Eli Tomac and DV12 on Sag Set Up

Is that a SX specific setting? I would think that with tacky dirt and less high speed stuff it might work, but that sounds sketchy as hell on a fast flowy MX track. Also might be easier to get away with on super stiff forks that don't let the bike weight transfer much if at all on flat ground?

KTM factory team when Dungey was racing used 98mm of sag on 16-18 chassi on his 450. That's for SX. 102 outdoors. 

I get armpump right away if I run to high rear, way to much effort needed to push bike down in rear when needed. 

Yeap famous for that, for me it's the opposite. Guess anatomy plays a role here also. 

I've noticed this about Jett's setup, ever since he's been on the 450, not just SX but MX also. Seems like it really stays up in the stroke and doesn't waste travel. It's funny, I was thinking about it just last week as I've been playing with spring rates and sags on me and my brothers bikes. I decided to do a Google search to see if there was any discussion on the Lawrence's setup. Google returned this video. In it they say that Jett runs 95mm, and I think this was in reference to his outdoor 450 setup. Vid is from Dec '23.

https://youtu.be/btz9WAF1Hlg?si=B8VbEaA6HqOjnhwo

Same for me. Im tall and like Plessinger, I want the rear as low as I can get away with.

With much stiffer forks the bike would be very unbalanced if you didn’t stiffen up the rear. Using pro SX racers as a reference for the rest of us is probably a bad idea. 
In the world of streetbike track setup, there are recommendations for front and rear sag. They are complimentary. 

As easy as it is to change sag it is worth a try if you get arm pump.

I heard that as well. Funny thing is I’ve ran my sag between 100-102 for the last 30 years on Honda’s and Ktm’s. Always had the proper springs and valving for my weight but the bike always seemed to work better for me at those numbers. 

Same - maybe it's body position? but my '23 xc350 corners much better 102 sag more weight on the front helps me.

I would assume this is solely for SX. 

None of us are ringing the neck off of a fully built 450 like Tomac is, so our suspension doesn't see nearly the same level of load shift as his. I've been around long enough to have learned not to base my setup on anything I see the pros doing. I've seen handlebars go from way forward to way back, frames needing to be stiffer to frames needing to be softer, to stiffer again. Shorter pipes, longer pipes, dual pipes, single pipes again. 

I think you would want your suspension to be valved for that sag, I don't think it would be a great idea to try to run that sag with your current set up. You're going to be much higher in the stroke, I would think it would be really soft initially because you should be further down in the stroke. 

I also don't know shit so maybe someone can correct me. 

Part of why Eli might run a really high back end is how aggressive he is with the throttle.  In the gypsy interview he talks about how a stock 450 feels really slow and he wants a rocket ship.. with all that power being used it might cause a bike with a more traditional set up to squat too much.  With a high rear end he can use all that power and the bike squats to a level he's more comfortable with.

That was some wild info. They were talking about preload in lieu of sag measurement. I guess that means set the spring to a length and fuggeddabout the rest. And some of the sags when measured were 80mm. That is some serious front end pressure. 

Closer to 95 mm

I'm sure it varied with time. They where using 98mm when I was there visiting them and talking to the factory team about setup for the new chassi. At that time they had been on the bike for a year. 

That just goes to show its all about rider "feelings".

Wouldn’t be surprised if a few of those Star Yamaha bikes are set-up similarly, outdoors even. When 2023 YZ450F was intro’d, the Yamaha techs were dead set on 95mm sag and 7mm fork height. As time progresses, the new norm seems to be 102-105mm sag and 2-5mm fork height. Same chassis, just a different consumer-spec philosophy.

The ones who throw the throttle to the stop (ET3, HD38) probably appreciate that high rear-end and possibly even a lengthened shock shaft to go with those older/longer swingarms 👍

I think those numbers spooked everybody more than the actual handling of the bike because they were very different to what is considered standard. I run between 93-95mm depending on track conditions with my forks at 6mm on my Yamaha but admittedly my local tracks are tighter and slower than national style tracks. I also think it is bike dependent too, when I was on Hondas I would be at 102-104 with a 1.5mm lowering link as the front already had enough pressure. I remember hearing when Alex Martin was at TLD ktm he was running 90mm sag with a lowered linkage in outdoors. 

Yeah generally you would assume, rear high, quicker turning in SX and then more of neutral or even chopper for outdoors. I have a 24 YZ250F and I do run the sag around 98 as compared to the standard 104-105 I would run on the previous gen bike, but I also run the forks flush. 

It is interesting to see such a drastic change though. 

Saw a post from Jimmy Decotis that reminded me of this thread: 

id be willing to bet some factory shocks are a different length than stock, making "sag" meaningless for determining rake (f/r bias, not front end geo). in this case, sag would only be good for comparing actual spring rate compared to same spring WEIGHT

IOW 7 variables:
1- shock eye to eye length at full droop

2- shock eye to eye length "static" no rider

3-shock eye to eye sagged with rider

4-spring weight

5-spring length

6-spring preload

7- BONUS: linkage ratio curve

is sag not meaningless in isolation at the factory level?
 

I have usually run 90-95mm of sag on my Yamahas for about 25 years now. I feel like they turn better without the rear settling down as much in turns. I definitely do have to run the fork a little stiffer on compression, though. 
Like some have mentioned, it's probably not a good idea to go Full Tomac on your bike setup, as we don't go nearly as fast or hard as he does. (Never go full Tomac!)

Old slow vet rider on a 23 KX450 with pro circuit linkage and ride engineering 22 mm offset triple clamps.. I like my rear end sag usually around 108.. 105 sometimes feels good but at times can feel too high in the rear.. 108 generally feels really good to me with the forks up about 3 mm. With this setting I sometimes worry about using up too much suspension travel but I don't think two or three little millimeters is going to make that much of a difference at my speed.. Do you guys think I'm leaving any handling or suspension performance on the table by running a higher SAG number (lower rear end)?

You’re good. The kawis like a lower rear. If it feels good run it. Maybe try 106 & see if that’s still good 

I remember 100mm being the standard back in the day. Then it started growing.....like 110, 115 etc. Now we're talking about sag in the high 80s and low 90s. And in the end, some genius is going to descend from the heavens to declare that 100mm is the way to go. LOL! 

I don't know how it happened but one day I blinked and turned into an old man. #backinmyday.... 😅