Feedback on New Fuel-Injected KTM Two-Strokes?

Sounds like a love/hate relationship. I would think waiting a couple of iterations would be smart with these.

Well here goes. I have a 24 250xc and a 24 300sx. Rode both tonight.  Freind was there with his 24 yz with a pipe.porting and v force. I rode it for about 5 minutes.  First thing I noticed its a lot quicker then my 250xc and every bit as quick as my 300. Mine are 100% stock.  It vibrates. The ktms are vibration free. My 300 has more bottom . That carbed yz comes on a bit harder in the mid then the 300. Similar over rev. The ktms are more refined feeling. Smoother. The yz more visceral.Old school 2 stroke. I liked it a lot. But not enough to go blue.

Gotta love counterbalancing

I’ll take my carb counter balanced 250sx over my tbi all day. The estart is nice but that is all they have going for them compared to the prior generation with a carb. They are a fair bit heavier then the 17-22(they weight what a 19-22 450sxf does) not to mention there is no rider tuning options(jetting or pv adjustment) without spending coin. First guy I used for tunes reflashed my ecu twice, hated both, second guy got me a tune that’s “ok” so I’m going to roll with it. 

There also has been a wide variety of random issues with the TBI’s in general, browse the FB groups and you probably won’t want one afterwards. There’s lots of carnage. 

Wish they would have left the GG with a carb and added estart, they would have sold a boat load of them. 

There were substantial issues with the 2023 models when they first came out.  You didn't see hardly any KTM 2 stroke FI bikes at large races.

However, this spring there are tons of them running well at large races.  I think the gremlims have been figured out, either by KTM or by the riders/parents.  I know the ECU reflash was a huge deal with the 2023 125s.  At least one YouTuber running back to back dynos with a flashed 2023 125 put on similar power to a full mod motor carbed 2022. 

So don't believe everyone telling you the FI bikes make less power.  As soon as FI is dialed in, it will make more power.  Listen to the Gypsy Tales pod with Jamie at Twisted Development.  He is a long term motor guy and super knowledgable.  He explains exactly why FI will beat carbs every time.  FI is simply able to be fine tuned about 100x better than a carb which basically uses suction to pull fuel/air in.

they are great

I wouldn't go as far as that when comparing carb and EFI on a single cylinder two stroke with so few sensors.

Without a MAP sensor (not simply acting as a barometric sensor) and ​​​a lambda sensor, it is quite basic with limited parameters (I appreciate a lambda sensor may not last long in a two stroke application).

Tuning stability and predictably across different conditions (when the ECU is calibrated correctly) is where the bonus lies imo.

I haven't owned one, but my opinion is pretty much the same as yours after trying them.

I've ridden the TC125 and the TC250, both belong to a buddy. 
I rode them with the stock setup with a dealer reflashed OE ECU at my own track.
The day I rode the TC250 I had my mechanically tight and lightly modified YZ250 out on the track as well.

The '23 TC125 sucked.  The front end felt harsh and it just felt like a corked up old woods bike with pump gas and clean / lean jetting.
I think my buddy had the fork setup wrong, or his dealer had the forks misaligned.  It was terrible.
The engine lacked any form of excitement and just went flat on top.   This was supposed to be an updated mapping.  Maybe he got that one bike that's a complete lemon?

The '23 TC250 was a damned decent bike.  No way is this a race bike setting.   The bike is plush, soft, pleasant and easy to ride on my sandy little arenacross style track.   The engine is fairly smooth, most would say linear and predictable, but by no means a fast 250.   I expected a harsh front end after riding the TC125, but the 250 wasn't terrible.

As a pure race bike for a faster guy (or faster old guy) the YZ250 is superior and a 2022 KTM 250SX with an upgraded fork is superior.   The YZ and the carbureted KTM have a lot more meat in the mid range and keep pulling with excitement up top.

In my experience the previous generation of KTM 150SX and 250SX engines have the most potential of all the two strokes I've ridden.  With a little tuning (PV setting, Head & cylinder height, jetting) and a pipe, they flat out rip.   

I believe these EFI bikes will be better after a few iterations, but for me they take away any advantage of a simple two stroke over owning a four stroke.

I have a 300sx and it’s been great, recently added the TSP erm to it and it’s way better.  I am around 40hrs and it’s been nothing but fun.  
 

Granted, when all the piston issues were popping up with the 23’s I changed mine out to a wossner that I modified a bit.  Other than that it just gets normal maintenance and ridden.  

The bigger question, what CC bike would you be considering?  The issues/resolutions are different for the 3.  I think as someone else mentioned, most of the issues on the 2023 models have been addressed for the most-part.

I cannot find this Gypsy Tales episode with Jamie from TD. Was it being discussed in a different episode with someone else? 

I’m super interested in the 25 sx250 and am considering getting rid of my 23 sxf250 at the end of the year to go back to the smoker. I have a new 450 as well and before I went full 4 stroke in 2019 I was 100% a 2 stroke guy. Had a 03 cr250 which was bullet proof, but slow and awkward as hell. I was a Suzuki guy forever and loved every one of my RMs however I did find my 07 yz250 to be slightly better than the yellow ones. Also had a 12 & 15 sx250 which gave me nothing but problems, almost gave up on orange forever, but I’ve had a completely different experience with the 4 strokes, plus I really like the air forks. Rode a buddies 300 last year and I thought it was awesome, not as good as my 450 but definitely a sick bike. 
Racing local 250A on the 250f has yielded some good results for me, however a lot of the time I feel I’m out powered by the smokers so that’s why I’m considering going back at the end of this year. I guess I’ll have to try a new sx250 to confirm it but what are people’s thoughts on the new smokers vs 250fs?

I've had several late model YZ250's and KTM250/300SX's both carbed and TBI. Currently on a 300SX 23'. I do absolutely love this bike, and it runs super clean in every season here in New England, which always took re-jetting on every carbed bike. Is it as outright strong as my 21' 250SX, no. It's close though, and way smoother, and broader. I used to despise the thought of e-start on a two stroke but dammit I've become addicted to it.  The YZ's were super  bikes too, but for me there is no going back. The counter balancer, e-start. and TBI are all pluses to me. 

That said, I wouldn't mind if KTM pumped up the power some so that a 250TBI compared to the old carbed SX, and the 300 was a step above. Also, it will be nice when the aftermarket figures out the ECU in the way that they have for the four strokes. There's actually more potential there with the power valve control, so ultimately the TBI two strokes should be completely amazing. 

I have nothing but good things to say about my 24 GasGas.   I only have 10 hours on it and so far it’s been the best stock 250 I’ve ever had.  

The engine is silky smooth but runs very well.   It runs much like a cylinder reed CR250.  
I also think this generation handles a lot  better than the previous gen Austrian machines.  It just goes right where you point it without a fuss.  

I won’t ever go back to a YZ250 as long as they stay stuck in 1999.   
 

I'm not a mx'er, I race woods but I've had three of the TBI 2stks. '23 250XC, '23 300SX and '24 TX300 (Husky) and I haven't had any issues with any of them besides some issues with the stock FI maps. I had my Husky remapped with TSP (not the ERM) and I like it now, it ran ok before but felt pretty lean in the mid/top and very rich on the bottom. TSP remap just cleaned things up a bit. Friend of mine has a '24 TE300 and at like 8hrs had to replace the fuel pump on his because the bike would randomly die then act fine after a few mins of sitting. He's the only one in my riding group that's had any issues though. I ride with two more guys that own TBI's ('24 300SX and '24 300XCW) and neither of them have had any issues and they are both bone stock. The new frame and electronics with the TBI did add some weight to the bikes but I only notice that when picking it up. I don't really feel the weight when riding, to me the biggest change was the chassis stiffness. 

I really like the YZ platform though, I've owned a handful of YZ's and an X and I really like their chassis, power characteristics and suspension. Like mentioned before they feel more old school than the Austrian brands but theirs nothing wrong old school. 

23 300SX. 90hrs still on original top end & clutch, mostly Mx some GNCC . love this bike. If I could only have 1 bike this would be it. Can ride Mx one day, then add bark busters & large tank , race a GNCC the next. I ran mine stock for 40hrs then had ECU remapped by J Ross to lesson the monster midrange hit on aggressive map, I only use 1 map now, smooth as butter but still rev”s out nice. Raced the Florida GNCC this spring, race was a 2.5 hr wet, sand mud bog, bike did not skip a beat. They will only get better with more R&D…I have had plenty of YZ”s, they are a solid platform and good bike, it’s hard to get excited about the same bike over & over again. 

For the 2017-2022 (and 2023 GG) they are all basically the same.  Ideally, avoid 2017 as there were issues with the cases breaking that year and there might still be some bikes floating around with the original cases, not upgraded.  In 2019 the frame was changed a little (stiffer) and the 2021 and newer air forks are quite nicer than the previous years.   Ideally, get a 2021 and newer with low hours.

As for the TBI's in short, they are garbage.   They are an insult to everything a 2-stroke is supposed to be.   Guys who have them are forced to convince themselves they are good.  But when they throw an FI code and pull their hair out trying to fix the thing they won't come back here and admit it.. LOL  Sorry, but adding 10 pounds and a bunch of electrical junk with gremlins to a 2-stroke was the dumbest move ever.

There are more folks out there that are running the new TBI bikes with no issues than there are ones with issues. The ones with issues just happen to be the most vocal about them.

I've got a '23 250 and 300XC. The 250 is basically stock outside of a spring conversion. The 300 has a bit more work done to it, including a TSP reflash and head, however both bikes ran perfectly fine stock. Would not think twice going this route again.

And don’t forget once you get a few hrs on them . The pv sticks and gets worse as the parts start wearing from it sticking. 

I have a ‘18 250xc with about 180 hrs on it, absolutely great bike.  Have ridden everything from hangtown practice days to Donner hare scrambles and has always been great running. 

They ride differently is the best way I can describe it. Less of that 2 stroke powerband & more of the 4 stroke smoothness. 
 

If that interests you, go for it. Personally, I like the feeling of the traditional 2 stroke. All a matter of taste

I know right!  
4-strokes were also better with a carb and they never had any electrical issues until they went to fuel injection.  They are just so unreliable now 🙄

Pro.. what about your electronic controlled power valve on your mighty 2004 cr125?  That was the predecessor to these Austrian machines.  Pretty much the same concept but carbureted.    

I had a 23 KTM 125 XC for a month or so before I sold it. I fouled one plug, but the bike ran well. The guy that bought it from me has races it and loves it. No regrets from him.

That being said, I found a pristine 23 YZ250X the next day that I bought and wouldn’t trade her for the world. I’m not in love with the stock suspension yet and I’m still struggling to get it to work for my slow ass, but worst case I get it revalved.

As unhappy as I am with the YZX suspension, I thought it is worlds better than the KTM. I think most people have that same belief though. I do miss the magic button, but it definitely not a deal breaker. I’ve been kick starting bikes my whole life, I’m good with it.

Edit: As AgileMike said, the last ECU flashes seemed to help. I also see a lot of them at the hair scrambles that I’m racing in. They seem to fly by me with no problem.

What is everyone running for gearing?  I picked up a 2024 KTM 250 SX last weekend, I just got to finish greasing it today, I only got to ride it around the shop at work because its so muddy around here from all the rain we have been getting. It seems like its geared pretty tall. It 14-49 stock, My old bike was a 2019 250 SX and I ran 14-51 on that and it worked out pretty good.

I loved my 2019 the only reason I'm replacing it is because of my hip and knee issues I have I needed the electric start. I couldn't start it unless I had my left foot on my bike stand or a berm when I crashed out on the track.

Thanks