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Which we are already allowing our promoters to do under supplemental rules
We have a steering committee put together, including Stark, Cobra, and all of the OEM’s to discuss getting proper rules and the rulebook for the technical specifications of E bikes. Our goal is to have this done in 2023. When the 50 cc size E Bikes were being created, they came to us before the fact, and we created rules so that the rulebook was ready when the bikes were introduced. Unfortunately, Stark just introduced the bike and said make it work, which we are doing, but that takes more time than being prepared proactively.
Even with a very limited number of the bikes out there, I get calls regarding this weekly.
In Starks defense, they have created a way with their app to lock in the horsepower for 24, 48, or 72 hours. I think the competitive balance issue is less of a problem as I think we can figure that part out. It’s the safety issues that the AMA is most concerned with.
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We care, because we know electric bikes are going to be a big part of the future of off-road motorcycling. We have also created national championship classes for the electric bikes at the Daytona amateur Supercross, the GNCC, and the sprint Enduro Championship. Due to lack of advance planning, the bikes don’t fit within the technical parameters of the electric motorcycle section in the rulebook, something that is being currently addressed. I have not said no to a single promoter, asking to run an open e bike class in motocross or off-road, at this point, we just draw the line for gas bikes to compete against bikes they can’t hear coming
You have Formula 1 and Formula E. You have MotoGP and MotoE. You have WRC and you have Extreme E/Group E.
In other types of motorsports they compete separately. Like it or not, that is probably how it's going to end up in Professional and Amateur SX/MX too.
One final note, saying that Stark was difficult to work with was probably a misstatement on my part. Problem is they have different goals than we do. There goal is to race the bikes against gas bikes. End of story. They wouldn’t entertain us running an E bike class Because it’s not what they’re after. So it has been difficult to come up with a solution when our goals are diametrically opposed. I’ll leave you with this, give me an example of a single motorsport that allows internal combustion engine machines to compete against electric machines head to head?
Problem is Stark has no interest in having it's own class. It has always been about "in you face"ing the ICE bikes. I finally got a chance to sit on one of these at a dealer (#50XX) for folks claiming they are pushing 2K a month out of the factory.
You can add one more issue to the E-bike parody circus. The bike felt like a YZ100 on the stand, lighter than any full size ICE bike ever produced. Seeing how bad I got my balls busted for saying the lack of sound would be an issue what are the chances this gets any traction.
Edit: SOG said before I did but it's not the first time I have said it.
I’m not watching an all Electric class national or Supercross. I’m sorry, but sound has SO MUCH to do with it. Look at Formula E.
Putting a speaker in makes sense. They could also provide 1,000 different engine sounds that users could download like ringtones (remember those?) Want your bike to sound like an F1 car? No problem. Bob Hannah's old YZ250? No problem. Willy Wonka's chocolate factory? Yep, there's a tone for that.
I would want my Stark to sound like the Alex Lifeson chord! (F#7+11, for those interested.)
Pikes Peak Unlimited, current record held by and electric vehicle...
Thats great, but the thing that most of the money that funds those races are not ticket sales. Or tv numbers. Its a combination of maunfactures wanting to sell bikes and advertise them by racing people that want to race sinking money in and the money the fans spend. Pro racing as we know it would not be the same if tat wasnt the case.
And with noise being one of the biggest issues for any riding area, it could help grow the numbers of real people riding.
A few years ago I had some friends and customers that got racing go karts and got into racing them. There was alocal track they were able to go to that was 20 to 40 minutes away for most of them. When that track closed , most of them got out of the go karts.
As kids we could go out and ride in the trails and sand pits locally. Those places got slowly shut down. My group of riding buddies slowly decressed until only the more hardcore racers were left.We went from a group of 20 guys down to 5 or so. When cops came to kick us out , they said come back during the week. On colder days when people dont have their windows open. Or while people are working. Most of the land was public but nobody wanted to deal with the pissed off neighbors constantly calling. We could go drive my golf cart for hours, or ride bikes . Nobody noticed, nobody complained.
More people riding those types of places. The less hardcore guys. But still people that are buying bikes ad parts and gear. Puting money into the sport. And if almost silent bikes were around then. We might just have 20 familes with second generation riders instead of the handful now. Without a healthy source of money, they way pro mx and sx is now would not exist. With most big teams operating at a loss. You would see dramic changes other than what it sounds like. Would it look more like nascar or more like monster jam? Who knows for sure, but the people who run sx also own monster jam. If entertainment becomes more of a factor than manufactures want to sell bikes who knows how much of monsterjams way of doing things could be adapted to sx.
For those wondering SlowOldGuy is Mike Burkeen...
I still think just have a truly open class; the fast guy will always win no matter what they are on.
What if a track in the Carolinas started a Winter E race series. How many would come and race it?
Lorettas could have a national championship for only E bikes.
Start with only having Age E classes problem solved. Those have always been run what you brung classes anyway so what’s the difference?
Are def people not allowed to race? They can not hear someone is coming up next to them.
Hi there, thanks for your input.
To answer your last question, how about MotoAmerica where Energica is currently racing (Mesa sits 9th in Super hooligans, podiumed last year)? Or all these years when ebikes were allowed to race AMA Endurocross (and Tremaine got on the podium on the Alta)?
Less anecdotal, how about the sport of... motocross with Ebikes competing against ICE in over a dozen of countries? Do you have any contact with some of these federations appearing to successfully integrate them both at amateur and pro level ?
I was running a check at an enduro this weekend with Starks. I think offroad is the easiest onboarding route for them. Sprint enduro is the obvious place for them as it wouldn't' be a huge stretch to let them charge. Unrelated to your position I know, but a good laboratory to study the issue.
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As he said, the AMA allowed Vargs to race in US Sprint Enduro series, and they're doing fine 😉
Completely agree that a volume around 60db is best once all the bikes are electric. Or maybe even just a horn that was only used when getting near someone. The jump face issue could be sovled with a red light that came on when throttle was chopped. Electric cars already do this, as the regen braking is quite heavy, so the brake lights come one during heavy regen even if the brakes aren't touched.
Unfortunately, when racing against ICE bikes the noise level will have to be higher. Maybe not as high as ICE bikes as there could be speaker facing both forwards and backwards. Something closer to 95db or so....
The Stark is a non-factor in any semi-professional race or AMA national anyway, 25 minutes with a fast rider on a decent track is the most youre gonna get, a deep, heavy track? Just tick off a few minutes.
A friend of mine who is a former pro here in sweden bought one and managed to get 25 minutes in one go on a completely smooth packed track.
That's easy to say, but the AMA, nor local promoters have enough time in the day to create separate classes for 2 stroke/4 stroke/electric, then sub divided by A,B,C,D classes, further divided by Under17,25+,30+,40+,50+,womens,girls, etc.
One of the biggest issue in moto is there being 40 different classes running two motos per day. So you sit around for 12 hours to race two 6 minute races.
It would be interesting to know when you friend experienced this, as Stark had a 14% range increase about 4 months ago (by charging each cell slightly higher and discharging it slightly lower, by my understanding) and just had an update that added 10% range several weeks ago (by tweaking the controller firmware, by my understanding).
Also, being Sweden, what was the outdoor temperature? Most lithium batteries lose about 30% range around 32F (0C). At least in the United States, very little motocross happens at freezing temperatures.
I'm getting much longer run times than your friend encountred on fairly deep tracks, but I'm a fast Vet C or slow Vet B rider, so I'm sure that plays a large part.
@SlowOldGuy Was there a typo in your post quoted with the year 2023?
They delayed because no one is going to buy their kid an electric 65, then 85 only to end up on a 250F right after... It doesn't translate at all.
Oh, well you should let all the people who bought electric 50s know that.
The huge difference with electric dirt bikes is that ameteur racing is a large part of the sport. I don't know anyone that races F1, MotoGP, WRC as an ametuer. I'm sure there are a couple of people, but it's not comparable to motocross. Even at lower level, open wheel car racing, roadracing motorcycles, rally cars have a very small number of participants compared to motocross, GNCC, desert racing, etc.
Second, to my knowledge they aren't trying to shut down F1 or MotoGP tracks due to sound, for the reason that they run races a few times a year, instead of 3-4 times per week, like many dirt bike tracks.
I bet that a Factory Stark team could get a 30 minute moto out of a battery. They might have to run less power, and do things that would abuse the battery and not let it last as long. Like going even deeper into how far it can discharge before shutting off. Its so close already that it could be done. It just might not be doable for the average person because of how bad it would be for the battery. Some of the newer cells could also squeeze out some more runtime. They might not finish every moto. But I bet that they could get some more runtime out of a battery if long term life was not a factor. I hope they get a chance to try. It would be interesting.
Yes, 2025
I bet that it would prepare them better to deal with the giant increase in torque that they would get from jumping on a 250F from a 2 stroke 85.
If anything I bet it was pushback from other brands that still make 85 class race bikes. In the 50 class who else makes a race bike? Cobra. Jump up to the 65 class and You have Cobra and Yamaha , ( forgot to add Kawasaki in the 65 class) in addition to the KTM's. Then in the 85 class You have Yamaha & Kawasaki and Honda who was stuck in the supermini class with their 4 stroke. So You might have pushback from those guys when the time came to making the rules. In the 50 class, none of those guys care except maybe Cobra. But they are working on electric too for the 50 and 65 size bikes I think.
I think that a supermini sized electric would be a great step up from a Surron style bike. One that could have an aftermarket like pit bikes. That could be adapted for all sizes and styles of riders. And I think that Yamaha might just have the same idea since their electric bike looks like its a supermini sized bike.
Post a reply to: Re: Stark-My conversation with Mike Burkeen, AMA Deputy Director of Racing