Stark Orders and Payments

Beagle
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12/28/2023 6:02am Edited Date/Time 12/28/2023 7:23am
I ordered on day one. Estimated delivery date went from December 15th 23 to April 1st 2024.   I'm a Pennsylvania resident. $200 setup fees from...

I ordered on day one. Estimated delivery date went from December 15th 23 to April 1st 2024.

 

I'm a Pennsylvania resident.

$200 setup fees from a dealer in New York, I don't expect them to work for free, but Stark should pay setup. If the dealer is making money on the bike besides setup, it's an extra bike for them to profit from, so some slack on fees would be awesome. To compare, Pointview Cycle in Canfield Ohio never charged me setup on 3 new bikes I bought in the past 2 years, and even cut deals during the scamdemic.

I replied to the dealers emails 3 times telling them that the name and address on the invoice is incorrect. Apparently they don't pay attention to email responses. I'm not going to pay an invoice unless it has the correct information.

 

Not happy with Stark or the dealer. Honestly I'd rather use an Ohio dealer if possible. Preferably no dealer, but that's not an option. Is there a dealer list somewhere?

 

Am I misunderstanding something by chance?

Dave v3.0 wrote:
I don't see why anyone that was on the pre-order list should have to pay setup fees to a dealer.  That's Stark's problem to eat.  It...

I don't see why anyone that was on the pre-order list should have to pay setup fees to a dealer.  That's Stark's problem to eat.  It was Stark that didn't do their homework before accepting deposits and then waited 2 years before actually addressing the legalities of selling in the United States.  They can either pay the fee to have it (probably poorly) assembled at the dealer or the customer should be able to pick it up in the crate at the dealer's dock.  Seems simple enough and it's the price Stark should pay for all their sales snafus.

Sounds like a very American thing to me. Has anybody been asked to pay dealer fees getting their Varg in Europe?

Edit: for instance if you buy a 80 hp Varg from one of France major Stark dealers you pay 13 900 €, including VAT, and you can chose delivery at one of their dealership for no extra cost, or home delivery for an extra 300 €. So I guess it probably depends on your dealer, and the issue may be more frequent in some countries?

500 Mike
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12/28/2023 6:59am
Dave v3.0 wrote:
I don't see why anyone that was on the pre-order list should have to pay setup fees to a dealer.  That's Stark's problem to eat.  It...

I don't see why anyone that was on the pre-order list should have to pay setup fees to a dealer.  That's Stark's problem to eat.  It was Stark that didn't do their homework before accepting deposits and then waited 2 years before actually addressing the legalities of selling in the United States.  They can either pay the fee to have it (probably poorly) assembled at the dealer or the customer should be able to pick it up in the crate at the dealer's dock.  Seems simple enough and it's the price Stark should pay for all their sales snafus.

This is more evidence that leads me to believe they never thought they’d get this far.  The plan was to sell the company to someone else early on and let them worry about these details. 🤷🏼‍♂️

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ktmracer726
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Gagetown, MI, USA
12/28/2023 7:21am Edited Date/Time 12/28/2023 7:23am
I got an email that said mine was available. However, the AMA will not allow ebikes to race with gas bikes in Vet classes. I had...

I got an email that said mine was available. However, the AMA will not allow ebikes to race with gas bikes in Vet classes. I had to pass on it. I don't want a 13K practice bike. 

davis224 wrote:
Where did you hear that? Last I heard, our district director was on record saying it was OK, since people had already been racing Altas. Or...

Where did you hear that? Last I heard, our district director was on record saying it was OK, since people had already been racing Altas. Or are you talking LL's?

Mike Burkeen from the AMA called me. Ebikes are not allowed to race with gas bikes on the local or national level. A press release will be out soon. "A competitive advantage and not being able to hear an ebike on the track behind you" were the main reasons. Outlaw or non ama races are probably fine. I don't have many of those around me. 

 

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Electromoran
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Edinboro, PA, USA
12/28/2023 7:28am Edited Date/Time 12/28/2023 7:29am

Screenshot 20231228-102202 0The only reason I'm not canceling my order is that I have a home track and neighbors. Planned on making a pond (pond in picture is not mine, but might put one to the right of it to catch overflow)and plumbing the ground to water it. My Alta let me know how nice it is to ride whenever without bothering anyone. I normally ride while everyone else is at work since I work from home. Legally we can make noise until 9pm, but we try not to be dicks.If I lived in town I'd just cancel my order and live happily ever after with my GasGas 350, and KX500.
 

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The Shop

Dave v3.0
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Ozark, AL, USA
12/28/2023 9:22am
Beagle wrote:
Sounds like a very American thing to me. Has anybody been asked to pay dealer fees getting their Varg in Europe? Edit: for instance if you...

Sounds like a very American thing to me. Has anybody been asked to pay dealer fees getting their Varg in Europe?

Edit: for instance if you buy a 80 hp Varg from one of France major Stark dealers you pay 13 900 €, including VAT, and you can chose delivery at one of their dealership for no extra cost, or home delivery for an extra 300 €. So I guess it probably depends on your dealer, and the issue may be more frequent in some countries?

Why would it matter, regardless of location?

If I signed up in December 2021 and paid my $100 deposit for a bike to be delivered to my house in a crate at a stated price...that is all I should be expected to pay 2 (or so) years later.  That was my contract with Stark.  Plus applicable sales tax for that area. 

Now, since Stark dropped the ball, they want buyers to drive to a dealer (sometimes hours away) AND the dealer expects to be compensated for assembly of a bike they didn't sell but are only facilitating delivery.  No way the buyer should be expected to foot the bill for Stark's lack of research on logistics and governmental processes to distribute their products.

3
12/28/2023 9:39am

Imagine buying a $13K practice bike you can't bring to a real track...Laughing

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LungButter
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12/28/2023 9:50am
Rosso391 wrote:
Imagine buying a $13K practice bike you can't bring to a real track...

Imagine buying a $13K practice bike you can't bring to a real track...Laughing

Imagine thinking that only AMA races were "real tracks"....

Or better yet....

Imagine being so committed to an argument that you are willing to side with the AMA like they actually give a damn or make smart decisions concerning dirt bikes......

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JM485
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Davis, CA, USA
12/28/2023 9:55am
Mike Burkeen from the AMA called me. Ebikes are not allowed to race with gas bikes on the local or national level. A press release will...

Mike Burkeen from the AMA called me. Ebikes are not allowed to race with gas bikes on the local or national level. A press release will be out soon. "A competitive advantage and not being able to hear an ebike on the track behind you" were the main reasons. Outlaw or non ama races are probably fine. I don't have many of those around me. 

 

Well that’s interesting, it was expressed to me that the AMA would not be taking an official stance and would simply be continuing to evaluate in a case by case basis through supplemental rules, though we’re not likely to approve them for most forms of racing.  Evidently things have changed, which is discouraging.  

early
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University Heights, OH, USA
12/28/2023 10:01am

Imagine buying a $10,000 dirtbike you can't ride on your own property because the neighbors complain about the noise.

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djr
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GB
12/28/2023 10:52am
early wrote:

Imagine buying a $10,000 dirtbike you can't ride on your own property because the neighbors complain about the noise.

Just like the 13k ebike,  do some research BEFORE purchasing.

DON'T buy first, then complain about not being allowed

If you bought an ebike WITHOUT checking the rules where you intend racing, then it's down to you , same as buying an ICE bike without checking if noise is going to be an issue.

It's not hard

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12/28/2023 11:53am
Rosso391 wrote:
Imagine buying a $13K practice bike you can't bring to a real track...

Imagine buying a $13K practice bike you can't bring to a real track...Laughing

LungButter wrote:
Imagine thinking that only AMA races were "real tracks".... Or better yet.... Imagine being so committed to an argument that you are willing to side with...

Imagine thinking that only AMA races were "real tracks"....

Or better yet....

Imagine being so committed to an argument that you are willing to side with the AMA like they actually give a damn or make smart decisions concerning dirt bikes......

Imagine typing in YOUR username when signing up and thinking "my name is so cool"

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soggy
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12/28/2023 11:53am
early wrote:

Imagine buying a $10,000 dirtbike you can't ride on your own property because the neighbors complain about the noise.

djr wrote:
Just like the 13k ebike,  do some research BEFORE purchasing. DON'T buy first, then complain about not being allowed If you bought an ebike WITHOUT checking...

Just like the 13k ebike,  do some research BEFORE purchasing.

DON'T buy first, then complain about not being allowed

If you bought an ebike WITHOUT checking the rules where you intend racing, then it's down to you , same as buying an ICE bike without checking if noise is going to be an issue.

It's not hard

Easy bud this was just a response to the idiotic comment made above. 

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Beagle
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12/28/2023 11:56am Edited Date/Time 12/28/2023 11:59am
Beagle wrote:
Sounds like a very American thing to me. Has anybody been asked to pay dealer fees getting their Varg in Europe? Edit: for instance if you...

Sounds like a very American thing to me. Has anybody been asked to pay dealer fees getting their Varg in Europe?

Edit: for instance if you buy a 80 hp Varg from one of France major Stark dealers you pay 13 900 €, including VAT, and you can chose delivery at one of their dealership for no extra cost, or home delivery for an extra 300 €. So I guess it probably depends on your dealer, and the issue may be more frequent in some countries?

Dave v3.0 wrote:
Why would it matter, regardless of location? If I signed up in December 2021 and paid my $100 deposit for a bike to be delivered to...

Why would it matter, regardless of location?

If I signed up in December 2021 and paid my $100 deposit for a bike to be delivered to my house in a crate at a stated price...that is all I should be expected to pay 2 (or so) years later.  That was my contract with Stark.  Plus applicable sales tax for that area. 

Now, since Stark dropped the ball, they want buyers to drive to a dealer (sometimes hours away) AND the dealer expects to be compensated for assembly of a bike they didn't sell but are only facilitating delivery.  No way the buyer should be expected to foot the bill for Stark's lack of research on logistics and governmental processes to distribute their products.

My point is that it seems to be dealers doing that, not Stark.

That's why I'm asking if anybody, inside or outside of the US got their Varg at no extra cost. From what I've seen online, I can't recall people complaining about that in Europe.

12/28/2023 11:57am

But seriously. It does suck they wont allow them even to practice?? All they have to do for the time being is make a separate class for them. Electric A,B, & C.

Also, why wouldn't Stark think to talk to the AMA? Or make some type of agreement for classes or practice to make sure their product can actually be ridden on most of the tracks?

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3
12/28/2023 12:05pm
early wrote:

Imagine buying a $10,000 dirtbike you can't ride on your own property because the neighbors complain about the noise.

Imagine thinking a 140db dirtbike won't piss off your neighbors...even if they live over a mile down the road.

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2
early
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University Heights, OH, USA
12/28/2023 12:06pm
early wrote:

Imagine buying a $10,000 dirtbike you can't ride on your own property because the neighbors complain about the noise.

djr wrote:
Just like the 13k ebike,  do some research BEFORE purchasing. DON'T buy first, then complain about not being allowed If you bought an ebike WITHOUT checking...

Just like the 13k ebike,  do some research BEFORE purchasing.

DON'T buy first, then complain about not being allowed

If you bought an ebike WITHOUT checking the rules where you intend racing, then it's down to you , same as buying an ICE bike without checking if noise is going to be an issue.

It's not hard

If ypubare riding on your property there is a question of legality and a question of courtesy. Electromoran has had his track there for a while and has been riding ICE bikes on it and like he said it's legal to make noise until 9, but you uave yo live next to your neighbors and how much riding they will tolerate vs how much riding you want to do may not jive. Riding a couple weekends a month may be fine, but if you want to spin laps from 6-7pm everyday after work from May to October the neighbors are likely to get annoyed.

As far as ama rules, that's something that should have been worked out when the Alta came out and it was clear that full size electric dirtbikes were feasible for amateur motos.

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zehn
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Anchorage, AK, USA
12/28/2023 12:10pm

Citing a competitive advantage as a justification for not permitting them to race (which hasn’t been confirmed, several times in this and other threads it has been said that a “press release is coming soon”) is pretty fucking rich 

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1
JM485
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12/28/2023 12:11pm
Rosso391 wrote:
But seriously. It does suck they wont allow them even to practice?? All they have to do for the time being is make a separate class...

But seriously. It does suck they wont allow them even to practice?? All they have to do for the time being is make a separate class for them. Electric A,B, & C.

Also, why wouldn't Stark think to talk to the AMA? Or make some type of agreement for classes or practice to make sure their product can actually be ridden on most of the tracks?

Where are you getting that they aren’t allowed at practice days?  Nobody has said that and nobody but individual track owners have the right to decide that, so far I’ve run into no issues and I don’t anticipate that being a problem.  

early
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University Heights, OH, USA
12/28/2023 12:14pm
early wrote:

Imagine buying a $10,000 dirtbike you can't ride on your own property because the neighbors complain about the noise.

Rosso391 wrote:

Imagine thinking a 140db dirtbike won't piss off your neighbors...even if they live over a mile down the road.

That's the difference between the electric/ICE debate vs the 2t/4t debate. Electric bikes offer a tangible advantage for some people beyond just marginally easier ridability by being very quiet.

LungButter
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12/28/2023 12:16pm
early wrote:
If ypubare riding on your property there is a question of legality and a question of courtesy. Electromoran has had his track there for a while...

If ypubare riding on your property there is a question of legality and a question of courtesy. Electromoran has had his track there for a while and has been riding ICE bikes on it and like he said it's legal to make noise until 9, but you uave yo live next to your neighbors and how much riding they will tolerate vs how much riding you want to do may not jive. Riding a couple weekends a month may be fine, but if you want to spin laps from 6-7pm everyday after work from May to October the neighbors are likely to get annoyed.

As far as ama rules, that's something that should have been worked out when the Alta came out and it was clear that full size electric dirtbikes were feasible for amateur motos.

It was worked out when the Alta came out.  They let you race them in open displacement classes.

It's only since the Stark came out and scared the shit out of the other manufacturers with how good it appears to be that the AMA has decided to change their mind.

If you want to see how pathetic the AMA is in this rule making process look no further than the fact an Alta was raced to a podium finish in Endurocross years ago but now the AMA is saying that the won't allow electric bikes in Endurocross going forward due to.....well, we're not sure what it's due to other than their complete incompetence.

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hawk101
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12/28/2023 12:20pm

I'm willing to bet the AMA is owned by the Japs and KTM just like with professional SX and MX. Thus the push to ban them in AMA racing.

Australia just approved electric bikes for all racing and against gas bikes using race approved maps. Apparently racing is run by the clubs in Australia instead of the manufacturers. Seems like a better environment for riders.

I really hope I can race my Stark in 2024, but I guess I should keep my 350 just in case. I mostly practice now, but still annoying.

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Dave v3.0
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Ozark, AL, USA
12/28/2023 1:29pm
Beagle wrote:
Sounds like a very American thing to me. Has anybody been asked to pay dealer fees getting their Varg in Europe? Edit: for instance if you...

Sounds like a very American thing to me. Has anybody been asked to pay dealer fees getting their Varg in Europe?

Edit: for instance if you buy a 80 hp Varg from one of France major Stark dealers you pay 13 900 €, including VAT, and you can chose delivery at one of their dealership for no extra cost, or home delivery for an extra 300 €. So I guess it probably depends on your dealer, and the issue may be more frequent in some countries?

Dave v3.0 wrote:
Why would it matter, regardless of location? If I signed up in December 2021 and paid my $100 deposit for a bike to be delivered to...

Why would it matter, regardless of location?

If I signed up in December 2021 and paid my $100 deposit for a bike to be delivered to my house in a crate at a stated price...that is all I should be expected to pay 2 (or so) years later.  That was my contract with Stark.  Plus applicable sales tax for that area. 

Now, since Stark dropped the ball, they want buyers to drive to a dealer (sometimes hours away) AND the dealer expects to be compensated for assembly of a bike they didn't sell but are only facilitating delivery.  No way the buyer should be expected to foot the bill for Stark's lack of research on logistics and governmental processes to distribute their products.

Beagle wrote:
My point is that it seems to be dealers doing that, not Stark. That's why I'm asking if anybody, inside or outside of the US got...

My point is that it seems to be dealers doing that, not Stark.

That's why I'm asking if anybody, inside or outside of the US got their Varg at no extra cost. From what I've seen online, I can't recall people complaining about that in Europe.

Of course it's the dealers charging.  Why wouldn't they? 

They don't make any profit on the sale of a bike you bought from Stark FOR home delivery but had to have delivered to their location because Stark screwed the pooch on regulations.  They then have to put it together for some obtuse insurance reason thus incurring a cost to the dealer.  Do you think the dealer has some sort of indentured servant who works for free that puts together bikes in the back?Cool. Nope, they have to pay a salary, benefits, and workers compensation for that employee.  And someone has to pay for that.  It shouldn't be the buyer who initially ordered a motorcycle and $99 delivery to their home.

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12/28/2023 1:33pm
Rosso391 wrote:
But seriously. It does suck they wont allow them even to practice?? All they have to do for the time being is make a separate class...

But seriously. It does suck they wont allow them even to practice?? All they have to do for the time being is make a separate class for them. Electric A,B, & C.

Also, why wouldn't Stark think to talk to the AMA? Or make some type of agreement for classes or practice to make sure their product can actually be ridden on most of the tracks?

JM485 wrote:
Where are you getting that they aren’t allowed at practice days?  Nobody has said that and nobody but individual track owners have the right to decide...

Where are you getting that they aren’t allowed at practice days?  Nobody has said that and nobody but individual track owners have the right to decide that, so far I’ve run into no issues and I don’t anticipate that being a problem.  

^^read above^^ AMA sanctioned races, which is everything except fair races. AMA not allowing them to race obviously doesn't let you enter the bike at that track. Maybe you can get away with Saturday practice? Maybe the track owners wont care. But Sunday you aren't riding it at all.

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Micahdogg
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12/28/2023 1:35pm
zehn wrote:
Citing a competitive advantage as a justification for not permitting them to race (which hasn’t been confirmed, several times in this and other threads it has...

Citing a competitive advantage as a justification for not permitting them to race (which hasn’t been confirmed, several times in this and other threads it has been said that a “press release is coming soon”) is pretty fucking rich 

Yeah the 2001 125 class would like to file a class action.

 

5
LungButter
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12/28/2023 1:38pm
Rosso391 wrote:
^^read above^^ AMA sanctioned races, which is everything except fair races. AMA not allowing them to race obviously doesn't let you enter the bike at that...

^^read above^^ AMA sanctioned races, which is everything except fair races. AMA not allowing them to race obviously doesn't let you enter the bike at that track. Maybe you can get away with Saturday practice? Maybe the track owners wont care. But Sunday you aren't riding it at all.

You need to get out of Minnesota more bud.  There is a lot of MX racing out there that is non-AMA sanctioned.  

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TahoeVetMX
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12/28/2023 1:38pm

Just an update with my Stark.   After the meltdown of the wiring the company came up with a plan and communicated with a local dealer here in Socal.  They sent new wiring and parts to let the shop repair the bike.   It is done and I am hoping it does not happen again.  So, as of now the service has been good!  

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zookrider62!
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Plano, TX, USA
12/28/2023 1:39pm
Rosso391 wrote:
But seriously. It does suck they wont allow them even to practice?? All they have to do for the time being is make a separate class...

But seriously. It does suck they wont allow them even to practice?? All they have to do for the time being is make a separate class for them. Electric A,B, & C.

Also, why wouldn't Stark think to talk to the AMA? Or make some type of agreement for classes or practice to make sure their product can actually be ridden on most of the tracks?

JM485 wrote:
Where are you getting that they aren’t allowed at practice days?  Nobody has said that and nobody but individual track owners have the right to decide...

Where are you getting that they aren’t allowed at practice days?  Nobody has said that and nobody but individual track owners have the right to decide that, so far I’ve run into no issues and I don’t anticipate that being a problem.  

Rosso391 wrote:
^^read above^^ AMA sanctioned races, which is everything except fair races. AMA not allowing them to race obviously doesn't let you enter the bike at that...

^^read above^^ AMA sanctioned races, which is everything except fair races. AMA not allowing them to race obviously doesn't let you enter the bike at that track. Maybe you can get away with Saturday practice? Maybe the track owners wont care. But Sunday you aren't riding it at all.

maybe I'm out of touch, but I believe the vast majority of Texas races are not AMA-sanctioned.

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KurtJ99
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USA
12/28/2023 2:02pm
Mike Burkeen from the AMA called me. Ebikes are not allowed to race with gas bikes on the local or national level. A press release will...

Mike Burkeen from the AMA called me. Ebikes are not allowed to race with gas bikes on the local or national level. A press release will be out soon. "A competitive advantage and not being able to hear an ebike on the track behind you" were the main reasons. Outlaw or non ama races are probably fine. I don't have many of those around me. 

 

Wow that is unexpected. I can't understand why at least Vet classes are not allowed.

The safety issue about noise feels a little ridiculous, and one that can be easily overcome with a noise-maker like hybrid and electric cars have today.  Seems very unreasonable, perhaps when the bulletin comes out it will be more clear. 

- If you have a quiet 4T and your competition is louder, is your bike "unsafe" because they can't hear you? Do we then need noise "minimum" not just maximum?  Stupid but seems to be inferred. 

- If you coast to the inside of a turn, are you safety hazard because the guy on the outside can't hear you?

I am all for having reasonable - but not unreasonable - accommodation of ebikes. For me as a Vet it means only local racing; Hangtown Amateur day and Mammoth are out. And that means no ebike since I don't want to switch back and forth from ICE to ebike. 

 

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12/28/2023 2:04pm
Rosso391 wrote:
^^read above^^ AMA sanctioned races, which is everything except fair races. AMA not allowing them to race obviously doesn't let you enter the bike at that...

^^read above^^ AMA sanctioned races, which is everything except fair races. AMA not allowing them to race obviously doesn't let you enter the bike at that track. Maybe you can get away with Saturday practice? Maybe the track owners wont care. But Sunday you aren't riding it at all.

LungButter wrote:

You need to get out of Minnesota more bud.  There is a lot of MX racing out there that is non-AMA sanctioned.  

I was going to say. We really don't. There's more well-maintained private tracks than there are District 23 tracks here. But no racing on them.

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Dave v3.0
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Ozark, AL, USA
12/28/2023 2:09pm
KurtJ99 wrote:
Wow that is unexpected. I can't understand why at least Vet classes are not allowed. The safety issue about noise feels a little ridiculous, and one...

Wow that is unexpected. I can't understand why at least Vet classes are not allowed.

The safety issue about noise feels a little ridiculous, and one that can be easily overcome with a noise-maker like hybrid and electric cars have today.  Seems very unreasonable, perhaps when the bulletin comes out it will be more clear. 

- If you have a quiet 4T and your competition is louder, is your bike "unsafe" because they can't hear you? Do we then need noise "minimum" not just maximum?  Stupid but seems to be inferred. 

- If you coast to the inside of a turn, are you safety hazard because the guy on the outside can't hear you?

I am all for having reasonable - but not unreasonable - accommodation of ebikes. For me as a Vet it means only local racing; Hangtown Amateur day and Mammoth are out. And that means no ebike since I don't want to switch back and forth from ICE to ebike. 

 

What can you expect from an organization that has a major influencer on their Board that supports "loud pipes save lives".  The Harley contingent is alive and well at the AMA and still hasn't come to terms with "furrin" motorcycles.Wink

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