KTM to file for Bankruptcy/ Self Restructuring on Friday

Hammer 663s
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Hammer 663s 1/30/2025 7:01am
1/30/2025 7:01am
Team403 wrote:
Can we talk about the ballooning debt the past few  years?seems hard to believe buying some low level bicycle co and overproduction made much of a...

Can we talk about the ballooning debt the past few  years?

seems hard to believe buying some low level bicycle co and overproduction made much of a dent here.  Is this simply the compounding effect of higher %, MXGP, etc…?

 

Beagle wrote:
That's the main thing to me, I would like to understand how much of that crazy surge in debt is due to variable interests and stuff...

That's the main thing to me, I would like to understand how much of that crazy surge in debt is due to variable interests and stuff like that.

When you gain almost 2B debt in 2 years, 0.046B a year to race MotoGP is a rounding error, even with MXGP, SMX, Dakar and everything, total racing costs were 0.095B in 2023.

Remember, 600M of this debt (almost 1/3) is held by PMG subsidiaries. They were cannibalizing the business to fund unsustainable growth. Wouldn't be surprised if that's why the BoD was dissolved - I'm sure someone had to be asking WTF are we doing here? 

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indy rider
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indy rider 1/30/2025 7:23am
1/30/2025 7:23am Edited Date/Time 1/30/2025 7:23am
Team403 wrote:
Can we talk about the ballooning debt the past few  years?seems hard to believe buying some low level bicycle co and overproduction made much of a...

Can we talk about the ballooning debt the past few  years?

seems hard to believe buying some low level bicycle co and overproduction made much of a dent here.  Is this simply the compounding effect of higher %, MXGP, etc…?

 

Beagle wrote:
That's the main thing to me, I would like to understand how much of that crazy surge in debt is due to variable interests and stuff...

That's the main thing to me, I would like to understand how much of that crazy surge in debt is due to variable interests and stuff like that.

When you gain almost 2B debt in 2 years, 0.046B a year to race MotoGP is a rounding error, even with MXGP, SMX, Dakar and everything, total racing costs were 0.095B in 2023.

Well, besides interest rates going up, they continued to spend borrowed $ like it was free. They just had purchased that foundry that went tits up. Then there's the MV Agusta purchase, the new KTM Cali headquarters, an expensive foray into the bike market that failed. If my quick math is correct, they likely have somewhere around a billion tied up in the couple hundred thousand bikes they've built and warehoused. Just to name a few factors.  

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Tim507
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Tim507 1/30/2025 8:04am
1/30/2025 8:04am

The Ego has an important place in our lives until one gives it the power to rule…….

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Kyle978
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Kyle978 1/30/2025 8:08am
1/30/2025 8:08am

Really hoping there's some hookers and blow to go with this story. 

11

The Shop

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SonofThor32
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SonofThor32 1/30/2025 8:10am
1/30/2025 8:10am

This could not have helped much either:

2025-01-30 11-09-33
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Team403
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Team403 1/30/2025 9:02am
1/30/2025 9:02am
SonofThor32 wrote:
This could not have helped much either:

This could not have helped much either:

2025-01-30 11-09-33

Wow guess I didn’t realize they were so deep into the car stuff - that alone could peg the needle

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MPJC
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MPJC 1/30/2025 10:25am
1/30/2025 10:25am
SonofThor32 wrote:
This could not have helped much either:

This could not have helped much either:

2025-01-30 11-09-33
the-homer-inline2.jpeg?VersionId=csY8QoqrY2
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startbuttonarmpump 1/30/2025 10:38am
1/30/2025 10:38am
Kyle978 wrote:

Really hoping there's some hookers and blow to go with this story. 

At least they could have some fun, why'll "Rome burns".

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Cayden Thompson 1/30/2025 11:47am
1/30/2025 11:47am
Kyle978 wrote:

Really hoping there's some hookers and blow to go with this story. 

Wolf of Wallstreet style

1
JazzyJJ
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JazzyJJ 1/30/2025 12:23pm
1/30/2025 12:23pm
Kyle978 wrote:

Really hoping there's some hookers and blow to go with this story. 

startbuttonarmpump wrote:

At least they could have some fun, why'll "Rome burns".

startbuttonarmpump wrote:

*While

You can edit your posts

1
GrapeApe
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GrapeApe 1/30/2025 12:40pm
1/30/2025 12:40pm Edited Date/Time 1/30/2025 12:47pm
Kyle978 wrote:

Really hoping there's some hookers and blow to go with this story. 

The administrator reduced that expense to Tijuana donkey shows and El Toro Gold tequila

4
Kyle978
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Kyle978 1/30/2025 12:56pm
1/30/2025 12:56pm
Kyle978 wrote:

Really hoping there's some hookers and blow to go with this story. 

GrapeApe wrote:

The administrator reduced that expense to Tijuana donkey shows and El Toro Gold tequila

Either way, I'm down.

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Team403
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Team403 1/30/2025 1:31pm
1/30/2025 1:31pm

I looked at various manufacturing facilities in Mattighofen on google earth.  Lots of assets in that area.  What is value on the BS?

j368
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j368 1/30/2025 4:52pm
1/30/2025 4:52pm Edited Date/Time 1/30/2025 4:53pm
Spoonguy wrote:
In and out of this thread. Many of us owe on mortages, business loans, student and car loans. But the banks don't often state they want...

In and out of this thread. Many of us owe on mortages, business loans, student and car loans. But the banks don't often state they want it all back NOW. So KTM has been called on it to pay everything back NOW, and supposedly can come up with 30% now, do the not have to come up with the additional 70% ever? Why were they even asked to pay all their credit back now anyways, interest on 2B seems doable for them? None of this was long term debt? Did there creditors just lose trust or is KTM actually defaulting on something specific?

j368 wrote:
A, either they defaulted on a loan or paying late. Or B, the Banks looked at the debt and liquidity and made the call for KTM...

A, either they defaulted on a loan or paying late. Or B, the Banks looked at the debt and liquidity and made the call for KTM to pay up. The fine print in most loans and lines of credit give the lender the option to call the loan at anytime. 

Money wrote:

So now what?

Gotta wait for the guys in the suits at the Banks to decide what they want to do. Their gonna do whatever it takes to recoup as much as they can, as fast as they can. Ultimately the Bankers are calling the shots IMO. 

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Last2Stroke 1/30/2025 5:03pm
1/30/2025 5:03pm
Team403 wrote:

I looked at various manufacturing facilities in Mattighofen on google earth.  Lots of assets in that area.  What is value on the BS?

Some of those "assets" are new...

image 1082image 1081
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Spooner
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Spooner 1/30/2025 5:21pm
1/30/2025 5:21pm
Team403 wrote:
Can we talk about the ballooning debt the past few  years?seems hard to believe buying some low level bicycle co and overproduction made much of a...

Can we talk about the ballooning debt the past few  years?

seems hard to believe buying some low level bicycle co and overproduction made much of a dent here.  Is this simply the compounding effect of higher %, MXGP, etc…?

 

On the bicycle side they were going heavily into E-bikes.  But the crazy thing is they were developing their own motors and suspension too so they were basically making everything but the drivetrain, wheels, and brakes.  No other brand really does that.  And the fact they were starting from scratch had to have cost a crazy amount of money.  Then theres the fact that those bikes just came out the last few months when all the big players are blowing out bikes for a fraction of retail and use motors and suspension from normal brands that people know will be around in the future if they have issues.  Proprietary stuff is always a bad thing long term, especially when you're new on the scene.

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ThreadKill
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ThreadKill 1/30/2025 5:47pm
1/30/2025 5:47pm
SonofThor32 wrote:
This could not have helped much either:

This could not have helped much either:

2025-01-30 11-09-33

Let me know we these start hitting the auction block.

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Pit Row

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MXRalph
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MXRalph 1/30/2025 6:02pm
1/30/2025 6:02pm
SonofThor32 wrote:
This could not have helped much either:

This could not have helped much either:

2025-01-30 11-09-33
MPJC wrote:
the-homer-inline2.jpeg?VersionId=csY8QoqrY2

Did you just call it "rack and peanut steering"? 

2
Team403
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Team403 1/30/2025 6:56pm
1/30/2025 6:56pm
Team403 wrote:
Can we talk about the ballooning debt the past few  years?seems hard to believe buying some low level bicycle co and overproduction made much of a...

Can we talk about the ballooning debt the past few  years?

seems hard to believe buying some low level bicycle co and overproduction made much of a dent here.  Is this simply the compounding effect of higher %, MXGP, etc…?

 

Spooner wrote:
On the bicycle side they were going heavily into E-bikes.  But the crazy thing is they were developing their own motors and suspension too so they...

On the bicycle side they were going heavily into E-bikes.  But the crazy thing is they were developing their own motors and suspension too so they were basically making everything but the drivetrain, wheels, and brakes.  No other brand really does that.  And the fact they were starting from scratch had to have cost a crazy amount of money.  Then theres the fact that those bikes just came out the last few months when all the big players are blowing out bikes for a fraction of retail and use motors and suspension from normal brands that people know will be around in the future if they have issues.  Proprietary stuff is always a bad thing long term, especially when you're new on the scene.

Guess I’m out of the loop on the latest emtb - my wife GG has a yamaha motor and my kids husky has a shimano motor.  

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Spooner
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Spooner 1/31/2025 7:01am
1/31/2025 7:01am
Team403 wrote:
Guess I’m out of the loop on the latest emtb - my wife GG has a yamaha motor and my kids husky has a shimano motor...

Guess I’m out of the loop on the latest emtb - my wife GG has a yamaha motor and my kids husky has a shimano motor.  

Correct, every other brand uses a motor from one of 4-5 brands. A couple will modify them a bit, but the base is still purchased from someone else.  I don't know that they ever got their motors to production but I THINK they have some WP suspension on some models I haven't really paid attention to it that close as I wouldn't buy one until they are very established. 

grunkster
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grunkster 1/31/2025 8:12am
1/31/2025 8:12am

Did dealers get rebate info for feb today?

mxpappy711
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mxpappy711 1/31/2025 8:18am
1/31/2025 8:18am
MxAddic wrote:

They defaulted on paying their factory workers. Does that count? 

They were paid by the government? Unemployment? 

MxAddic
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MxAddic 1/31/2025 8:20am
1/31/2025 8:20am
mxpappy711 wrote:

They were paid by the government? Unemployment? 

Hard to sort the details. The court documents indicate 12.x Mil owned to employees.

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Beagle
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Beagle 1/31/2025 8:57am
1/31/2025 8:57am
mxpappy711 wrote:

They were paid by the government? Unemployment? 

MxAddic wrote:

Hard to sort the details. The court documents indicate 12.x Mil owned to employees.

€20.3 million is owed to workers at KTM AG, KTM Components AG and KTM F&E AG, either in the form of back wages or dismissal packages.

https://motomatters.com/news/2025/01/24/ktm_s_24_billion_debts_largest…

stiksandstones 1/31/2025 9:43am
1/31/2025 9:43am
Team403 wrote:
Can we talk about the ballooning debt the past few  years?seems hard to believe buying some low level bicycle co and overproduction made much of a...

Can we talk about the ballooning debt the past few  years?

seems hard to believe buying some low level bicycle co and overproduction made much of a dent here.  Is this simply the compounding effect of higher %, MXGP, etc…?

 

Spooner wrote:
On the bicycle side they were going heavily into E-bikes.  But the crazy thing is they were developing their own motors and suspension too so they...

On the bicycle side they were going heavily into E-bikes.  But the crazy thing is they were developing their own motors and suspension too so they were basically making everything but the drivetrain, wheels, and brakes.  No other brand really does that.  And the fact they were starting from scratch had to have cost a crazy amount of money.  Then theres the fact that those bikes just came out the last few months when all the big players are blowing out bikes for a fraction of retail and use motors and suspension from normal brands that people know will be around in the future if they have issues.  Proprietary stuff is always a bad thing long term, especially when you're new on the scene.

Have a source on PMG/GasGas/Husky developing their own motors? I am pretty deep into bikes and never heard of this. Sounds cool though.

2
stiksandstones 1/31/2025 9:45am
1/31/2025 9:45am
Team403 wrote:
Can we talk about the ballooning debt the past few  years?seems hard to believe buying some low level bicycle co and overproduction made much of a...

Can we talk about the ballooning debt the past few  years?

seems hard to believe buying some low level bicycle co and overproduction made much of a dent here.  Is this simply the compounding effect of higher %, MXGP, etc…?

 

Spooner wrote:
On the bicycle side they were going heavily into E-bikes.  But the crazy thing is they were developing their own motors and suspension too so they...

On the bicycle side they were going heavily into E-bikes.  But the crazy thing is they were developing their own motors and suspension too so they were basically making everything but the drivetrain, wheels, and brakes.  No other brand really does that.  And the fact they were starting from scratch had to have cost a crazy amount of money.  Then theres the fact that those bikes just came out the last few months when all the big players are blowing out bikes for a fraction of retail and use motors and suspension from normal brands that people know will be around in the future if they have issues.  Proprietary stuff is always a bad thing long term, especially when you're new on the scene.

Team403 wrote:
Guess I’m out of the loop on the latest emtb - my wife GG has a yamaha motor and my kids husky has a shimano motor...

Guess I’m out of the loop on the latest emtb - my wife GG has a yamaha motor and my kids husky has a shimano motor.  

Yes, in addition to Yamaha motor, Bosch, Shimano, GasGas was also one of the key partners in the new SRAM edrive motor (Eagle Powertrain) but i've heard or seen nothing about them developing their own. But spooner please share so we can keep this thread free of misinformation.

ChurchOfBrap 1/31/2025 9:50am
1/31/2025 9:50am

For those of u knowledgeable About all this, would u buy a new KTM, or avoid the brand all together ?

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BH_84
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BH_84 1/31/2025 9:58am
1/31/2025 9:58am

Some positive news. KTM is working on development for their 2027 MotoGP bike. This is big because there's a new rule set coming for '27, new motors, new chassis, new fuels, new aero restrictions. To me, that says they are confident that not only will the company be okay, but that they plan to keep racing in 2027 and beyond. Before this the reports were that they would bow out of MotoGP entirely at the end of 2026. 

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/1062475/1/2027-ktm-motogp-bike-early-…

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quadzrulebro 1/31/2025 9:58am
1/31/2025 9:58am Edited Date/Time 1/31/2025 3:18pm

I just heard today there is a stop sale and recall on Gas Gas and Husqvarna bikes with Braktec brakes. I hope this isn’t one of the companies they owe money to.  If so, replacement parts might be hard to get.

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