPop wrote:
No, I didn't miss the point.  I just don't believe one rider to the next will have the exact same level of skill and talent -...

No, I didn't miss the point.  I just don't believe one rider to the next will have the exact same level of skill and talent - no two riders have the exact same skill set.  I believe the top 0.1% of riders at the Pro MX/SX level are differentiated by skill and talent over fitness, and no I don't believe having more fitness via an advantage from a pill will fix at talent deficiency with respect to throttle control, corner speed, line choice, race craft, braking, scrub skill, etc. 

Can a magic pill take a regular LCQ rider and make him to the top 10-15?  Ok, maybe - because the skills of the riders at that level are more common.  But is Kevin Moranz going to take a magic pill and turn into Jett Lawrence?  No, he's not.  Good luck proving that.

If you are looking for an argument, look elsewhere.  Nobody wins an argument.  Both people walk away thinking they are right and the other person is wrong.   I'm perfectly fine walking away from the discussion.  You're not going to change my mind.

soggy wrote:
OkLet’s compare two riders Webb and tomac. I think everyone would agree they have different skill sets but still manage to go about the same speed...

Ok


Let’s compare two riders Webb and tomac. I think everyone would agree they have different skill sets but still manage to go about the same speed on a SX track over a 20 minute main. So while they might not have the same skill set it averages out pretty close over a 20 minute main. Your hypothesis is if one of them was on an EPO program that allowed them to get more oxygen to their muscles(and brain) it wouldn’t improve there stamina, decision making and focus? It wouldn’t influence the results at all?

Or…..

More strength and stamina to recover from the hundreds of little injuries during a season along with the ability to practice more and longer thereby increasing their already high skill level. 

And so on. 

PEDs aid in physical performance. Even with shorter motos and races than in the 70s, the sport(s) of MX and SX are still incredibly physically demanding. It’s not just the race day physical exertion, it’s the preparation to be able to compete at that level also. 

I don’t think that most people deny that there are likely athletes in MX/SX pushing the envelope or even intentionally using banned substances. But accusations without proof against any individual rider is just rumor. 

1
MotoDad32
Posts
244
Joined
7/23/2017
Location
Beverly Hills, CA, USA
5/29/2025 2:12pm
GrapeApe wrote:

Ulrich was admittedly doping and had the same stuff available as Armstrong in '01. 

Yes, but his program wasn't as advanced as the US Postal Team program.  So true they were all doing it, some were just doing it better than others.

2
1
GrapeApe
Posts
8903
Joined
6/7/2010
Location
Mc Kinney, TX, USA
5/29/2025 2:12pm
aees wrote:

Benefit is not the same as generating a better result in mx.

MotoDad32 wrote:

Maybe this will give you a different perspective, from someone that's been there and done that.  

😂 Dude went full tilt just to qualify for an arenacross. Was that supposed to be a parody?

MotoDad32
Posts
244
Joined
7/23/2017
Location
Beverly Hills, CA, USA
5/29/2025 2:16pm
GrapeApe wrote:

😂 Dude went full tilt just to qualify for an arenacross. Was that supposed to be a parody?

Lol.  No, just someone who has been there (at some level) and is willing to speak openly about the reality of the situation in the sport.  

MXRalph
Posts
379
Joined
11/13/2022
Location
Sacramento, CA, USA
5/29/2025 2:29pm
Matt414 wrote:
This quote is from a road cycling magazine talking about cycling and doping, but it fits for moto.  “Listening to the average cyclist talk about doping...

This quote is from a road cycling magazine talking about cycling and doping, but it fits for moto.  

“Listening to the average cyclist talk about doping is like a 4th grader finding a playboy and explaining sex to his friends at school”

As someone that spent nearly 10 years in the USADA testing pool, and has likely been tested as many or more times than nearly any athlete in moto, most everyone here has it very wrong when it comes to all of this.

Well we’re all ears Matt. 

Tell us how it is… 

Tell us how we’re getting it wrong. 

No need to hold anything back.

Can somebody check up on Matt414? He’s got all this knowledge, but won’t share it with us.. c’mon Matthew.. tell us what you know..

Can somebody check up on Matt414? 

He’s got all this knowledge, but won’t share it with us.. c’mon Matthew.. tell us what you know..

IMG 7569 0

He pops into every thread that ends up discussing PEDs just to talk down to those commenting and let everyone know he used to get tested, so he's smarter than everyone else on the subject.

2
5/29/2025 2:30pm

My elevated red blood cells must be knock off, because all I noticed was severe arm pump that I can’t shake no matter what. Then again my form is garbage. 

What about IV hydration? I feel like that would be incredibly easy to hide, and very useful for a second moto 

2
Chris_Buehler
Posts
8499
Joined
7/21/2019
Location
PORTLAND, CT, USA
5/29/2025 2:42pm
Even if PEDs only gave a 0.1% bump to physical performance, at the elite level that's huge. Also, how are people so dumb that they have...

Even if PEDs only gave a 0.1% bump to physical performance, at the elite level that's huge. Also, how are people so dumb that they have never seen a pro rider get tired? if you can use PEDs to delay fatigue even by a tiny amount you have a better chance of winning. Speaking of winning, all this talk of PEDs not transforming 5th to 10th guys into winners misses the point! Maybe using PEDs is what's keeping them in 5th to 10th place, a place that means you can make a damn good living riding Moto. 

 

Does that mean everyone is doping? No, but there's enough incentive that makes testing a logical thing to do. 

 

Especially in mx when we're talking about fractions of a second here and there adding up over a lap. I dont take any stance on whether they're being used or not. But lots of people with their heads buried in the sand on whether they would actually benefit the riders

3
1
aees
Posts
2806
Joined
8/20/2015
Location
USA
5/29/2025 2:48pm
truck wrote:
A better question is give me a rider who wouldn't? This is no different than Ti bolts or a thousand other miniscule advantages that guys perceive...

A better question is give me a rider who wouldn't? This is no different than Ti bolts or a thousand other miniscule advantages that guys perceive others as having. It's the same thing everyone in baseball and cycling used to convince themselves of. I'm not cheating and I'd be just as good without it, but it's what I have to do to keep up and make things fair. 

A lot of the stuff these guys get sold is just placebo and guys getting rich but if you don't think blood doping helps endurance athletes I don't know what to tell you? 

aees wrote:
No, give me a rider that you think would bump up in the result list if the used PED. Shouldn't be that hard since it has...

No, give me a rider that you think would bump up in the result list if the used PED. Shouldn't be that hard since it has such an impact on how a rider would perform.

truck wrote:

You are basically arguing that having better fitness doesn't matter for moto results. I don't know, man.....

Still, No one has given med a rider name that would have gone from 5-10 to 1-3 in the result list if they did PED.

You know why? It rarely falls on that. It's not that important in our sport, if you already are at an elite level.

That means risk vs reward is not like in other sports.

I'm not saying it doesn't do anything, but to move you in the top 10 results list? Or go from close to champion to closing the deal?

How many titles has been lost due to poor stamina, lack of strength, last 10 years you think? 

6
5/29/2025 2:55pm
truck wrote:
Along these same lines, the number of healthy young men in general society who have thyroid disease approaches zero.... in moto this gets talked about like...

Along these same lines, the number of healthy young men in general society who have thyroid disease approaches zero.... in moto this gets talked about like it's the common cold. 

Epo production is stimulated by partial pressure of oxygen in blood so hard to mimic without changing the atmospheric pressure you're in. Masks don't change the oxygen content of the air you're breathing in. Could probably mimic it by breathing in air with higher nitrogen content mixed in but that's how the south executes people now so wouldn't recommend it.

Eli training at altitude certainly would give him a bump in hemoglobin. Goes up a point for every 2000-3000 feet of altitude but takes time to adapt and get there. This is one of the benefits of Olympic training center being in Colorado as well. 

That Hypothyroid comes from chronic overtraining and not eating enough. Body goes to starvation/preserve mode.

5/29/2025 2:56pm
My elevated red blood cells must be knock off, because all I noticed was severe arm pump that I can’t shake no matter what. Then again...

My elevated red blood cells must be knock off, because all I noticed was severe arm pump that I can’t shake no matter what. Then again my form is garbage. 

What about IV hydration? I feel like that would be incredibly easy to hide, and very useful for a second moto 

I thought the giys do have IV hydration in their rigs. Maybe somebody on the inside can confirm. 

aees
Posts
2806
Joined
8/20/2015
Location
USA
5/29/2025 2:56pm
aees wrote:
No, give me a rider that you think would bump up in the result list if the used PED. Shouldn't be that hard since it has...

No, give me a rider that you think would bump up in the result list if the used PED. Shouldn't be that hard since it has such an impact on how a rider would perform.

Chance Hymas. (Assuming he isn’t already on some kind of program)He holeshot. He led. He had the fastest lap time of the race. He faded and finished...

Chance Hymas. 

(Assuming he isn’t already on some kind of program)

He holeshot. He led. He had the fastest lap time of the race. He faded and finished ten seconds + behind the winner. 

If Chance isn’t on PEDs already, if he took EPO he would fade less. He might not win. But he might not be 10 seconds behind either. 

So not really worth it for someone that's after a championship. Because it would not make or brake getting the title.

You would do it, if that was The thing holding you back constantly. But for pretty much all of them, it's not. So it's a waste, and you risk your entire career. A career where few has made so much money, they can afford to risk it. The ones that has made money, don't need it.

1
5/29/2025 3:00pm
My elevated red blood cells must be knock off, because all I noticed was severe arm pump that I can’t shake no matter what. Then again...

My elevated red blood cells must be knock off, because all I noticed was severe arm pump that I can’t shake no matter what. Then again my form is garbage. 

What about IV hydration? I feel like that would be incredibly easy to hide, and very useful for a second moto 

I thought the giys do have IV hydration in their rigs. Maybe somebody on the inside can confirm. 

I believe it’s not aloud. Supposedly Stewart would have a traveling nurse stop by his motorhome between motos, but who knows. 

 

1
5/29/2025 3:00pm

For the EPO curious, Armstrong said in a pod (maybe rich roll?) that EPO was a 10% boost on power. Keep in mind thats from a crank based power meter. Applying that to moto isnt going to be 10% better, because its less oxygen usage on a bicycle mostly seated. 

2
aees
Posts
2806
Joined
8/20/2015
Location
USA
5/29/2025 3:00pm
aees wrote:

Benefit is not the same as generating a better result in mx.

MotoDad32 wrote:

Maybe this will give you a different perspective, from someone that's been there and done that.  

You bring in Hopper? 😂

What you have next for us, something juicy from Cooksey? 😂

That's as reliable as the Orange Clown 👍

1
5/29/2025 3:09pm
My elevated red blood cells must be knock off, because all I noticed was severe arm pump that I can’t shake no matter what. Then again...

My elevated red blood cells must be knock off, because all I noticed was severe arm pump that I can’t shake no matter what. Then again my form is garbage. 

What about IV hydration? I feel like that would be incredibly easy to hide, and very useful for a second moto 

A couple guys got caught doing itt in the past. 

Some do it, but Unless you have a motohome there it’s hard to do. 

2
5/29/2025 3:14pm
My elevated red blood cells must be knock off, because all I noticed was severe arm pump that I can’t shake no matter what. Then again...

My elevated red blood cells must be knock off, because all I noticed was severe arm pump that I can’t shake no matter what. Then again my form is garbage. 

What about IV hydration? I feel like that would be incredibly easy to hide, and very useful for a second moto 

UpTiTe wrote:

A couple guys got caught doing itt in the past. 

Some do it, but Unless you have a motohome there it’s hard to do. 

Do you think these guys would use a SARM like GW501506 cardarine? I know that gives an instant boost in cardio and performance, but at the cost of potentially a much higher risk of cancer, depending on which studies you read 

1
kzizok
Posts
8425
Joined
10/19/2010
Location
USA
5/29/2025 3:27pm Edited Date/Time 5/29/2025 3:27pm

He also lives and trains at altitude, giving him a higher concentration of red blood cells than his competition.

That is a very debatable and controversial concept and proof both ways on the concept. Do you live low and train high or live high and train high, etc.  In other words, there is no real objective proof either way, so for now, its a non starter. 

MotoDad32
Posts
244
Joined
7/23/2017
Location
Beverly Hills, CA, USA
5/29/2025 4:28pm
kzizok wrote:
That is a very debatable and controversial concept and proof both ways on the concept. Do you live low and train high or live high and...

That is a very debatable and controversial concept and proof both ways on the concept. Do you live low and train high or live high and train high, etc.  In other words, there is no real objective proof either way, so for now, its a non starter. 

el_donn
Posts
71
Joined
2/3/2025
Location
Alpine, CA, USA
5/29/2025 4:42pm

Genetics are the answer. When in history have you ever seen Brian Deegan not in shape? Even in the late 90’s and early 2000’s the dude was shredded and that was before physical training was a mainstay in moto like it is now, especially freestyle. Plus the dude was probably partying quite a bit and still looked more fit than 95% of dudes out there. Now look at his son who has the same genetics, apparently the same if not better work ethic and started training at an incredibly young age. It’s not that hard to comprehend. Do some guys use PED’s in moto? Maybe. But I cant see him risking a lifetime’s worth of work when he already has a solid base, an insane amount of talent and the resources he has had growing up. 

7
5/29/2025 4:42pm
TbonesPop wrote:
No amount of doping is going to help a rider with throttle control, braking technique, ability to scrub, and corner speed.  It absolutely won't do anything...

No amount of doping is going to help a rider with throttle control, braking technique, ability to scrub, and corner speed.  It absolutely won't do anything for a rider's ability to find the fastest lines on an ever-changing MX track and be able to adjust to a track changing throughout the race and still being able to find the fastest lines.  Fitness isn't what holds the regular top 5-15 place guys from being top 5 or top 3.  It's technique, talent, skill, experience and what's between the ears.  No PED on the market is going to be a magic pill to make top 5-15 guys be top 3.

A magic pill that removes fear may be beneficial for some riders!

That dosent help either, when younger, many times I came straight from the rave to the track, still fired up, and still finished mid pack C grade.

2
2
5/29/2025 4:47pm
My elevated red blood cells must be knock off, because all I noticed was severe arm pump that I can’t shake no matter what. Then again...

My elevated red blood cells must be knock off, because all I noticed was severe arm pump that I can’t shake no matter what. Then again my form is garbage. 

What about IV hydration? I feel like that would be incredibly easy to hide, and very useful for a second moto 

UpTiTe wrote:

A couple guys got caught doing itt in the past. 

Some do it, but Unless you have a motohome there it’s hard to do. 

Do you think these guys would use a SARM like GW501506 cardarine? I know that gives an instant boost in cardio and performance, but at the...

Do you think these guys would use a SARM like GW501506 cardarine? I know that gives an instant boost in cardio and performance, but at the cost of potentially a much higher risk of cancer, depending on which studies you read 

Cardarine is not a SARM but usually found amongst that group.

 

5/29/2025 4:51pm
UpTiTe wrote:

A couple guys got caught doing itt in the past. 

Some do it, but Unless you have a motohome there it’s hard to do. 

Do you think these guys would use a SARM like GW501506 cardarine? I know that gives an instant boost in cardio and performance, but at the...

Do you think these guys would use a SARM like GW501506 cardarine? I know that gives an instant boost in cardio and performance, but at the cost of potentially a much higher risk of cancer, depending on which studies you read 

Cardarine is not a SARM but usually found amongst that group.

 

What is it exactly? Just curious 

soggy
Posts
8809
Joined
12/3/2018
Location
USA
5/29/2025 5:21pm
aees wrote:
No, give me a rider that you think would bump up in the result list if the used PED. Shouldn't be that hard since it has...

No, give me a rider that you think would bump up in the result list if the used PED. Shouldn't be that hard since it has such an impact on how a rider would perform.

truck wrote:

You are basically arguing that having better fitness doesn't matter for moto results. I don't know, man.....

aees wrote:
Still, No one has given med a rider name that would have gone from 5-10 to 1-3 in the result list if they did PED.You know...

Still, No one has given med a rider name that would have gone from 5-10 to 1-3 in the result list if they did PED.

You know why? It rarely falls on that. It's not that important in our sport, if you already are at an elite level.

That means risk vs reward is not like in other sports.

I'm not saying it doesn't do anything, but to move you in the top 10 results list? Or go from close to champion to closing the deal?

How many titles has been lost due to poor stamina, lack of strength, last 10 years you think? 

Chance Hymas, Ty masterpool, juju. Haiden would be even better. It would benefit literally almost any rider. Your putting arbitrary place finishes and on it that don’t matter. 

soggy
Posts
8809
Joined
12/3/2018
Location
USA
5/29/2025 5:22pm
TbonesPop wrote:
No amount of doping is going to help a rider with throttle control, braking technique, ability to scrub, and corner speed.  It absolutely won't do anything...

No amount of doping is going to help a rider with throttle control, braking technique, ability to scrub, and corner speed.  It absolutely won't do anything for a rider's ability to find the fastest lines on an ever-changing MX track and be able to adjust to a track changing throughout the race and still being able to find the fastest lines.  Fitness isn't what holds the regular top 5-15 place guys from being top 5 or top 3.  It's technique, talent, skill, experience and what's between the ears.  No PED on the market is going to be a magic pill to make top 5-15 guys be top 3.

A magic pill that removes fear may be beneficial for some riders!

That dosent help either, when younger, many times I came straight from the rave to the track, still fired up, and still finished mid pack C...

That dosent help either, when younger, many times I came straight from the rave to the track, still fired up, and still finished mid pack C grade.

Cocaine and ecstasy is a hell of a combo. 

2

Post a reply to: No Eli Talk - just fitness and why your're wrong

The Latest