LONG POST!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!
Caveats:
I was speaking with Mike Burkeen who works for the AMA. I’m sure his thoughts and opinions don’t necessarily reflect the AMA’s corporate stance. I am relaying the conversation I had this evening to the best of my ability. I did not record the call, but wrote down notes about an hour after the call ended.
Details:
I called the AMA earlier today to express my displeasure about not being able to race my Stark Varg in AMA sanctioned motocross. Mike Burkeen called me back about four hours later and we had a lengthy phone conversation. Mike is both friendly and very knowledgeable about the subject. Also, it’s easy to understand he truly loves motocross and genuinely cares about the sport. He is the father of motocross YouTuber Matt Burkeen, whose videos I enjoy very much.
Regarding E-bikes in general, the AMA has two major concerns which are: parity in competition and safety.
Mike acknowledged that the four stroke rules didn’t turn out the best, and the AMA really wants to avoid a repeat mistake with regard to electric bike rules. He said that peak HP is not the solution for parity, as electric bikes make more horsepower and torque at throttle opening. He also stated that electric powered machinery does not complete with ICE bikes in any other competition.
On the safety issue, the AMA sees two different problems with electric bikes. The first is that riders can not hear nearby riders, thus increasing the chance of cross jump, cutting off, etc other riders. This issue is hazardous to both other riders and the electric bike rider themselves. The second safety issue relates to leaving jump faces. With an ICE bike, it’s fairly easy to determine if the rider in front of you chops the throttle up a jump face. With a silent electric bike, this is much more difficult to judge, increasing the possibility of jumping on top of another rider. This issue is also dangerous for both riders.
Regarding Stark in particular, he relayed that Stark hasn’t been working hand in hand with the AMA. When the OEMs were working to create the electric 50s, they worked with the AMA for three years prior to the 50s release to ensure the AMA had time to create the correct classes and regulations. It seems like Stark hasn’t been doing this well. He also said they have been in talks with Starks frequently and communicated the safety issue regarding noise to Stark over eight months ago. Stark hasn’t responded with any solutions to the noise issue that he is aware of. He also stated that Stark hasn’t homologated the bikes yet. I forgot to ask if this was required for professional SMX only, or also applied to amateur racing.
WHAT I AGREE WITH:
1. Parity should be figured out. However, I feel that because electric dirt bikes can change power output with an app in a matter of seconds, it doesn’t have the same “can’t get it wrong” scenario as the 250cc and 450cc rules that were made for four strokes. Once the manufacturers invested millions of dollars in engineering and tooling, the AMA couldn’t just change it to 200cc and 380cc the next year. If the AMA decides that 50HP on electric bikes is parity for the 450 class, they can literally change it the next race with very little issues. All the Stark riders can simply set their maximum HP to 48 the next weekend.
2. Safety should be figured out. I feel that a Bluetooth or wired speaker could be connected to the Stark Varg phone and modulate decibel/pitch level depending on throttle position. I have a tech background and this problem is about 1/1000 the difficulty of designing and manufacturing the Stark.
WHAT I WANT STARK TO DO:
1. Have a working relationship with the AMA. I believe the United States is the largest market for dirt bikes in the world. It’s insane not to work together with the AMA for the good of everyone. I understand Stark was basically a start up for many years, but it’s time to grow up and invest time/money in relationships, especially the important ones.
2. Design a speaker for the bike!!!
WHAT I WANT THE AMA TO DO:
1. Please develop a working relationship with Stark, even if they haven’t been the easiest to work with. They were trying to create a brand-new electric bike in the depths of the Covid supply chain nightmare. Cut them a little slack for the good of all motorcycle riders.
WHAT I WISH ALL STARK OWNERS WOULD DO:
1. Put pressure on Stark to develop the speaker. Put pressure on Stark to work with the AMA.
2. Put pressure on the AMA to work with Stark.
WHAT I WISH ALL ICE DIRT BIKE OWNERS WOULD DO:
1. Realize that more options for people owning dirt bikes is a good thing. Nobody will make you buy/ride an electric dirt bike against your will.
2. Realize that no matter what you ride, we are all having fun riding our bikes, and we share that in common!!
Good info, Thanks 👍
Pretty cool that’s Matt’s dad…
I don't think the AMA should be the least bit concerned about parity... because the issue can be 100%, totally, completely avoided by creating a separate class for them. If they didn't learn anything else from the 4T/2T "parity" disaster, they should know that this is an apples to oranges issue, not a Golden Delicious vs. Honeycrisp one like the different IC engines were.
Has stark paid up as a member for the ama council yet ?
Not according to AMA's website...
https://americanmotorcyclist.com/members-community/business-member-program/business-member-listing/
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Doesn't look like they have paid to be an OEM Level 1. Costs $15,000 per year. Probably worth it if you'd like to participate in AMA Pro Racing and get the rules/regulations updated for electric bikes. I love my Stark and Stark Future as a company, but I'm starting to see area's where they need to step up. I had a lot of angst against the AMA prior to talking with Mike Burkeen. I'm starting to feel most of the issue is with Stark and not the AMA.
I fully understand the parity problem - that will be a tough one to solve. History has shown that it’s almost impossible to set parity rules for different Motorsport engine platforms and for those rules to stay effective for any period of time without constant tweaking and modification.
The noise issue as a safety problem is complete BS. Don’t fabricate problems to suit the situation.
Personally, I've had two sketchy moments involving Starks in the last couple of months at Fox Raceway because I can't even hear the dang things.
I’m sure there are a small number of scenarios where a loud bike might be beneficial, but the logic is mostly flawed. If it were a genuine safety issue the logical conclusion is that we should be running the loudest bikes possible to avoid incidents.
If everyone was on an electric bike then it wouldn’t be an issue. It’s only a potential problem if you have electric and ICE bikes on the same track.
Stark doesn't have a corporate headquarters in the US, so they are ineligible.
I know of someone that broke a collarbone as they turned down into the guy following due to not knowing he was there , it’s an issue , had not throught of the jump situation. Either
For what its worth, my opinion is that electric bikes have their place in their own class. Not against burners.
Hearing something at 100db does not mean it’s better at 200db.
If every bike was 60db that would be the ideal, the ideal is a volume you can hear over the volume of your own bike given speed/wind speed etc etc. too loud and you distinguish between your bike and other bikes, too quiet and you can’t hear it over the general riding noise (wind, chain, brakes, tyres etc etc) - pitch also matters and direction and noise relative to bike speed.
The good safety thing about making a standardised app based noise is the consistency of distance - speed - volume so you don’t have Barcia overrev making someone feel closer and the Ken low rev sneaking up on you…
They are trying it with cars https://youtu.be/ZnAGXvVNMB8?feature=shared
Why dont everyone just make a separate class for them? EMX-E and "E" class in AMA. Work on combining them with regular bikes later once there is a clear idea of their performance against the ICE bikes
Can't wait to see a Stark with a loudspeaker that makes "Brraaaaaaaaaaaap"!...
🤣
Same here, luckily just on flat ground so far.
Every time they pass me, I basically flinch as I had no idea they where there.
And that is the situation, right? You can't separate based on rider level, and also throw in a new bike type. You will get 10min of riding per hour.
"If everyone was on an electric bike then it wouldn’t be an issue."
Because when you're on a silent bike, then all of a sudden you hear other silent bikes coming?
😉
Mirrors and horns mandatory for everyone!
🤣
Pit Row
Gosh, how ever do MTB riders manage?
I could be completely wrong but last I checked everyone (including you) were discussing performance balancing between electric bikes and ICE bikes, thus implying that the discussion is about both being on thr track at the same time, making the safety concern (by your own admission) valid..
They absolutely do not have a place together in the same class in amateur racing. They need their own class. How do you balance that in a cost effective way for any technical protests? Do local tracks now need to purchase a wheel dyno and ban your phone from being within 50 ft of your bike for the duration of the race day?
As a result of being so quick and easy to swap power modes, what’s stopping someone from riding in 80hp mode, then swapping to 50hp mode right after the race? What actually proves you’re in 50hp mode at any point a dyno? Can’t trust the app because I’m sure it wouldn’t be the craziest thing in the world to tamper with that to display a different power mode.
You're paranoid, nobody runs big bore kits, nobody runs illegal fuel, factories never use non-production frames.
Just give them their own classes in Amateur racing.
Do NOT try to merge eMX with MX.
Then watch after a year or two how the gates are full of eMX bikes in their own eMX classes.
When people buy more eMX and they become more popular than those “new” classes for eMX then “the cream will rise to the top”.
This way the ICE loyalist still have their classes and won’t be so mad in the future when the pro classes becomes eMX because that is what sells and pays the bills for the manufactures.
I am guessing there are not enough bikes yet for promotors to mess with an electric only class. No one wants to set up a moto with 5 riders on the gate.
It seems that simple to me.
If Stark isn't interested in being proactive and addressing issues, why should the AMA care at all? Denying the noise issue is silly. Just because Stark owners want to race the things doesn't mean there's any real motivation from the other side to make that happen. I highly doubt there's enough people not showing up to race because they can't race their Stark to make it worth figuring out at this point.
This only further confirms my belief that they were hoping to have unloaded the company a long time ago. Zero foresight on so many issues.
Like if we were just talking National pro classes whatever Feld and MX Sports can suck it up and purchase the necessary tech inspection equipment…but the track down the street that struggles to break even every race day as is should not be expected to have items available should a protest ever come up. They’re exceedingly rare in local races depending on the importance of the track but if it happens..
This is already in the rule book where electric bikes are allowed. The app must "lock" the horsepower app, for 24 or 48 hours so riders can't be changing them. The bikes also flash a certain color for 250 HP mode and 450 HP mode to the gate people can confirm its correct. Just like they can look at your engine head and make sure you didn't put 250 plastics on a 450.
Thus, if you want to race both 250 and 450 races on the same weekend, you must lock your bike in 250 mode. This is exactly what my son does with his ICE 250F. He races it in the 250 and 450 class. Want to race both 250 and 450 HP mode? Buy two bikes, just like the ICE guys do.
The AMA should care because the AMA knows that every OEM is working on electric bikes. Honda's electric big bike is close and KTM has been working on an electric 65 and 85 for years, but delayed it's release for unknown reasons.
It's unlikely the local track has the tools to measure a bike's displacement, or the fuel, or the frame, as @AgileMike pointed out the Stark's power mode can be checked on the gate by looking at the color of the light.
The fastest rider will still win.
Post a reply to: Re: Stark-My conversation with Mike Burkeen, AMA Deputy Director of Racing