KTM to file for Bankruptcy/ Self Restructuring on Friday

PRM31
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12/13/2024 9:57am

Focusing on service as a money maker is a German/Austrian thing. Try owning a BMW vehicle! 

I have an Owners Manual for my ‘24 350 SXF. That should come with every bike. I bought used so don’t know if it was provided. I did just order a printed repair manual. I like real paper when working on things. 

 

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MxAddic
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12/13/2024 10:46am
Not permanent, but my dealer just sent me an email with a bunch of KTM/Husky/GG bikes about $3k discounted from msrp thru EOY, so clearly they...

Not permanent, but my dealer just sent me an email with a bunch of KTM/Husky/GG bikes about $3k discounted from msrp thru EOY, so clearly they are doing something to sell inventory and free up the related cash.

I would seem sales are facing a double whammy. An industry slowdown as well as a stigma associated with the bankruptcy.

1
MPJC
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12/13/2024 10:47am

My TM didn't come with an owner's manual, and having to look it up on my phone when I want to know some simple bit of information such as how much to tighten a bolt makes me lose my mind. I have to first of all try to clean any oil or grease off my fingers since I wouldn't care so much about fingerprints on a book but I do care about getting oil or grease on an Iphone that costs over $1K. I have to see what page it's on, scroll to that page, which always seems much more difficult than it should be. With an owner's manual, once I'm familiar with it finding stuff gets pretty quick and easy. Once I find it, then I need to zoom in because, of course, I'm old and need reading glasses, which are never in the garage with me. Just give me a nice, sensibly arranged, easily readable book please! I know, I could print it  - at work because I never keep a functioning printer at home. But then I have loose fucking pages. I can feel my blood pressure rising just thinking about it. I'm starting to feel a bit like this guy!falling down

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MN_MX595
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12/13/2024 11:37am

I tend to agree with the digital manual thing - I ended up sending the downloaded file to OfficeMax to get it printed and bound, was about $35. Grand scheme of things not a big deal I guess, but certainly annoying. I didn't get a service manual with my MC450F but the owner's manual covers a decent amount of topics besides the heavy lifting stuff like internal engine work. 

The digital copy has been nice in a pinch when I couldn't figure out where the hell I left my manual to find torque specs, etc. Some give and take I guess. 

I'm very curious to see if the 2025 models get some markdowns come January/Feb timeframe. I wasn't necessarily in the market for a new KTM, but I could be swayed by a nice rebate.

The Shop

3strokemx
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12/13/2024 11:42am
MPJC wrote:
My TM didn't come with an owner's manual, and having to look it up on my phone when I want to know some simple bit of...

My TM didn't come with an owner's manual, and having to look it up on my phone when I want to know some simple bit of information such as how much to tighten a bolt makes me lose my mind. I have to first of all try to clean any oil or grease off my fingers since I wouldn't care so much about fingerprints on a book but I do care about getting oil or grease on an Iphone that costs over $1K. I have to see what page it's on, scroll to that page, which always seems much more difficult than it should be. With an owner's manual, once I'm familiar with it finding stuff gets pretty quick and easy. Once I find it, then I need to zoom in because, of course, I'm old and need reading glasses, which are never in the garage with me. Just give me a nice, sensibly arranged, easily readable book please! I know, I could print it  - at work because I never keep a functioning printer at home. But then I have loose fucking pages. I can feel my blood pressure rising just thinking about it. I'm starting to feel a bit like this guy!falling down

Couldn't you print a copy?

MPJC
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12/13/2024 11:45am
MPJC wrote:
My TM didn't come with an owner's manual, and having to look it up on my phone when I want to know some simple bit of...

My TM didn't come with an owner's manual, and having to look it up on my phone when I want to know some simple bit of information such as how much to tighten a bolt makes me lose my mind. I have to first of all try to clean any oil or grease off my fingers since I wouldn't care so much about fingerprints on a book but I do care about getting oil or grease on an Iphone that costs over $1K. I have to see what page it's on, scroll to that page, which always seems much more difficult than it should be. With an owner's manual, once I'm familiar with it finding stuff gets pretty quick and easy. Once I find it, then I need to zoom in because, of course, I'm old and need reading glasses, which are never in the garage with me. Just give me a nice, sensibly arranged, easily readable book please! I know, I could print it  - at work because I never keep a functioning printer at home. But then I have loose fucking pages. I can feel my blood pressure rising just thinking about it. I'm starting to feel a bit like this guy!falling down

3strokemx wrote:

Couldn't you print a copy?

Then I have loose pages. I guess I could find a 3 hole punch and put them in a binder. But I don't want solutions. I want to complain and be angry. No time for this. I've got some clouds to yell at. 

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3strokemx
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12/13/2024 11:50am Edited Date/Time 12/13/2024 11:51am

The bankruptcy opens an opportunity for the Japanese manufacturers to lower their msrp's, lose a little for the year, then resume dominance of the segment after KTM goes out of business.  This is reminiscent of the tactics reported in Jeffrey Alexander's book Japan's Motorcycle Wars: An Industry History.

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GrapeApe
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12/13/2024 11:54am
MPJC wrote:
My TM didn't come with an owner's manual, and having to look it up on my phone when I want to know some simple bit of...

My TM didn't come with an owner's manual, and having to look it up on my phone when I want to know some simple bit of information such as how much to tighten a bolt makes me lose my mind. I have to first of all try to clean any oil or grease off my fingers since I wouldn't care so much about fingerprints on a book but I do care about getting oil or grease on an Iphone that costs over $1K. I have to see what page it's on, scroll to that page, which always seems much more difficult than it should be. With an owner's manual, once I'm familiar with it finding stuff gets pretty quick and easy. Once I find it, then I need to zoom in because, of course, I'm old and need reading glasses, which are never in the garage with me. Just give me a nice, sensibly arranged, easily readable book please! I know, I could print it  - at work because I never keep a functioning printer at home. But then I have loose fucking pages. I can feel my blood pressure rising just thinking about it. I'm starting to feel a bit like this guy!falling down

I can't stand "working" on my phone. My old laptops get retired to the garage where they live out the rest of their days covered in dirt and grease. Youtube DIY videos are played on a cheap 40" smart TV. Still not as good as a bound manual though.

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MPJC
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12/13/2024 12:09pm Edited Date/Time 12/13/2024 12:09pm
MPJC wrote:
My TM didn't come with an owner's manual, and having to look it up on my phone when I want to know some simple bit of...

My TM didn't come with an owner's manual, and having to look it up on my phone when I want to know some simple bit of information such as how much to tighten a bolt makes me lose my mind. I have to first of all try to clean any oil or grease off my fingers since I wouldn't care so much about fingerprints on a book but I do care about getting oil or grease on an Iphone that costs over $1K. I have to see what page it's on, scroll to that page, which always seems much more difficult than it should be. With an owner's manual, once I'm familiar with it finding stuff gets pretty quick and easy. Once I find it, then I need to zoom in because, of course, I'm old and need reading glasses, which are never in the garage with me. Just give me a nice, sensibly arranged, easily readable book please! I know, I could print it  - at work because I never keep a functioning printer at home. But then I have loose fucking pages. I can feel my blood pressure rising just thinking about it. I'm starting to feel a bit like this guy!falling down

GrapeApe wrote:
I can't stand "working" on my phone. My old laptops get retired to the garage where they live out the rest of their days covered in...

I can't stand "working" on my phone. My old laptops get retired to the garage where they live out the rest of their days covered in dirt and grease. Youtube DIY videos are played on a cheap 40" smart TV. Still not as good as a bound manual though.

Not just the manual. I remember getting a nice, handsome little folder with a new KTM (I guess the last time I bought a new one was 2017) that also had a neat orange toolkit with an impressive assortment of tools, as well as throttle cams. Probably more goodies that I'm forgetting. Gave me a warm fuzzy feeling. 

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MPJC
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12/13/2024 12:17pm Edited Date/Time 12/13/2024 12:19pm
MPJC wrote:
My TM didn't come with an owner's manual, and having to look it up on my phone when I want to know some simple bit of...

My TM didn't come with an owner's manual, and having to look it up on my phone when I want to know some simple bit of information such as how much to tighten a bolt makes me lose my mind. I have to first of all try to clean any oil or grease off my fingers since I wouldn't care so much about fingerprints on a book but I do care about getting oil or grease on an Iphone that costs over $1K. I have to see what page it's on, scroll to that page, which always seems much more difficult than it should be. With an owner's manual, once I'm familiar with it finding stuff gets pretty quick and easy. Once I find it, then I need to zoom in because, of course, I'm old and need reading glasses, which are never in the garage with me. Just give me a nice, sensibly arranged, easily readable book please! I know, I could print it  - at work because I never keep a functioning printer at home. But then I have loose fucking pages. I can feel my blood pressure rising just thinking about it. I'm starting to feel a bit like this guy!falling down

GrapeApe wrote:
I can't stand "working" on my phone. My old laptops get retired to the garage where they live out the rest of their days covered in...

I can't stand "working" on my phone. My old laptops get retired to the garage where they live out the rest of their days covered in dirt and grease. Youtube DIY videos are played on a cheap 40" smart TV. Still not as good as a bound manual though.

MPJC wrote:
Not just the manual. I remember getting a nice, handsome little folder with a new KTM (I guess the last time I bought a new one...

Not just the manual. I remember getting a nice, handsome little folder with a new KTM (I guess the last time I bought a new one was 2017) that also had a neat orange toolkit with an impressive assortment of tools, as well as throttle cams. Probably more goodies that I'm forgetting. Gave me a warm fuzzy feeling. 

I should add, if I'm looking to buy a used KTM (or any other bike that came with goodies) and the owner doesn't have the goodies that came with the bike to pass on to me, I'm not buying the bike. Especially if they don't know where the owner's manual is. Who knows how the thing has been maintained if they don't keep the manual to consult as needed when doing maintenance. 

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Beagle
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12/13/2024 12:39pm

No salaries for November and December, another division included in the procedure (but what's another $3 million debt at this point?).

Production stopped today, a bit earlier than was programed, it's supposed to restart in March if everything goes to plan.

First meeting with creditors next week, December 20th, another important meeting on January 24th then final meeting with creditors voting on the restructuration plan on February 25th.

https://es.motorsport.com/motogp/news/crisis-ktm-pago-sueldos-filial-qu…

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Spoonguy
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12/13/2024 12:45pm

Today it kind of dawned on me how sudden this all happened (or was revealed) to KTM when reading MOTOGP news. Not that long ago KTM was begging the promoters to race a third MOTOGP team, they reveal a multi million dollar headquarters in SoCal, and buy MV Augusta, all like within the last 12-18 months. Unreal, hard to think that there wasn't something fishy going on, or at least careless.

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Spooner
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12/13/2024 2:07pm

If they can’t even pay their employees how in the world can they justify racing in 2025?

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MxAddic
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12/13/2024 2:11pm
Spoonguy wrote:
Today it kind of dawned on me how sudden this all happened (or was revealed) to KTM when reading MOTOGP news. Not that long ago KTM...

Today it kind of dawned on me how sudden this all happened (or was revealed) to KTM when reading MOTOGP news. Not that long ago KTM was begging the promoters to race a third MOTOGP team, they reveal a multi million dollar headquarters in SoCal, and buy MV Augusta, all like within the last 12-18 months. Unreal, hard to think that there wasn't something fishy going on, or at least careless.

You don't have to see a dead fish to know it's there Spoonman.

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Tim507
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12/13/2024 2:20pm

Does PM underwrite the dealer flooring loans or part of them via another company not yet disclosed?

Hammer 663s
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12/13/2024 5:24pm
Tim507 wrote:

Does PM underwrite the dealer flooring loans or part of them via another company not yet disclosed?

I’d bet so since I was told their flooring costs are 4x other mags. And this was by someone that would truly know. 

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1911
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12/13/2024 5:25pm
MPJC wrote:
My TM didn't come with an owner's manual, and having to look it up on my phone when I want to know some simple bit of...

My TM didn't come with an owner's manual, and having to look it up on my phone when I want to know some simple bit of information such as how much to tighten a bolt makes me lose my mind. I have to first of all try to clean any oil or grease off my fingers since I wouldn't care so much about fingerprints on a book but I do care about getting oil or grease on an Iphone that costs over $1K. I have to see what page it's on, scroll to that page, which always seems much more difficult than it should be. With an owner's manual, once I'm familiar with it finding stuff gets pretty quick and easy. Once I find it, then I need to zoom in because, of course, I'm old and need reading glasses, which are never in the garage with me. Just give me a nice, sensibly arranged, easily readable book please! I know, I could print it  - at work because I never keep a functioning printer at home. But then I have loose fucking pages. I can feel my blood pressure rising just thinking about it. I'm starting to feel a bit like this guy!falling down

The older I get, the better that movie gets, 

1
12/13/2024 6:16pm
Spooner wrote:

If they can’t even pay their employees how in the world can they justify racing in 2025?

I agree, Can the race team funds be frozen,or clawed back? Do the checks from Corp. start bouncing? Does the race team get sent home as well? Do the Dungey brothers get paid? How do they sell 130K motorcycles in this market? WTF!??  I can't keep up!

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Broseph
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12/13/2024 6:34pm

KTM provide owner manuals, but unlike other manufacturers don't provide workshop manuals, encouraging customers to use their dealers for major repairs.

MxAddic wrote:

I have been buying new Kawasaki's since 1984 and none of them ever came with a service manual.

Workshop manuals are available through your local dealer or online from the manufacturer, unless it's a KTM, only owners manuals are available to customers.

You can get genuine printed KTM service manuals here: 

print.ktm.com

They ship straight from Austria.

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gscx
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12/13/2024 8:13pm

When a company cannot make payroll they are finished.

No one is going to stay and work for free. Even if they get some type of bailout who is going to go work for a company that didn't pay it's employees, especially so publicly 

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12/13/2024 8:33pm
MxAddic wrote:

I have been buying new Kawasaki's since 1984 and none of them ever came with a service manual.

Workshop manuals are available through your local dealer or online from the manufacturer, unless it's a KTM, only owners manuals are available to customers.

Broseph wrote:

You can get genuine printed KTM service manuals here: 

print.ktm.com

They ship straight from Austria.

But when you ask a KTM dealer, they say owner manuals are available but not service/workshop manuals!

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LungButter
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12/13/2024 11:58pm
indy rider wrote:

I haven't bought one since 2018, but all of my new Yamahas have come with a service manual.

Yep. For at least the last 25 years. 

 

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tek14
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12/14/2024 1:05am
Spooner wrote:

If they can’t even pay their employees how in the world can they justify racing in 2025?

Somewhere was said MotoGP is under different company and have fundings and plans locked in for 2025. Even so their current riders are talking to other teams so they could jump ship quick. Dont know if MotoGP team could end up to Redbull racing and KTM will supply their bikes if they are still in business. 

Beagle
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12/14/2024 1:33am Edited Date/Time 12/14/2024 1:34am
Spooner wrote:

If they can’t even pay their employees how in the world can they justify racing in 2025?

tek14 wrote:
Somewhere was said MotoGP is under different company and have fundings and plans locked in for 2025. Even so their current riders are talking to other...

Somewhere was said MotoGP is under different company and have fundings and plans locked in for 2025. Even so their current riders are talking to other teams so they could jump ship quick. Dont know if MotoGP team could end up to Redbull racing and KTM will supply their bikes if they are still in business. 

Curious about the idea that has been floating around that it could be somehow better if KTM stopped racing.

What would be positive in KTM laying off hundreds more workers, what difference does it make if they belong to the racing division? I'm not worried about Pedro Acosta or Chase Sexton, they'll manage, but there are so many more people working in there.

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ML512
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12/14/2024 3:48am
Tim507 wrote:

Does PM underwrite the dealer flooring loans or part of them via another company not yet disclosed?

My understanding is that Wells Fargo is the flooring financing partner on the US side of things.

PM takes care of a set amount of time for flooring on each model and after this set amount of time expires, it transfer over to the dealer’s flooring plan.

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MxAddic
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12/14/2024 4:22am
Spooner wrote:

If they can’t even pay their employees how in the world can they justify racing in 2025?

tek14 wrote:
Somewhere was said MotoGP is under different company and have fundings and plans locked in for 2025. Even so their current riders are talking to other...

Somewhere was said MotoGP is under different company and have fundings and plans locked in for 2025. Even so their current riders are talking to other teams so they could jump ship quick. Dont know if MotoGP team could end up to Redbull racing and KTM will supply their bikes if they are still in business. 

Beagle wrote:
Curious about the idea that has been floating around that it could be somehow better if KTM stopped racing.What would be positive in KTM laying off...

Curious about the idea that has been floating around that it could be somehow better if KTM stopped racing.

What would be positive in KTM laying off hundreds more workers, what difference does it make if they belong to the racing division? I'm not worried about Pedro Acosta or Chase Sexton, they'll manage, but there are so many more people working in there.

It makes zero sense from a business perspective to keep employees not making a profit instead of ones the do. Is just another bold move in a series from this guy that proves he has no clue what he is doing or has questionable motives.

Pierer is not making the right moves to save the company and a blind man could see it.

1
12/14/2024 4:44am
Not permanent, but my dealer just sent me an email with a bunch of KTM/Husky/GG bikes about $3k discounted from msrp thru EOY, so clearly they...

Not permanent, but my dealer just sent me an email with a bunch of KTM/Husky/GG bikes about $3k discounted from msrp thru EOY, so clearly they are doing something to sell inventory and free up the related cash.

MxAddic wrote:

I would seem sales are facing a double whammy. An industry slowdown as well as a stigma associated with the bankruptcy.

I spoke with my local dealer about this the other day.  He said everyone coming in to look at a new KTM is looking for the “going out of business sale”.  He shoots them a very competitive price, and they come back with, “I’ll just wait until things get really bad and you’re just giving them away.”  I gotta be honest, if I was in the market for a new KTM, this would be my strategy.  
If they can’t come up with the money to pay their employees, it might be very difficult for them to come up with the promotional budget to rebate their bikes even further.  Keep in mind that they have already been paid by the dealers (through Wells Fargo) for all the bikes already on showroom floors.  The money an OEM receives comes when the bike is invoiced to the dealer and has already been collected.  Any incentives offered (plus the holdback paid to the dealer when one is retailed) will amount to more money out of PM’s wallet.  
I’m sure they have some money budgeted for this, but taking their current financial situation into consideration, it will be very difficult to increase this budget.

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Spoonguy
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12/14/2024 4:53am

So, what a lot of this translates to is that the employees, creditors, and dealers are fucked? Race teams are OK for now, the rich executives will still be rich, but they don't need people to build bikes when nobody is buying, dealers can't sell bikes from a company in receivership, and the creditors can't get blood from a turnip......I still contend that 1190 Adventurer was the worst piece of shit I have ever owned in 59 years on this planet and the national service exec I talked to was an arrogant asshole. Shame about the dirt bikes though.

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Beagle
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12/14/2024 6:18am Edited Date/Time 12/14/2024 6:21am
Spoonguy wrote:
So, what a lot of this translates to is that the employees, creditors, and dealers are fucked? Race teams are OK for now, the rich executives...

So, what a lot of this translates to is that the employees, creditors, and dealers are fucked? Race teams are OK for now, the rich executives will still be rich, but they don't need people to build bikes when nobody is buying, dealers can't sell bikes from a company in receivership, and the creditors can't get blood from a turnip......I still contend that 1190 Adventurer was the worst piece of shit I have ever owned in 59 years on this planet and the national service exec I talked to was an arrogant asshole. Shame about the dirt bikes though.

My understanding, admittedly limited, is that if they go bankrupt everyone is fucked.

On the other hand, if the restructuring of debt is accepted that means that some creditors (the big ones, like the banks) agreed to forfeit 70% of what is due to them in exchange of getting 30% in 2 years, the other creditors (suppliers, employees...) that don't agree are still owed their part of debt in full, production resumes in March with lower output and smaller workforce.

It all comes down to wether the banks believe they can get more money back after restructuring the debt or if they believe they'd get more than 30% of their due with PMG going bankrupt.

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Flatliner
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12/14/2024 6:18am

Does this mean race team employees not being paid?

 

For what its worth, north of the border new ktm-husky prices haven't moved an inch.

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