KTM to file for Bankruptcy/ Self Restructuring on Friday

Flatliner
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12/10/2024 5:48pm

It's going to be domino after domino.

 

MV can recover if they're ok with being the exotic brand they already are.  I rode the triple sportbike they had.... howled like a banshee.  

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MONEY.
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12/10/2024 7:50pm
500 Mike wrote:
Flatliner wrote:
It's going to be domino after domino. MV can recover if they're ok with being the exotic brand they already are.  I rode the triple sportbike they...

It's going to be domino after domino.

 

MV can recover if they're ok with being the exotic brand they already are.  I rode the triple sportbike they had.... howled like a banshee.  

I heard through my local dealer MV barely sold 400 motorcycle in the states last year...

12/10/2024 8:02pm
500 Mike wrote:
Flatliner wrote:
It's going to be domino after domino. MV can recover if they're ok with being the exotic brand they already are.  I rode the triple sportbike they...

It's going to be domino after domino.

 

MV can recover if they're ok with being the exotic brand they already are.  I rode the triple sportbike they had.... howled like a banshee.  

MONEY. wrote:

I heard through my local dealer MV barely sold 400 motorcycle in the states last year...

1,823 global sales in 2023.

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Team403
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12/10/2024 8:30pm

So if a Chinese buyer steps in  - is it possible for the premium brand connotation to survive?  I have a hard time envisioning this🤔

The Shop

Motofinne
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12/10/2024 10:53pm

Funny, i think MV Agusta was actually a good fit for PMG. Low volume exotic bikes with big margins. Buying MV made way more sense from a portfolio management point of view than buying GasGas.

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MxAddic
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12/11/2024 3:48am
500 Mike wrote:
Motofinne wrote:
Funny, i think MV Agusta was actually a good fit for PMG. Low volume exotic bikes with big margins. Buying MV made way more sense from...

Funny, i think MV Agusta was actually a good fit for PMG. Low volume exotic bikes with big margins. Buying MV made way more sense from a portfolio management point of view than buying GasGas.

They have such a nice way of saying KTM is broke and going out of business. If only I could be so cordial.

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Snapper
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12/11/2024 4:05am
500 Mike wrote:
Motofinne wrote:
Funny, i think MV Agusta was actually a good fit for PMG. Low volume exotic bikes with big margins. Buying MV made way more sense from...

Funny, i think MV Agusta was actually a good fit for PMG. Low volume exotic bikes with big margins. Buying MV made way more sense from a portfolio management point of view than buying GasGas.

MxAddic wrote:

They have such a nice way of saying KTM is broke and going out of business. If only I could be so cordial.

It seems like you have a bit of an obsession with this whole KTM situation. Has something happened in the past?

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MxAddic
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12/11/2024 4:42am Edited Date/Time 12/11/2024 5:01am
Snapper wrote:

It seems like you have a bit of an obsession with this whole KTM situation. Has something happened in the past?

Nah, just enjoy pointing out all the fuckery going on.

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Snapper
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12/11/2024 6:07am
Snapper wrote:

It seems like you have a bit of an obsession with this whole KTM situation. Has something happened in the past?

MxAddic wrote:

Nah, just enjoy pointing out all the fuckery going on.

Well, that's kinda sad.

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MxAddic
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12/11/2024 6:49am Edited Date/Time 12/11/2024 7:31am
Snapper wrote:

Well, that's kinda sad.

Not half as sad as making baseless personal attacks against a stranger on the internet.

Trust me. I take no pleasure in the failures that are happening. It truly disgusts me.

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Marty1028
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12/11/2024 7:21am
Team403 wrote:

So if a Chinese buyer steps in  - is it possible for the premium brand connotation to survive?  I have a hard time envisioning this🤔

IMO, no because the average consumer in our sport HATES china, even though they buy shit every day from there and that they are morons. When PMG moved single cylinder low displacement street bikes to china and indian production facilities, all i heard at local tracks were how KTM/GG/Huskys were all now “piles of chinese shit” and that they wouldn’t buy one. No one would read that the bikes were still made in austria….

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soggy
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12/11/2024 8:24am
Snapper wrote:

Well, that's kinda sad.

MxAddic wrote:
Not half as sad as making baseless personal attacks against a stranger on the internet.Trust me. I take no pleasure in the failures that are happening...

Not half as sad as making baseless personal attacks against a stranger on the internet.

Trust me. I take no pleasure in the failures that are happening. It truly disgusts me.

Bullshit you would love for them to go under so you could go around goading ‘I told you so’. I’ve never seen someone so obsessed with being ‘right’. 

pathetic. 

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ktmracer726
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12/11/2024 8:33am Edited Date/Time 12/11/2024 8:34am
Team403 wrote:

So if a Chinese buyer steps in  - is it possible for the premium brand connotation to survive?  I have a hard time envisioning this🤔

Marty1028 wrote:
IMO, no because the average consumer in our sport HATES china, even though they buy shit every day from there and that they are morons. When...

IMO, no because the average consumer in our sport HATES china, even though they buy shit every day from there and that they are morons. When PMG moved single cylinder low displacement street bikes to china and indian production facilities, all i heard at local tracks were how KTM/GG/Huskys were all now “piles of chinese shit” and that they wouldn’t buy one. No one would read that the bikes were still made in austria….

I heard that numerous times as well. Bad info spread all over the place. I'm sure they source parts from China and India but the offroad bikes are still assembled in Austria. 

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MxAddic
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12/11/2024 8:37am
soggy wrote:
Bullshit you would love for them to go under so you could go around goading ‘I told you so’. I’ve never seen someone so obsessed with...

Bullshit you would love for them to go under so you could go around goading ‘I told you so’. I’ve never seen someone so obsessed with being ‘right’. 

pathetic. 

Actually you have it backwards. You are hoping they don't so you can tell me how wrong I was like you always try and do unsuccessfully.

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MPJC
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12/11/2024 8:43am
soggy wrote:
Bullshit you would love for them to go under so you could go around goading ‘I told you so’. I’ve never seen someone so obsessed with...

Bullshit you would love for them to go under so you could go around goading ‘I told you so’. I’ve never seen someone so obsessed with being ‘right’. 

pathetic. 

MxAddic wrote:

Actually you have it backwards. You are hoping they don't so you can tell me how wrong I was like you always try and do unsuccessfully.

grumpy-old-men

I always think of these two guys when I see these exchanges between you two, 

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MxAddic
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12/11/2024 8:57am
MPJC wrote:
I always think of these two guys when I see these exchanges between you two, 
grumpy-old-men

I always think of these two guys when I see these exchanges between you two, 

The difference is if I am wrong and PMG survives I am good with that. If I am right his ass is going to be frosted big time evidently.

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soggy
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12/11/2024 8:58am
soggy wrote:
Bullshit you would love for them to go under so you could go around goading ‘I told you so’. I’ve never seen someone so obsessed with...

Bullshit you would love for them to go under so you could go around goading ‘I told you so’. I’ve never seen someone so obsessed with being ‘right’. 

pathetic. 

MxAddic wrote:

Actually you have it backwards. You are hoping they don't so you can tell me how wrong I was like you always try and do unsuccessfully.

So if they do go under you won’t take a victory lap?


If they don’t will you admit you were wrong or will you just move the goal posts?


It feels like when inevitably KTM has to move on from Stefan you will claim that as the brand dying, or when then get outside investment to save them. Your fragile little ego can’t handle the embarrassment of being wrong. 

soggy
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12/11/2024 9:00am
MPJC wrote:
I always think of these two guys when I see these exchanges between you two, 
grumpy-old-men

I always think of these two guys when I see these exchanges between you two, 

😂😂 Never seen it but I assume this is from grumpy old men? Not fair I’m not even 40. 

GrapeApe
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12/11/2024 9:02am

When all is said and done you will both be able to claim you were right and the other was wrong. KTM has already failed, but it will emerge in some form or fashion so technically it will survive.

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MPJC
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12/11/2024 9:06am
MPJC wrote:
I always think of these two guys when I see these exchanges between you two, 
grumpy-old-men

I always think of these two guys when I see these exchanges between you two, 

soggy wrote:

😂😂 Never seen it but I assume this is from grumpy old men? Not fair I’m not even 40. 

Indeed it is. 🤣🤣

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soggy
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12/11/2024 9:11am
GrapeApe wrote:
When all is said and done you will both be able to claim you were right and the other was wrong. KTM has already failed, but...

When all is said and done you will both be able to claim you were right and the other was wrong. KTM has already failed, but it will emerge in some form or fashion so technically it will survive.

I think they will survive but I’m not claiming one way or the other. 1 because we don’t have all the info and two i know what I don’t know. 

If they fail I’ll be bummed as an enthusiast of the sport. If they stick around I’ll be happy cause it’s good for the sport, won’t do anything for me personally (other then owning a ktm and helping resale value). 

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MxAddic
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12/11/2024 9:15am Edited Date/Time 12/11/2024 9:18am
soggy wrote:
So if they do go under you won’t take a victory lap?If they don’t will you admit you were wrong or will you just move the...

So if they do go under you won’t take a victory lap?


If they don’t will you admit you were wrong or will you just move the goal posts?


It feels like when inevitably KTM has to move on from Stefan you will claim that as the brand dying, or when then get outside investment to save them. Your fragile little ego can’t handle the embarrassment of being wrong. 

Why would I do that. Nobody has challenged me on the issue. There is no victory in them going under.

I certainly will admit that I was wrong just as you did. By the same token I expect not to be told I was wrong after it happens instead of before.

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MxAddic
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12/11/2024 9:21am Edited Date/Time 12/11/2024 9:35am
GrapeApe wrote:
When all is said and done you will both be able to claim you were right and the other was wrong. KTM has already failed, but...

When all is said and done you will both be able to claim you were right and the other was wrong. KTM has already failed, but it will emerge in some form or fashion so technically it will survive.

Just to be clear You will not find I have ever claimed the brand will not survive.

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JJ376
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12/11/2024 9:25am
Team403 wrote:

So if a Chinese buyer steps in  - is it possible for the premium brand connotation to survive?  I have a hard time envisioning this🤔

Marty1028 wrote:
IMO, no because the average consumer in our sport HATES china, even though they buy shit every day from there and that they are morons. When...

IMO, no because the average consumer in our sport HATES china, even though they buy shit every day from there and that they are morons. When PMG moved single cylinder low displacement street bikes to china and indian production facilities, all i heard at local tracks were how KTM/GG/Huskys were all now “piles of chinese shit” and that they wouldn’t buy one. No one would read that the bikes were still made in austria….

...the same people who bellow " 'Merica" as loudly as possible, while still doing their shopping at Wal-Mart. 

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LungButter
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12/11/2024 9:29am
Spoonguy wrote:
Sorry pal, didn't mean to be a dick. Which my reply was. Just a sensitive subject to me, I and my wife wasted a lot of...

Sorry pal, didn't mean to be a dick. Which my reply was. Just a sensitive subject to me, I and my wife wasted a lot of time trying expand and promote my state's dirt bike trail systems to no avail. Again, my apologies.

All good brother!

Keep fighting the good fight!

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Magoofan
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12/11/2024 9:44am
Snapper wrote:

It seems like you have a bit of an obsession with this whole KTM situation. Has something happened in the past?

MxAddic wrote:

Nah, just enjoy pointing out all the fuckery going on.

Excellent 80's flashback....

I sure miss the 80's MTV days.

 

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Magoofan
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12/11/2024 9:47am Edited Date/Time 12/11/2024 9:48am
JJ376 wrote:

...the same people who bellow " 'Merica" as loudly as possible, while still doing their shopping at Wal-Mart. 

 

Where are you shopping for products that aren't made overseas?

What are you posting from?

 

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12/11/2024 9:55am Edited Date/Time 12/11/2024 9:59am
Team403 wrote:

So if a Chinese buyer steps in  - is it possible for the premium brand connotation to survive?  I have a hard time envisioning this🤔

Marty1028 wrote:
IMO, no because the average consumer in our sport HATES china, even though they buy shit every day from there and that they are morons. When...

IMO, no because the average consumer in our sport HATES china, even though they buy shit every day from there and that they are morons. When PMG moved single cylinder low displacement street bikes to china and indian production facilities, all i heard at local tracks were how KTM/GG/Huskys were all now “piles of chinese shit” and that they wouldn’t buy one. No one would read that the bikes were still made in austria….

Which is goofy shit, because every single major manufacturer of MX bikes builds small bore street bikes in China/India.

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FreshTopEnd
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12/11/2024 12:50pm Edited Date/Time 12/11/2024 1:52pm
gharmon wrote:
I hate to see you go fte. I have never interacted with you that I recall but I always liked your posts and considered them a...

I hate to see you go fte. I have never interacted with you that I recall but I always liked your posts and considered them a worthy read. I have seen your name here for as long as I can remember and I have been hanging out since about 2005'ish ( long before it was vital).  It is no longer my favorite place to be but about the only one I come to anymore.  I totally understand where you are coming from. Being in the medical field I always thought the FTE was cool title. It's a very cool story with amazing results. Here's to hoping you stay around somewhat. 

Thank you.  To be frank, that top end no longer is fresh, and just a set of rings is not going to fix it.

As with the Hotel California . . . 

Observations on subsequent developments re the management cashing in, noting I am not a euro bankruptcy process expert.   But I did start my career as a bankruptcy lawyer dealing with debtor reorganizations, mainly on the creditor side.  The process engaged here appears to be akin to the Chapter 11 reorganization process in the States, not a Chapter 7 liquidation (and not a garden variety consumer Chapter 13 or Chapter 7 proceeding)

Most Chapter 11s are initiated by the debtor and current management stays in control as "debtor in possession."  But the existing management is subject to supervision with different duties to stakeholders, including employees and creditors, rather than purely serving shareholders first.  The object is to give breathing room to prepare and submit a plan of reorganization and prevent any one creditor from recovering its debts in a way that is unbalanced with respect to other creditors' claims.  But that plan has to be agreed to by a certain number of those stakeholders, and absent agreement and approval by the bankruptcy court the shareholders are last in line for recovering their investments.  There also are processes for clawing back fraudulent conveyances, which may reflect actual fraud but more often concern certain payments made when the company effectively is insolvent even if not yet in default on its repayments to third-party creditors.  Again, the aim is to insure that all creditors are treated fairly.

There also are provisions for removing existing management even if they voluntarily initiated the Chapter 11 reorganization and substituting a trustee.   Breaches of fiduciary duty to the company tend to be the reason for removal, usually either by wasting assets through incompetence to the detriment of creditors recovery or misappropriation.  

Our Austrian/Euro brothers can correct me, but I expect the same framework generally is at play here under the governing laws in Austria or the EU, if not more aggressive.  The same principles of insuring all creditors are treated fairly within their rights is pretty foundational to rule of law countries.

Purely speculating, but I have a hard time imagining KTM being liquidated as a going concern.   My understanding is that the motorcycle manufacturing side is the component that drives revenue.  The brand is a source of Austrian pride, and European countries typically are much more supportive of workers as stakeholders than here in the States.  

It would not surprise me if current management is kicked to the curb at some point, and beyond that the sideshow revenue draining initiatives/acquisitions like bicycling are spun off.  Beats me what happens to the Husqvarna and Gas Gas brands, but those seem to me to be just rebranding the baseline KTM product.  In MotoGP they do not even contend they are different apart from labeling and which rider sits on what branded bike.  MV is a different beast.  Going way out on a limb I'd be surprised if KTM was sold to a Chinese company and exited Austria.  It seems more likely that funding would come from India or a petro state in the gulf.  But your guesses are as good as mine regarding that.

Again, leave to the Euro brothers here to correct that, and not going to fight with them.  TTFN

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1
12/11/2024 1:14pm

I'm still stuck on how they are going to get rid of all the unsold bikes. Until that happens it does not make sense to build more new product.

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