KTM to file for Bankruptcy/ Self Restructuring on Friday

GrapeApe
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12/16/2024 1:58pm
LungButter wrote:
@MxAddic  do you work in finance day to day?  Not taking a shot at you, genuinely curious as it does seem like you have a lot...

@MxAddic  do you work in finance day to day?  Not taking a shot at you, genuinely curious as it does seem like you have a lot of knowledge about this stuff.

His area of expertise seems to shift thread by thread. Sometimes finance, sometimes legal, I'm sure there's a medical degree in there somewhere. When pressed by someone that actually has knowledge or understanding he tends to pee down his leg. I think the official job title is "internet know-it-all".

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MxAddic
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12/16/2024 2:10pm
Beagle wrote:
David Emmett has a good summary,"Massive overstock and missed sales targets in both its motorcycle and bicycle business has forced the Austrian manufacturer to file...

David Emmett has a good summary,

"Massive overstock and missed sales targets in both its motorcycle and bicycle business has forced the Austrian manufacturer to file for a preliminary form of bankruptcy protection."

There's nothing nefarious about this, they've taken decisions that turned out very bad for the company, in a very short timeframe.

The program is clear:

"The first creditors' report and hearing for the three KTM companies filing for bankruptcy protection - KTM AG, KTM Components, and R&D arm KTM F&E - is set for December 20th. A second hearing will take place on January 24th of 2025, with a final vote being taken by the creditors on February 25th. At that February hearing, creditors holding at least 50% of the debt have to agree to the restructuring plan."

February 25th is when we'll know if the banks are convinced by the restructuration and if PMG can be saved from itself.

lol,

"KTM's failure to honor previously made commitments will not help its cause. The firm has filed for bankruptcy protection under so-called self-administration, which allows the existing management board to stay in place and oversee the restructuring. Failing to honor commitments to its workers is not likely to fill the company's creditors with confidence. And that is precisely what KTM CEO Stefan Pierer so badly needs."

Stefan is doing everything he can to make sure it cannot.

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BAREIN
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12/16/2024 2:11pm
mxrose3 wrote:

Just curious, but how much are people seeing the dealers let a new or leftover KTM 450 or 350 go for lately?  

BAREIN wrote:
I have been watching dual sport prices, it seems as if the Gas Gas models have the biggest discounts at a hair over 4k off list...

I have been watching dual sport prices, it seems as if the Gas Gas models have the biggest discounts at a hair over 4k off list price. looks like the MX models are around 3500-4 off. I can get a new Gas Gas for less than people are asking for used 500 EXC around here

yak651 wrote:

Yes but gas gas resale value is terrible 

Exactly why I have not pulled the trigger yet. If I knew I would keep it for an extended period of time I would buy one. Chances are the brand might be gone and it will even be worse

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MxAddic
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12/16/2024 2:16pm Edited Date/Time 12/16/2024 2:18pm
GrapeApe wrote:
His area of expertise seems to shift thread by thread. Sometimes finance, sometimes legal, I'm sure there's a medical degree in there somewhere. When pressed by...

His area of expertise seems to shift thread by thread. Sometimes finance, sometimes legal, I'm sure there's a medical degree in there somewhere. When pressed by someone that actually has knowledge or understanding he tends to pee down his leg. I think the official job title is "internet know-it-all".

The only thing that has shifted is the clown posse is busting my balls about something else. Rent Free?

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The Shop

Spurdo
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12/16/2024 2:42pm

The thing that surprised me the most here - I blocked "MXAddic"s spam replies from my feed, and this thread got 9 pages shorter!

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MxAddic
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12/16/2024 2:56pm
free
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GrapeApe
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12/16/2024 3:05pm Edited Date/Time 12/16/2024 3:05pm
GrapeApe wrote:
His area of expertise seems to shift thread by thread. Sometimes finance, sometimes legal, I'm sure there's a medical degree in there somewhere. When pressed by...

His area of expertise seems to shift thread by thread. Sometimes finance, sometimes legal, I'm sure there's a medical degree in there somewhere. When pressed by someone that actually has knowledge or understanding he tends to pee down his leg. I think the official job title is "internet know-it-all".

MxAddic wrote:

The only thing that has shifted is the clown posse is busting my balls about something else. Rent Free?

For the second time today . . . huh?

MxAddic
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12/16/2024 3:08pm
GrapeApe wrote:

For the second time today . . . huh?

Can you prove I peed on my leg?

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JazzyJJ
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12/16/2024 3:14pm
Spurdo wrote:

The thing that surprised me the most here - I blocked "MXAddic"s spam replies from my feed, and this thread got 9 pages shorter!

How would one do such a thing if they were so inclined?

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Silas444
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12/16/2024 5:20pm
Spurdo wrote:

The thing that surprised me the most here - I blocked "MXAddic"s spam replies from my feed, and this thread got 9 pages shorter!

JazzyJJ wrote:

How would one do such a thing if they were so inclined?

My thoughts exactly, and I think the vast majority of this place is perhaps curious as well. 

So please - do tell - how?

 

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12/16/2024 5:30pm Edited Date/Time 12/16/2024 5:35pm
Team403 wrote:
Think about it - all Yam really has to do drop the 450 a 100cc on the X model and offer a estart 300 yz  and...

Think about it - all Yam really has to do drop the 450 a 100cc on the X model and offer a estart 300 yz  and they could easily flip the script in off-road.   Neither of those two initiatives seems very challenging. I really like my KTM but if something happens I’m prob heading Blue.

early wrote:

This is more baffling than the PMG bankruptcy.

How many years would it take to recover the millions of dollars of R&D, coding/programing and tooling? If it were easy and profitable, it’d be done already! 

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12/16/2024 5:45pm
Team403 wrote:
Think about it - all Yam really has to do drop the 450 a 100cc on the X model and offer a estart 300 yz  and...

Think about it - all Yam really has to do drop the 450 a 100cc on the X model and offer a estart 300 yz  and they could easily flip the script in off-road.   Neither of those two initiatives seems very challenging. I really like my KTM but if something happens I’m prob heading Blue.

early wrote:

This is more baffling than the PMG bankruptcy.

tcannon521 wrote:
How many years would it take to recover the millions of dollars of R&D, coding/programing and tooling? If it were easy and profitable, it’d be done...

How many years would it take to recover the millions of dollars of R&D, coding/programing and tooling? If it were easy and profitable, it’d be done already! 

All of that has already been done for them by their European engine partner, Fantic

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Team403
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12/16/2024 6:23pm
Team403 wrote:
Think about it - all Yam really has to do drop the 450 a 100cc on the X model and offer a estart 300 yz  and...

Think about it - all Yam really has to do drop the 450 a 100cc on the X model and offer a estart 300 yz  and they could easily flip the script in off-road.   Neither of those two initiatives seems very challenging. I really like my KTM but if something happens I’m prob heading Blue.

early wrote:

This is more baffling than the PMG bankruptcy.

tcannon521 wrote:
How many years would it take to recover the millions of dollars of R&D, coding/programing and tooling? If it were easy and profitable, it’d be done...

How many years would it take to recover the millions of dollars of R&D, coding/programing and tooling? If it were easy and profitable, it’d be done already! 

Well if PMG goes tits up they will have wished they already had it to market.

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early
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12/16/2024 6:57pm
Team403 wrote:
Think about it - all Yam really has to do drop the 450 a 100cc on the X model and offer a estart 300 yz  and...

Think about it - all Yam really has to do drop the 450 a 100cc on the X model and offer a estart 300 yz  and they could easily flip the script in off-road.   Neither of those two initiatives seems very challenging. I really like my KTM but if something happens I’m prob heading Blue.

early wrote:

This is more baffling than the PMG bankruptcy.

tcannon521 wrote:
How many years would it take to recover the millions of dollars of R&D, coding/programing and tooling? If it were easy and profitable, it’d be done...

How many years would it take to recover the millions of dollars of R&D, coding/programing and tooling? If it were easy and profitable, it’d be done already! 

They got at least 15 years out of the current cylinder and cases. They could offer GYTR 300 cylinder and electric start kits without even changing the current YZ250X.

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user760a
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12/16/2024 7:17pm

The Japanese play follow the leader with each other.... they are not really innovators. Everyone knows a good Japanese 350 would sell like hotcakes.... but they are too focused on the standard 250/450 offerings to give people what they want.

 

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Team403
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12/16/2024 7:26pm
user760a wrote:
The Japanese play follow the leader with each other.... they are not really innovators. Everyone knows a good Japanese 350 would sell like hotcakes.... but they...

The Japanese play follow the leader with each other.... they are not really innovators. Everyone knows a good Japanese 350 would sell like hotcakes.... but they are too focused on the standard 250/450 offerings to give people what they want.

 

Kinda funny - I’d like to know how many people got out of dirt bikes all together because a 450 was too much and 250 not enough… i personally know several that did.. 

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MxAddic
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12/16/2024 7:28pm
user760a wrote:
The Japanese play follow the leader with each other.... they are not really innovators. Everyone knows a good Japanese 350 would sell like hotcakes.... but they...

The Japanese play follow the leader with each other.... they are not really innovators. Everyone knows a good Japanese 350 would sell like hotcakes.... but they are too focused on the standard 250/450 offerings to give people what they want.

 

I think the real problem is they didn't want to compete with KTM.

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JMX82
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12/17/2024 12:24am
KTMs one saving grace right now seems to be that Bajaj and CFMoto will still be pumping out product for 2026. The new 390 and 125...

KTMs one saving grace right now seems to be that Bajaj and CFMoto will still be pumping out product for 2026. The new 390 and 125 Enduro R and Supermotos and the LC8c builds are still in the build pipeline

Unfortunately it seems that 125 and 390 models seems be the ones that are sitting in the dealer floors at least here in Finland. Only few unsold -24 motocross and enduro bikes here available and discounts for those are quite moderate 

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Cortami79
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12/17/2024 5:09am

As i wrote in another thread about this topic on this forum, I've bought a 2025 KTM 250SXF last week. Went to the dealer I've been buying bikes from since 2017 (and my dad bought most of his bikes since the 1970s there) and we had a long chat about the situation.

I've bought a CRF250 this summer at another place. Amazing bike, but the lack of power - and to a certain point quality - made me decide to sell it and get back on KTM. To be really honest, I wanted to buy a Triumph. But I don't have enough references at my local track to be totally convinced it's a premium product. I think the Triumph is, but the nearest dealer is more then two hours away from me. So my options are limited for the deep sand in Holland and Belgium. 

As said, we had a long chat about the situation. His take on it, most of it already described in this thread. I thought it was cool to share:

- GasGas / Husky will be taken to the sidelines for the near future. KTM will be the main focus again.

- Overproduction and positive sales forecast hurt them big time. They will now create production levels similar to 2022. With the amount of bikes being limited, it will balance out demand. They just released the factory edition for 2025.

- Debt situation with the banks is also an issue in Austria. Pierer KTM can play it both ways, as the government is scratching their head what the economical damage would be if they go totally bankrupt. The total workforce around the area being dependent on KTM is really big, so they will have to work together to convince the banks to cooperate with the restructuring plan.

- Their biggest suppliers will obviously be paid first, the smaller suppliers could be in trouble. KTM had a lot of reliability issues. 

- Bajaj group will attend these restructuring meetings as well. They can 'easily' cover the debt, that's why he isn't concerned too much with the current issue. KTM may go bankrupt, but a headstart/takeover is definitely an option. KTM will stick around for the future, in some way. You also have Red Bull as a possible buyer for a takeover, even though this was debunked a few times in this thread.

- Automotive company Leoni, was sold for a majority stake as well, to Chinese company Luxshare. Pierer had a majority stake in this one. https://www.gpone.com/en/2024/12/03/motogp/peter-vogl-restructuring-manager-ktm-ag-will-continue.html

Another interesting article: https://www.gpone.com/en/2024/11/30/motogp/creditors-stefan-pierer-digs-into-his-pockets-to-save-ktm.html

Few weeks to go for the KTM group. Hopefully the employees will get their money.

 

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early
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12/17/2024 5:19am

Saw this in Yamahas 2024 financial report and I had to chuckle, they actually drew an arrow to the moon.Screenshot 20241217 081802 Drive

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Snapper
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12/17/2024 5:22am
early wrote:
Saw this in Yamahas 2024 financial report and I had to chuckle, they actually drew an arrow to the moon.

Saw this in Yamahas 2024 financial report and I had to chuckle, they actually drew an arrow to the moon.Screenshot 20241217 081802 Drive

I'm curious to see the 2024 figure.

NicNak
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12/17/2024 9:23am
early wrote:
Saw this in Yamahas 2024 financial report and I had to chuckle, they actually drew an arrow to the moon.

Saw this in Yamahas 2024 financial report and I had to chuckle, they actually drew an arrow to the moon.Screenshot 20241217 081802 Drive

Snapper wrote:

I'm curious to see the 2024 figure.

I'd be curious to see it broken down into 250 verse 450s.

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msp332
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12/17/2024 2:19pm

Update from the Pierer Mobility AG website today, 17 December 2024:

PIERER Mobility AG appoints Citigroup Global Markets Europe AG to reorganize its ownership structure

PIERER Mobility AG is currently in talks with potential strategic and financial investors. These include both existing partners as well as new strategic and financial investors.

Citigroup Global Markets Europe AG was appointed today to support this process in a structured, transparent and efficient manner in the interest of all stakeholders.

The objective of the investment process is to have investors subscribe to a necessary cash capital increase or financial instruments of PIERER Mobility AG. These funds will be used to strengthen the PIERER Mobility Group, in particular KTM AG.

In order to finalize the structured investor process, it will be necessary to convene a shareholders' meeting in due course to pass the relevant resolutions.

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Beagle
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12/17/2024 2:47pm
msp332 wrote:
Update from the Pierer Mobility AG website today, 17 December 2024:PIERER Mobility AG appoints Citigroup Global Markets Europe AG to reorganize its ownership structurePIERER...

Update from the Pierer Mobility AG website today, 17 December 2024:

PIERER Mobility AG appoints Citigroup Global Markets Europe AG to reorganize its ownership structure

PIERER Mobility AG is currently in talks with potential strategic and financial investors. These include both existing partners as well as new strategic and financial investors.

Citigroup Global Markets Europe AG was appointed today to support this process in a structured, transparent and efficient manner in the interest of all stakeholders.

The objective of the investment process is to have investors subscribe to a necessary cash capital increase or financial instruments of PIERER Mobility AG. These funds will be used to strengthen the PIERER Mobility Group, in particular KTM AG.

In order to finalize the structured investor process, it will be necessary to convene a shareholders' meeting in due course to pass the relevant resolutions.

Wait what? It's impossible, how could they find investors when our resident finance expert said they couldn't sell shares?

Oh, well, maybe that's what restructuring means after all 😆

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JazzyJJ
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12/17/2024 3:22pm

GT bikes is getting shut down, and will sell through the remaining inventory. Team riders just found out today. Another bad sign

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MxAddic
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12/17/2024 3:27pm Edited Date/Time 12/17/2024 3:50pm
msp332 wrote:
Update from the Pierer Mobility AG website today, 17 December 2024:PIERER Mobility AG appoints Citigroup Global Markets Europe AG to reorganize its ownership structurePIERER...

Update from the Pierer Mobility AG website today, 17 December 2024:

PIERER Mobility AG appoints Citigroup Global Markets Europe AG to reorganize its ownership structure

PIERER Mobility AG is currently in talks with potential strategic and financial investors. These include both existing partners as well as new strategic and financial investors.

Citigroup Global Markets Europe AG was appointed today to support this process in a structured, transparent and efficient manner in the interest of all stakeholders.

The objective of the investment process is to have investors subscribe to a necessary cash capital increase or financial instruments of PIERER Mobility AG. These funds will be used to strengthen the PIERER Mobility Group, in particular KTM AG.

In order to finalize the structured investor process, it will be necessary to convene a shareholders' meeting in due course to pass the relevant resolutions.

Beagle wrote:
Wait what? It's impossible, how could they find investors when our resident finance expert said they couldn't sell shares?Oh, well, maybe that's what restructuring means after...

Wait what? It's impossible, how could they find investors when our resident finance expert said they couldn't sell shares?

Oh, well, maybe that's what restructuring means after all 😆

CGME is their market maker and I suspect can no longer continue to support a stock price above $10. This is a fire drill. Maybe wait until somebody cuts them a check instead of another propaganda release to start gloating.

Once again your ignorance is mind numbing. The plan was to restructure debt, not the ownership. Evidently they have little faith in that process and are now looking for ways to restructure the ownership.

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gerg
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12/17/2024 3:31pm
Spurdo wrote:

The thing that surprised me the most here - I blocked "MXAddic"s spam replies from my feed, and this thread got 9 pages shorter!

OMG you can block on this web site?

Please please enlighten me how !!!!

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Beagle
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12/17/2024 4:02pm Edited Date/Time 12/17/2024 4:07pm
msp332 wrote:
Update from the Pierer Mobility AG website today, 17 December 2024:PIERER Mobility AG appoints Citigroup Global Markets Europe AG to reorganize its ownership structurePIERER...

Update from the Pierer Mobility AG website today, 17 December 2024:

PIERER Mobility AG appoints Citigroup Global Markets Europe AG to reorganize its ownership structure

PIERER Mobility AG is currently in talks with potential strategic and financial investors. These include both existing partners as well as new strategic and financial investors.

Citigroup Global Markets Europe AG was appointed today to support this process in a structured, transparent and efficient manner in the interest of all stakeholders.

The objective of the investment process is to have investors subscribe to a necessary cash capital increase or financial instruments of PIERER Mobility AG. These funds will be used to strengthen the PIERER Mobility Group, in particular KTM AG.

In order to finalize the structured investor process, it will be necessary to convene a shareholders' meeting in due course to pass the relevant resolutions.

Beagle wrote:
Wait what? It's impossible, how could they find investors when our resident finance expert said they couldn't sell shares?Oh, well, maybe that's what restructuring means after...

Wait what? It's impossible, how could they find investors when our resident finance expert said they couldn't sell shares?

Oh, well, maybe that's what restructuring means after all 😆

MxAddic wrote:
CGME is their market maker and I suspect can no longer continue to support a stock price above $10. This is a fire drill. Maybe wait...

CGME is their market maker and I suspect can no longer continue to support a stock price above $10. This is a fire drill. Maybe wait until somebody cuts them a check instead of another propaganda release to start gloating.

Once again your ignorance is mind numbing. The plan was to restructure debt, not the ownership. Evidently they have little faith in that process and are now looking for ways to restructure the ownership.

Honestly it's fascinating how quickly you can elaborate to not let reality take any hold of you. 

Unimaginative folks like myself might read this and just think that restructuring during a restructuring process makes sense but here you are, shining some light towards us.

I mean, once you had understood the difference between restructuring and bankruptcy of course.

So your latest is, this announcement is just another smoke screen because... the shares are too high? 

17344800886628194180282907723116
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MxAddic
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12/17/2024 4:10pm
Beagle wrote:
Honestly it's fascinating how quickly you can elaborate to not let reality take any hold of you. Unimaginative folks like myself might read this and just think...

Honestly it's fascinating how quickly you can elaborate to not let reality take any hold of you. 

Unimaginative folks like myself might read this and just think that restructuring during a restructuring process makes sense but here you are, shining some light towards us.

I mean, once you had understood the difference between restructuring and bankruptcy of course.

So your latest is, this announcement is just another smoke screen because... the shares are too high? 

17344800886628194180282907723116

If you insist...

you-can-put-lipstick-on-a-pig-pout

 

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Tim507
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12/17/2024 4:37pm

At this level of dysfunction, PM AG is cavorting with those who make and change the rules. Behind closed doors, anything goes when you're in bed with representatives of the Elohim/Archons. Definitions of BK or Re-Struct...can and will vary. None of this is about what is correct and or moral. It is all about power and control.

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