Are 4-strokes here to stay or is there a lighter, more efficient and faster combustion engine tech in the future of dirtbikes

2/14/2024 8:54am

Nope. 4 strokes are here to stay until electric takes over unfortunately. The only thing I could see happening are engine modifications. Maybe running different fuels like diesel? Or adding forced induction applications like turbos. But even that is unlikely. Bikes are already fast enough.

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Magoofan
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2/14/2024 9:02am Edited Date/Time 2/14/2024 9:04am
Personally I think listening to 20+ electric whiney dirtbikes would sound like a55hole. Not to mention the voices of riders cussing each other out. Now add...

Personally I think listening to 20+ electric whiney dirtbikes would sound like a55hole. Not to mention the voices of riders cussing each other out. Now add 20+ bikes and chain slap, plastic resonating, tire noise....yuck.

Someone posted this video (below) in one of the never-ending e-threads.

This is your electric future.     Watch (start at 49 sec) the gate drop and racing part of the video while imagining being in a stadium or at the nationals.  Good luck with that.  

The sport is dead when/if it comes to this.      

 

 

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2/14/2024 9:11am

The grill is the shape of a M for Mack a lot of people don’t know that. See the lineer amp on the dash? Palimeer 2,500 with pre amp . With a big single antenna I had the gauges to set the swr perfectly. Old school  cobra 29 night vision with galaxy internals tweeked and peaked. I could b on the mtn in flag staff hear and talk smack to Bakersfield , Ca. Bruce’s ts insanely crazy ts. Funny an old timer  at Jessup,Md. ts ton of women running around. He was saying shut that lineer off you butt wipe. I,m trying to watch Elf episodes I taped.haha  Yeah I could drive through your neighbor hood & key up . And bleed ovr the tv volume.  Saying all kinds of nutty stuff. 

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ATKpilot99
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2/14/2024 9:19am
The grill is the shape of a M for Mack a lot of people don’t know that. See the lineer amp on the dash? Palimeer 2,500...

The grill is the shape of a M for Mack a lot of people don’t know that. See the lineer amp on the dash? Palimeer 2,500 with pre amp . With a big single antenna I had the gauges to set the swr perfectly. Old school  cobra 29 night vision with galaxy internals tweeked and peaked. I could b on the mtn in flag staff hear and talk smack to Bakersfield , Ca. Bruce’s ts insanely crazy ts. Funny an old timer  at Jessup,Md. ts ton of women running around. He was saying shut that lineer off you butt wipe. I,m trying to watch Elf episodes I taped.haha  Yeah I could drive through your neighbor hood & key up . And bleed ovr the tv volume.  Saying all kinds of nutty stuff. 

wtf-icegif

3

The Shop

MxAddic
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2/14/2024 9:19am
The grill is the shape of a M for Mack a lot of people don’t know that. See the lineer amp on the dash? Palimeer 2,500...

The grill is the shape of a M for Mack a lot of people don’t know that. See the lineer amp on the dash? Palimeer 2,500 with pre amp . With a big single antenna I had the gauges to set the swr perfectly. Old school  cobra 29 night vision with galaxy internals tweeked and peaked. I could b on the mtn in flag staff hear and talk smack to Bakersfield , Ca. Bruce’s ts insanely crazy ts. Funny an old timer  at Jessup,Md. ts ton of women running around. He was saying shut that lineer off you butt wipe. I,m trying to watch Elf episodes I taped.haha  Yeah I could drive through your neighbor hood & key up . And bleed ovr the tv volume.  Saying all kinds of nutty stuff. 

If an E-bike had that kind of power it would be...

t 0

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1911
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2/14/2024 9:23am

IMG 3295 0This is the only correct answer 

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BobDog
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2/14/2024 9:27am
Personally I think listening to 20+ electric whiney dirtbikes would sound like a55hole. Not to mention the voices of riders cussing each other out. Now add...

Personally I think listening to 20+ electric whiney dirtbikes would sound like a55hole. Not to mention the voices of riders cussing each other out. Now add 20+ bikes and chain slap, plastic resonating, tire noise....yuck.

Magoofan wrote:
Someone posted this video (below) in one of the never-ending e-threads. This is your electric future.     Watch (start at 49 sec) the gate drop and...

Someone posted this video (below) in one of the never-ending e-threads.

This is your electric future.     Watch (start at 49 sec) the gate drop and racing part of the video while imagining being in a stadium or at the nationals.  Good luck with that.  

The sport is dead when/if it comes to this.      

 

 

early
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2/14/2024 9:31am

Most new engine technology is being developed as generator range extenders for electric drivetrains. This involves optimized power and fuel efficiency at a narrow rpm range.

Hydrogen doesn't make alot of sense for mobile applications, especially in combustion engines. Currently available hydrogen vehicles use fuel cells and electric drive trains.

In dirtbikes, we could see some wild hybrid drive trains; 50cc DI 2 stroke engines turning generators charging small hybrid lithium/supercapacitor batteries powering the electric motor finaldrive in sub 200 lb bikes.

2
2/14/2024 9:35am Edited Date/Time 2/14/2024 9:37am

It will depend on future legislation. If the powers that be continue ramming 'letrics down our throats, we will have no choice.

If the market decides, I see 4-strokes for quite a while. Possibly with DI.

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BobPA
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2/14/2024 9:39am
Beagle wrote:
Yeah sorry, Rotax are the Austrian aircraft engines manufacturer who made rotary engines for some bikes like Aprilia, BMW, KTM, Bimota. I'm sure they were great...

Yeah sorry, Rotax are the Austrian aircraft engines manufacturer who made rotary engines for some bikes like Aprilia, BMW, KTM, Bimota. I'm sure they were great fun but it stayed very "niche".

I believe you are confusing some things here. Firstly,

Rotax is an Austrian engine manufacturer owned by BRP. They produce engines for all BRP products including Ski-Doo, Sea-Doo, Can-Am, etc. They also have an aircraft division, kart racing division, and private label division. 

The "rotary Rotax" you are thinking of is not a Wankel engine (no pistons). They were two-stroke engines with a rotary valve instead of a reed valve system. Instead of reeds, they had a flat piece of stainless that was timed to close the intake port at an optimal time. They made them for years in motorcycles, sleds, and PWCs. 

A Wankel is what is in my profile picture. I do not see them producing enough power, naturally aspirated, to be competitive with modern four-strokes. I have had them apart more times than I would like to admit, but they make some great power with boost.

7
2/14/2024 9:57am

I will miss the sound of the start. I miss the sound of a nation start with 2 strokes. I will not miss the 4 stroke sounds as much. The smell of race fuel and exhaust is another thing that I do have fond memories from. Again with the 2 stroke smells being better.  

But honestly,  I bet that a lot of people have watched a race with the sound turned off or way way down while they were at work or doing something that required them to be quiet. Other than a panic rev here and there, the sound of the crowd getting wild is more of a tell tale sign of something going on that is exciting. 

Feld can add some music or sound effects for the start.  I would argue that anybody who stops riding, or watching and going to races was not a hard core fan anyway.  People sit in a stadium in heavy rain to watch a race. 

 

As far as watching on TV, getting rid of engine sound would not impact the viewing experience as much as it could impact being there live.  But it will open up new ways of engaging with fans. 

With the engine noise being much less, in helmet communication would be easy to do and get quality sound. They could sell apps that You pay to listen to a rider or team during the race. Include some of that audio in the live show and broadcast. And make it safer by being able to tell riders when a rider is down.  Imagine a racer getting a live update that they are going to be put down a spot or fined, while still in the heat of the battle. Could make for some interesting stuff. And getting to hear the riders and team people on the com's , would help fans get to know riders and team personal on new levels.   

 

2
2
2/14/2024 10:11am
I will miss the sound of the start. I miss the sound of a nation start with 2 strokes. I will not miss the 4 stroke...

I will miss the sound of the start. I miss the sound of a nation start with 2 strokes. I will not miss the 4 stroke sounds as much. The smell of race fuel and exhaust is another thing that I do have fond memories from. Again with the 2 stroke smells being better.  

But honestly,  I bet that a lot of people have watched a race with the sound turned off or way way down while they were at work or doing something that required them to be quiet. Other than a panic rev here and there, the sound of the crowd getting wild is more of a tell tale sign of something going on that is exciting. 

Feld can add some music or sound effects for the start.  I would argue that anybody who stops riding, or watching and going to races was not a hard core fan anyway.  People sit in a stadium in heavy rain to watch a race. 

 

As far as watching on TV, getting rid of engine sound would not impact the viewing experience as much as it could impact being there live.  But it will open up new ways of engaging with fans. 

With the engine noise being much less, in helmet communication would be easy to do and get quality sound. They could sell apps that You pay to listen to a rider or team during the race. Include some of that audio in the live show and broadcast. And make it safer by being able to tell riders when a rider is down.  Imagine a racer getting a live update that they are going to be put down a spot or fined, while still in the heat of the battle. Could make for some interesting stuff. And getting to hear the riders and team people on the com's , would help fans get to know riders and team personal on new levels.   

 

That's a no from me dawg.

MxAddic
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2/14/2024 10:20am

"As far as watching on TV, getting rid of engine sound would not impact the viewing experience as much as it could impact being there live.  But it will open up new ways of engaging with fans."

Hell yeah, they could play engine noises over the PA and on the TV broadcast. The dumb fuks would never know the diff.

As long as they have the Taylor Swift of MX to root for with branded crap posted all over them.

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GangGreen
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2/14/2024 10:39am Edited Date/Time 2/14/2024 11:47am

Things tend go in cycles, what if "Motocross specific":

1960 -1975 = 4 stroke motorcycles, 1976 - 2007 = 2 stroke motorcycles, 2007 - 2027 - 4 stroke motorcycles

2027 and beyond = low emissions , less costly, light weight, easy maintenance 2 strokes?

https://www.evinrude.com.au/OwnersResources/FAQs/IsEvinrudeE-TECa2-Strokeora4-Stroketechnology

https://global.yamaha-motor.com/business/outboards/products/2st/200-60/

https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2023-24-0068/

https://www.ccjdigital.com/business/article/14938109/peterbilt-579-ultra-low-emission-two-stroke-being-tested

4 stroke engines are not better, they are just given a ridiculous "double-displacement" advantage.

5
1
2/14/2024 10:55am

When the gate is full off electric bikes the sport as of racing will die i can promise you that. But more riders will probably ride for fun but as racing we need sound of an engine otherwise no one will watch it.

4
2/14/2024 11:09am

All the manufactures are investing in electric technology, long term its going to be more cost effective for them.  I dont see any new combustion engines being developed before the E bikes take over.  I do think there will be changes to the frames and suspension, because bikes will not need to incorporate an IC engine.

Magoofan
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2/14/2024 11:16am
When the gate is full off electric bikes the sport as of racing will die i can promise you that. But more riders will probably ride...

When the gate is full off electric bikes the sport as of racing will die i can promise you that. But more riders will probably ride for fun but as racing we need sound of an engine otherwise no one will watch it.

Agree with everything you said other than "more riders for fun".    Racing is a huge part of sales.     People are crazy if they think ebike racing is going to draw crowds.     Sales are going to take a hit..

Also killing sales, electric flat out doesn't work for long days in the hills/deserts or BDRs.    Battery technology isn't going to advance enough to cover that.    When gas goes bye bye...and it will...that will be the death blow.     You literally need some space-age  power source in a small enough package for dirt bikes....and that isn't coming any time soon.

 

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GangGreen
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2/14/2024 11:23am
early wrote:
Most new engine technology is being developed as generator range extenders for electric drivetrains. This involves optimized power and fuel efficiency at a narrow rpm range...

Most new engine technology is being developed as generator range extenders for electric drivetrains. This involves optimized power and fuel efficiency at a narrow rpm range.

Hydrogen doesn't make alot of sense for mobile applications, especially in combustion engines. Currently available hydrogen vehicles use fuel cells and electric drive trains.

In dirtbikes, we could see some wild hybrid drive trains; 50cc DI 2 stroke engines turning generators charging small hybrid lithium/supercapacitor batteries powering the electric motor finaldrive in sub 200 lb bikes.

1
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Village Idiot
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2/14/2024 11:28am

"...or is there a lighter, more efficient and faster combustion engine tech in the future of dirtbikes..."

Back to the future?

That engine already exists but was retired by the AMA and manufacturers through rules that put it at a huge disadvantge and a desire to make dirt bikes highly profitable by and for the OEMs and aftermarket.

Will it come back as the primary engine in MX bikes? Not if the OEMs and aftermarket can help it, since they make waaaaaaay more money off the 4-strokes than they ever did off 2-strokes.

3
2/14/2024 12:32pm
I will miss the sound of the start. I miss the sound of a nation start with 2 strokes. I will not miss the 4 stroke...

I will miss the sound of the start. I miss the sound of a nation start with 2 strokes. I will not miss the 4 stroke sounds as much. The smell of race fuel and exhaust is another thing that I do have fond memories from. Again with the 2 stroke smells being better.  

But honestly,  I bet that a lot of people have watched a race with the sound turned off or way way down while they were at work or doing something that required them to be quiet. Other than a panic rev here and there, the sound of the crowd getting wild is more of a tell tale sign of something going on that is exciting. 

Feld can add some music or sound effects for the start.  I would argue that anybody who stops riding, or watching and going to races was not a hard core fan anyway.  People sit in a stadium in heavy rain to watch a race. 

 

As far as watching on TV, getting rid of engine sound would not impact the viewing experience as much as it could impact being there live.  But it will open up new ways of engaging with fans. 

With the engine noise being much less, in helmet communication would be easy to do and get quality sound. They could sell apps that You pay to listen to a rider or team during the race. Include some of that audio in the live show and broadcast. And make it safer by being able to tell riders when a rider is down.  Imagine a racer getting a live update that they are going to be put down a spot or fined, while still in the heat of the battle. Could make for some interesting stuff. And getting to hear the riders and team people on the com's , would help fans get to know riders and team personal on new levels.   

 

That's a no from me dawg.

So lets say Your TV is messed up and You have the choice of watching the SX next week without sound, or not at all.  You are going to not watch it????   

 

People will watch Electric MX racing when they have their own electric MX bikes. The relatability that makes ball sports so big is the thing that draws you in.  

Way way way more people ride and race MTB's .  I've been in a local race with 700 people in my class. No sound and plenty of people ride and race and watch racing. 

 

For me Moto is so much more than the sound.  For me it is my life. My business , my hobby, my friends.  

  If the Farting sound of a 4 stroke did not kill Moto, the lack of sound will not either.   

 

6
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early
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2/14/2024 12:48pm
early wrote:
Most new engine technology is being developed as generator range extenders for electric drivetrains. This involves optimized power and fuel efficiency at a narrow rpm range...

Most new engine technology is being developed as generator range extenders for electric drivetrains. This involves optimized power and fuel efficiency at a narrow rpm range.

Hydrogen doesn't make alot of sense for mobile applications, especially in combustion engines. Currently available hydrogen vehicles use fuel cells and electric drive trains.

In dirtbikes, we could see some wild hybrid drive trains; 50cc DI 2 stroke engines turning generators charging small hybrid lithium/supercapacitor batteries powering the electric motor finaldrive in sub 200 lb bikes.

GangGreen wrote:
Hydrogen, maybe? https://www.kawasaki-engines.eu/en/news/2023/10/18/head-of-engines-division-at-kawasaki-motors-europe-talks-potential-of-hydrogen-and-robotics-in-industry-overview/  

I'd be surprised if Hydrogen ICE is anything more than a carrot on a stick to keep hopes up. Gasoline has a energy density about 10x that of compressed hydrogen with similar engine efficiencies. Solid state Hydrogen storage and retrieval isn't very close to being a working reality either.

ATKpilot99
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2/14/2024 1:37pm

Castle Bravo

The last hydrogen powered test didn't go well .

2
2
2/14/2024 1:55pm

  Gas powered generator and Electric Hub motors instead of a  trans and chain and sprockets.  You would have the benefits of both gas and electric. Maybe run it off diesel at a set RPM for max range. Use a small battery or some capacitors  or both.  Set it up so the engine revs as You give it throttle so You still have the sound of a gas powered engine or set RPM for max range/power.   You would get rid of the chain and sprockets  and add front wheel drive. so 2 wheel drive.  Keeping the range and quick re fueling times, plus the adjustability of electric power. For enduro or longer range style machines. 

  

1
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early
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2/14/2024 2:14pm Edited Date/Time 2/14/2024 2:16pm
  Gas powered generator and Electric Hub motors instead of a  trans and chain and sprockets.  You would have the benefits of both gas and electric...

  Gas powered generator and Electric Hub motors instead of a  trans and chain and sprockets.  You would have the benefits of both gas and electric. Maybe run it off diesel at a set RPM for max range. Use a small battery or some capacitors  or both.  Set it up so the engine revs as You give it throttle so You still have the sound of a gas powered engine or set RPM for max range/power.   You would get rid of the chain and sprockets  and add front wheel drive. so 2 wheel drive.  Keeping the range and quick re fueling times, plus the adjustability of electric power. For enduro or longer range style machines. 

  

Hub motors are no good for performance applications, lots of unsprung weight and torque is not up to par.

Heres a 2 wheel drive electric motorcycle with built in generator made for hunting and fishing, next gen rokon.

Screenshot 20240214 171239 Chrome

https://snowdog.com/catalog/models/electric-motorbike/bulldog/

1
Falcon
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2/14/2024 2:45pm
ATKpilot99 wrote:
The last hydrogen powered test didn't go well .

Castle Bravo

The last hydrogen powered test didn't go well .

Laughing That's Hydrogen fusion, Bro!

3
2/14/2024 3:04pm
  Gas powered generator and Electric Hub motors instead of a  trans and chain and sprockets.  You would have the benefits of both gas and electric...

  Gas powered generator and Electric Hub motors instead of a  trans and chain and sprockets.  You would have the benefits of both gas and electric. Maybe run it off diesel at a set RPM for max range. Use a small battery or some capacitors  or both.  Set it up so the engine revs as You give it throttle so You still have the sound of a gas powered engine or set RPM for max range/power.   You would get rid of the chain and sprockets  and add front wheel drive. so 2 wheel drive.  Keeping the range and quick re fueling times, plus the adjustability of electric power. For enduro or longer range style machines. 

  

early wrote:
Hub motors are no good for performance applications, lots of unsprung weight and torque is not up to par. Heres a 2 wheel drive electric motorcycle...

Hub motors are no good for performance applications, lots of unsprung weight and torque is not up to par.

Heres a 2 wheel drive electric motorcycle with built in generator made for hunting and fishing, next gen rokon.

Screenshot 20240214 171239 Chrome

https://snowdog.com/catalog/models/electric-motorbike/bulldog/

As they get lighter and tech evolves . I know the unsprung weight is  a big disadvantage. I was thinking of them more for enduro or off road playbike applications.  More for the future  than now.  Not for MX or SX bike.  I think it would be great for bikes like the Honda XR/CRFX lines .   

 

And maybe just a hub motor for the front wheel on higher performance bikes. Having a little bit of power up front with a lighter , less powerful motor.  4WD vehicles often distribute the torque so the front only gets 30ish % of it.  I can think of a lot of times that a little bit of power to the front wheel would help. 

 

I wonder if electric Dirtbikes will ever go to shaft drive instead of chain and sprockets?  You shouldn't need to change up the gearing on an electric. 

dsoll703
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Fantasy
2/14/2024 3:47pm
Personally I think listening to 20+ electric whiney dirtbikes would sound like a55hole. Not to mention the voices of riders cussing each other out. Now add...

Personally I think listening to 20+ electric whiney dirtbikes would sound like a55hole. Not to mention the voices of riders cussing each other out. Now add 20+ bikes and chain slap, plastic resonating, tire noise....yuck.

Magoofan wrote:
Someone posted this video (below) in one of the never-ending e-threads. This is your electric future.     Watch (start at 49 sec) the gate drop and...

Someone posted this video (below) in one of the never-ending e-threads.

This is your electric future.     Watch (start at 49 sec) the gate drop and racing part of the video while imagining being in a stadium or at the nationals.  Good luck with that.  

The sport is dead when/if it comes to this.      

 

 

Thanks for posting that. It is strange, but I have a feeling when given the choice of riding electric vs not riding at all, people will begrudgingly start installing chargers at home.

I also think that it’s probably something people will get used to. The older generation will not care for it, but the younger generation will accept and continue on.

but, yeah, I’m a 2 stroke guy through and through.

2/14/2024 3:51pm
ATKpilot99 wrote:
The last hydrogen powered test didn't go well .

Castle Bravo

The last hydrogen powered test didn't go well .

A bigger bang than one of the earlier tests...

image-20240215105140-1

1
Village Idiot
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2/14/2024 4:34pm
Personally I think listening to 20+ electric whiney dirtbikes would sound like a55hole. Not to mention the voices of riders cussing each other out. Now add...

Personally I think listening to 20+ electric whiney dirtbikes would sound like a55hole. Not to mention the voices of riders cussing each other out. Now add 20+ bikes and chain slap, plastic resonating, tire noise....yuck.

Magoofan wrote:
Someone posted this video (below) in one of the never-ending e-threads. This is your electric future.     Watch (start at 49 sec) the gate drop and...

Someone posted this video (below) in one of the never-ending e-threads.

This is your electric future.     Watch (start at 49 sec) the gate drop and racing part of the video while imagining being in a stadium or at the nationals.  Good luck with that.  

The sport is dead when/if it comes to this.      

 

 

dsoll703 wrote:
Thanks for posting that. It is strange, but I have a feeling when given the choice of riding electric vs not riding at all, people will...

Thanks for posting that. It is strange, but I have a feeling when given the choice of riding electric vs not riding at all, people will begrudgingly start installing chargers at home.

I also think that it’s probably something people will get used to. The older generation will not care for it, but the younger generation will accept and continue on.

but, yeah, I’m a 2 stroke guy through and through.

Not that anyone cares, but I won't be one of them. 

Part of the enjoyment/experience for me is the sensations and interaction - sounds, smells, vibrations, clutching, shifting, etc.

To me, giving up my real bikes (especially my 125s) for electric would be like swapping out the wife for something inflatable... that has an air leak. It might technically achieve the same end result but the experiences wouldn't be remotely comparable.

I'll be taking a pass if that becomes my only option and spending my leisure time cleaning/restoring them for posterity's sake. Perhaps if they are here to admire, someone in the future would be motivated to restore sanity to the planet. Cool

4

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