Stark Orders and Payments

djr
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10/5/2023 3:49am
wfopete wrote:

Just the bare rolling chassis of the Varg is on another level compared to what is offered by other OEMs.  

djr wrote:

Please explain, I can't see anything "on another level" , unless you mean the- easy-puncture lightweight inner tubes

momus is that you?

No, who is Momus ?

Smile

Beagle
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10/5/2023 5:26am
scott_nz wrote:
Mugan HOnda made a road race bike that averaged 121mph around the isle of mann  (total time 18min 35 sec ), similar to a 650cc twins...

Mugan HOnda made a road race bike that averaged 121mph around the isle of mann  (total time 18min 35 sec ), similar to a 650cc twins that are rumoured to be around 100hp,  id be interested to see what a motard spec Stark would do around there, 

 

the TT zero was only ever one lap, where most bikes do 2 laps before a refuel there, 

 

Was the Mugen a development of Honda's RC-E concept?

The RC-E was a beautiful concept bike but again, no specs were released and I've never seen any vid of the bike running.

The Mugen Shinden was a proper prototype, racing TT zero during the Tourist Trophy, from 2012 to 2019 (when the electric race was shut down). In those 8 years it won the event from 2014 to 2019. TT zero was one lap of the 37.7 mi / 60.72 km mountain course. Mugen's last iteration, the Mugen Shinden Hachi, had 160 hp on tap for 248 kg. In 8 years their average speed around the road course went from 102 mph to 121 mph, that is a laptime decreasing from 22'08" to 18'34".

The TT zero was cancelled due to limited field of entries, around 10 bikes, with very uneven performances. Since the unfortunate illness and passing of the motorcycle genius Michael Czysz, Mugen was essentially competing with itself. Which incidentally is why the MotoE is currently a spec-series (racing Ducatis). Until the industry catches up with various competitive brands, open competition does not make sense nor great racing.

djr
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10/5/2023 5:26am
I have had 108mph uphill on rough forest track my gps and the Varg was still accelerating but I had to slow for a corner as...

I have had 108mph uphill on rough forest track my gps and the Varg was still accelerating but I had to slow for a corner as it’s my driveway 🤪🤣

So , could you tell us what the battery range is when you are doing 108mph uphill ?

And does doing 108mph uphill cause any overheating ?

Just curious, as it has been mentioned in at least one of the tests mentioned here that the Stark was overheating on one of the tests on an MX track with a fast rider 

(where I don't think they were doing 108mph ?)

 

Beagle
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10/5/2023 11:29am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2023 11:30am

The 3rd one is a great shot

 

 

4

The Shop

SonofThor32
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10/6/2023 7:21am
I think what I don't get here, knowing traditional OEMs are building electric bikes right behind Stark, why is everyone here acting like Stark is the...

I think what I don't get here, knowing traditional OEMs are building electric bikes right behind Stark, why is everyone here acting like Stark is the only one and the holy grail?  Do folks not think Honda or KTM are not going to be taking notes for what Stark has done and improving on it for what they have in the works?  That is all going to happen sooner than later.  I just don't get dropping $12K+ not knowing what parts (availability) and service is actually going to be like, what the long-term plans are for the company and how truly viable they will be as a company (ask Alta owners).

Maybe just 'being first' means more than anything to some people (including money).  I am as intrigued as the next guy, but I will wait for something from an OEM I know I can trust, and knowing I won't ever have to worry about service and parts long-term, and I won't have a 12K paper weight sitting in my garage that was cool for a spell. 

1
AH387
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10/6/2023 8:08am

To be fair, it looks exactly like the prototype that I referenced in my comment.  Going strictly off of looks and construction,  it looks like an electric power train shoe-horned into a chassis that was built for a gas engine. To me, the Stark looks much more purpose built. Maybe riding them back to back, the Honda performance could be better. But just on the surface, it appears Stark's ground-up approach is more forward thinking than what Honda is showing here. 

I am happy to see the traditional OEMs take a shot an electric bike. But I just think that Stark appears to be a homerun and is going to force the traditional OEM's to really make a great product. And that's a good thing. 

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8tensolutions
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10/6/2023 8:14am
Since a few folks kind nudged me as an idiot for this comment  LOL Honda CR ELECTRIC PROTO in All Japan Motocross Championship 2023 Round 8...
AH387 wrote:
To be fair, it looks exactly like the prototype that I referenced in my comment.  Going strictly off of looks and construction,  it looks like an...

To be fair, it looks exactly like the prototype that I referenced in my comment.  Going strictly off of looks and construction,  it looks like an electric power train shoe-horned into a chassis that was built for a gas engine. To me, the Stark looks much more purpose built. Maybe riding them back to back, the Honda performance could be better. But just on the surface, it appears Stark's ground-up approach is more forward thinking than what Honda is showing here. 

I am happy to see the traditional OEMs take a shot an electric bike. But I just think that Stark appears to be a homerun and is going to force the traditional OEM's to really make a great product. And that's a good thing. 

I agree to a point, but you cannot argue that Honda's engineering has always been amazing.  They have been at the forefront since the 70's.  Stark is brand new.  Not saying they cannot and don't build an amazing bike....but unproven they will exist in 24 months.  That's the only downside to buying a Stark from my side.  If they don't make it, resale may as well be zero and parts will be non-existent.

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AH387
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10/6/2023 8:44am
I agree to a point, but you cannot argue that Honda's engineering has always been amazing.  They have been at the forefront since the 70's.  Stark...

I agree to a point, but you cannot argue that Honda's engineering has always been amazing.  They have been at the forefront since the 70's.  Stark is brand new.  Not saying they cannot and don't build an amazing bike....but unproven they will exist in 24 months.  That's the only downside to buying a Stark from my side.  If they don't make it, resale may as well be zero and parts will be non-existent.

Whether Stark sticks around is absolutely something that a buyer has to consider. I totally get that. But I'm more talking about the bike itself. I just am not going to assume that because Honda has the name that they have, it means their electric mx bikes are going to be a better product. They are also invested in selling gas bikes and probably can only invest so much into each project. Stark had 1 vision and made a ground-up bike that appears to have delivered what they promised. It's purpose built. Every review they seem blown away by the performance,  also having talked to ppl that have ridden one, the consensus is that the bike is a hit. Not saying the Honda cannot be as good. I'm just saying it's unfair to assume they will instantly produce a superior product.  And looking at their vision by these bikes we have seen, I am no more convinced. But if the Honda comes out and is a better preforming bike then so be it. Had Stark never existed it would be easier for Honda to pass off a bike derived from the existing CRF chassis. But with Stark out, it may force their hand a bit.

2
10/6/2023 5:35pm
Since a few folks kind nudged me as an idiot for this comment  LOL Honda CR ELECTRIC PROTO in All Japan Motocross Championship 2023 Round 8...
AH387 wrote:
To be fair, it looks exactly like the prototype that I referenced in my comment.  Going strictly off of looks and construction,  it looks like an...

To be fair, it looks exactly like the prototype that I referenced in my comment.  Going strictly off of looks and construction,  it looks like an electric power train shoe-horned into a chassis that was built for a gas engine. To me, the Stark looks much more purpose built. Maybe riding them back to back, the Honda performance could be better. But just on the surface, it appears Stark's ground-up approach is more forward thinking than what Honda is showing here. 

I am happy to see the traditional OEMs take a shot an electric bike. But I just think that Stark appears to be a homerun and is going to force the traditional OEM's to really make a great product. And that's a good thing. 

The chassis, battery pack, motor and inverter packaging look different from the original patent and original prototype...

image-20231007113345-1

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djr
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10/7/2023 2:36am
The chassis, battery pack, motor and inverter packaging look different from the original patent and original prototype...

The chassis, battery pack, motor and inverter packaging look different from the original patent and original prototype...

image-20231007113345-1

Honda also has research/knowledge from electric cars, Street bikes etc. which it can apply to a dirt bike if required.

Yamaha are also involved in some electric car projects for car manufacturers as well as their own motorcycle projects.

I wouldn't underestimate any of the big 4 OEMs , just because they haven't released an electric MX bike yet, doesn't mean they cannot make a good product if they find there is an actual demand for them

2
10/7/2023 4:55am
The chassis, battery pack, motor and inverter packaging look different from the original patent and original prototype...

The chassis, battery pack, motor and inverter packaging look different from the original patent and original prototype...

image-20231007113345-1

djr wrote:
Honda also has research/knowledge from electric cars, Street bikes etc. which it can apply to a dirt bike if required. Yamaha are also involved in some...

Honda also has research/knowledge from electric cars, Street bikes etc. which it can apply to a dirt bike if required.

Yamaha are also involved in some electric car projects for car manufacturers as well as their own motorcycle projects.

I wouldn't underestimate any of the big 4 OEMs , just because they haven't released an electric MX bike yet, doesn't mean they cannot make a good product if they find there is an actual demand for them

Stark's 18,000 preorders show there is demand, but not if the demand is sustainable.

Honda has experience with battery packs used in F1 and scooters.

Honda's CR electric is likely to be equivalent or better than the Alta, it will take time to develop a prototype comparable to the Stark Varg, Honda's Kumamoto plant is setup to manufacture and assembly of ICE, it will take time to setup battery manufacturing and assemble lines.

I'd guess at least 3 years before Honda has something to market, more likely 4-6 years to have something competitive with the Varg, but I could be wrong.

4
crt32
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10/7/2023 6:25am
Stark's 18,000 preorders show there is demand, but not if the demand is sustainable. Honda has experience with battery packs used in F1 and scooters. Honda's...

Stark's 18,000 preorders show there is demand, but not if the demand is sustainable.

Honda has experience with battery packs used in F1 and scooters.

Honda's CR electric is likely to be equivalent or better than the Alta, it will take time to develop a prototype comparable to the Stark Varg, Honda's Kumamoto plant is setup to manufacture and assembly of ICE, it will take time to setup battery manufacturing and assemble lines.

I'd guess at least 3 years before Honda has something to market, more likely 4-6 years to have something competitive with the Varg, but I could be wrong.

18,000 preorders shows nothing. $100 "deposit" is not a preorder. How many has Stark actually sold and received full payment? 

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SonofThor32
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10/7/2023 6:34am Edited Date/Time 10/12/2023 4:44am
Since a few folks kind nudged me as an idiot for this comment  LOL Honda CR ELECTRIC PROTO in All Japan Motocross Championship 2023 Round 8...
AH387 wrote:
To be fair, it looks exactly like the prototype that I referenced in my comment.  Going strictly off of looks and construction,  it looks like an...

To be fair, it looks exactly like the prototype that I referenced in my comment.  Going strictly off of looks and construction,  it looks like an electric power train shoe-horned into a chassis that was built for a gas engine. To me, the Stark looks much more purpose built. Maybe riding them back to back, the Honda performance could be better. But just on the surface, it appears Stark's ground-up approach is more forward thinking than what Honda is showing here. 

I am happy to see the traditional OEMs take a shot an electric bike. But I just think that Stark appears to be a homerun and is going to force the traditional OEM's to really make a great product. And that's a good thing. 

I think my bigger point, the OEMs are doing things that us, and our Vital friends have no clue about with this stuff.  Honda kind of proved my point with this prototype they are racing above.  Suzuki as a company basically has committed to the electric pivot which I still believe is why their bikes are stagnant for the moment, and that was about a year ago.  I have no doubt Kawasaki and Yamaha are not just sitting and watching either.  The only brand that has said they are not going this direction, is KTM, and I doubt that was 100% sincere.

If I was heavily considering buying an e-bike, I would just be waiting for one from a manufacturer I know I can trust, I don't think the wait is going to be very long.

2
davis224
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10/7/2023 8:09am
Stark's 18,000 preorders show there is demand, but not if the demand is sustainable. Honda has experience with battery packs used in F1 and scooters. Honda's...

Stark's 18,000 preorders show there is demand, but not if the demand is sustainable.

Honda has experience with battery packs used in F1 and scooters.

Honda's CR electric is likely to be equivalent or better than the Alta, it will take time to develop a prototype comparable to the Stark Varg, Honda's Kumamoto plant is setup to manufacture and assembly of ICE, it will take time to setup battery manufacturing and assemble lines.

I'd guess at least 3 years before Honda has something to market, more likely 4-6 years to have something competitive with the Varg, but I could be wrong.

crt32 wrote:

18,000 preorders shows nothing. $100 "deposit" is not a preorder. How many has Stark actually sold and received full payment? 

It shows 18,000 people want it enough to potentially light a $100 bill on fire. I'd say that shows there is a market.

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AgileMike
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10/7/2023 8:45am

I was the fourth post in this thread.  I thought I'd share my timeline:

Order Placed - 16 December 2021

Paid - 16 August 2023 (Stark didn't request payment; I just paid because estimated delivery was September 30th)

Shipment Confirmation Email - 3 October 2023

Delivery Phone Call - 5 October 2023; delivery confirms bike is in Houston, TX. Expects 1 to 1.5 weeks for delivery to Idaho.

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JK BRO
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10/7/2023 9:24am
davis224 wrote:

It shows 18,000 people want it enough to potentially light a $100 bill on fire. I'd say that shows there is a market.

If you think 1.8 million dollars in pre-order reservations is sustainable for a motorcycle manufacturer then you should go back to middle school and take basic economics. Lets just say all 18,000 buyers commit, you still only have a revenue of 216 million.

For reference KTM alone is pulling 1.3 billion in annual sales.

 

Some other financial info:

Honda net worth 53 Billion

Stefan Pierer owner of the Pierer Group is worth 1.3b alone.... More than the entire stark group + CEO + employee worth.

Yamaha 8 Billion

Suzuki 18 Billion

 

The fact that people think that stark is ahead of OEM's is hilarious. OEM's have money to invest in future technologies, not just old "lithium ion" while stark still securing funding on tech that was invented in the 1970s.

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shuggs
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10/7/2023 9:56am
JK BRO wrote:
If you think 1.8 million dollars in pre-order reservations is sustainable for a motorcycle manufacturer then you should go back to middle school and take basic...

If you think 1.8 million dollars in pre-order reservations is sustainable for a motorcycle manufacturer then you should go back to middle school and take basic economics. Lets just say all 18,000 buyers commit, you still only have a revenue of 216 million.

For reference KTM alone is pulling 1.3 billion in annual sales.

 

Some other financial info:

Honda net worth 53 Billion

Stefan Pierer owner of the Pierer Group is worth 1.3b alone.... More than the entire stark group + CEO + employee worth.

Yamaha 8 Billion

Suzuki 18 Billion

 

The fact that people think that stark is ahead of OEM's is hilarious. OEM's have money to invest in future technologies, not just old "lithium ion" while stark still securing funding on tech that was invented in the 1970s.

To me it seems OEM’s are going at things the reverse of Stark by building kids e50’s first, I would be very surprised if Stark have plans to make other sizes of e-bike - why?  The size of current battery needed in the Varg.  

davis224
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10/7/2023 1:58pm
davis224 wrote:

It shows 18,000 people want it enough to potentially light a $100 bill on fire. I'd say that shows there is a market.

JK BRO wrote:
If you think 1.8 million dollars in pre-order reservations is sustainable for a motorcycle manufacturer then you should go back to middle school and take basic...

If you think 1.8 million dollars in pre-order reservations is sustainable for a motorcycle manufacturer then you should go back to middle school and take basic economics. Lets just say all 18,000 buyers commit, you still only have a revenue of 216 million.

For reference KTM alone is pulling 1.3 billion in annual sales.

 

Some other financial info:

Honda net worth 53 Billion

Stefan Pierer owner of the Pierer Group is worth 1.3b alone.... More than the entire stark group + CEO + employee worth.

Yamaha 8 Billion

Suzuki 18 Billion

 

The fact that people think that stark is ahead of OEM's is hilarious. OEM's have money to invest in future technologies, not just old "lithium ion" while stark still securing funding on tech that was invented in the 1970s.

Cool. What does that have to do with there being a demand for E bikes?

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1
10/8/2023 1:52am

who says there actually is 18,000 deposits? 

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LungButter
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10/8/2023 9:06am
JK BRO wrote:
If you think 1.8 million dollars in pre-order reservations is sustainable for a motorcycle manufacturer then you should go back to middle school and take basic...

If you think 1.8 million dollars in pre-order reservations is sustainable for a motorcycle manufacturer then you should go back to middle school and take basic economics. Lets just say all 18,000 buyers commit, you still only have a revenue of 216 million.

For reference KTM alone is pulling 1.3 billion in annual sales.

 

Some other financial info:

Honda net worth 53 Billion

Stefan Pierer owner of the Pierer Group is worth 1.3b alone.... More than the entire stark group + CEO + employee worth.

Yamaha 8 Billion

Suzuki 18 Billion

 

The fact that people think that stark is ahead of OEM's is hilarious. OEM's have money to invest in future technologies, not just old "lithium ion" while stark still securing funding on tech that was invented in the 1970s.

Wait a minute….we went through like 5-8 pages of this thread being told the pre-order $$ and the few paid in full deposits were keeping the lights on for Stark and that they are basically a Ponzi scheme!

Now….you’re telling me that’s not even that much money in the grand scheme of things!?

 

🤯

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davis224
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10/8/2023 9:19am

My local shop ordered 80 of them, so I think they plan on selling a lot

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seth505
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10/8/2023 9:36am

Patiently waiting for the video of dude going 108mph, uphill, still pulling. I love the internet!!

10
Broseph
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10/8/2023 10:00am
seth505 wrote:
Patiently waiting for the video of dude going 108mph, uphill, still pulling. I love the internet!!

Patiently waiting for the video of dude going 108mph, uphill, still pulling. I love the internet!!

I’ve done 104 on a forest road on a bike with 60hp. An 80hp Stark shouldn’t have much trouble beating that.

Now the comment about it being rough and uphill? That might be an exaggeration. 

3
djr
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10/8/2023 10:27am

who says there actually is 18,000 deposits? 

Exactly,   if that figure is as accurate as the delivery dates they give out  , who knows ?

If there is no independent way of checking that figure , then I would have my doubts

 

1
10/8/2023 12:35pm

who says there actually is 18,000 deposits? 

djr wrote:
Exactly,   if that figure is as accurate as the delivery dates they give out  , who knows ? If there is no independent way of checking...

Exactly,   if that figure is as accurate as the delivery dates they give out  , who knows ?

If there is no independent way of checking that figure , then I would have my doubts

 

The 50 Mill and 20 Mill euros' investment/loans show me that Stark has enough proof of demand and or a solid biz plan, for people who have seen all the documents to put up some big chunks of money.

 

  Hopefully the OP gets his Varg soon and posts about it.

  

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wfopete
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10/10/2023 7:35am
wfopete wrote:

Just the bare rolling chassis of the Varg is on another level compared to what is offered by other OEMs.  

djr wrote:

Please explain, I can't see anything "on another level" , unless you mean the- easy-puncture lightweight inner tubes

I'm talking the quality of the fit/finish/detail, forward thinking (example: chain adjustment), getting the chassis so right on the first effort and general superior engineering of the bike.  Makes the japs rides look like the company is asleep at the wheel. 

Can't blame them, MX bikes are such a low % of profit, they have better things to do with their resources. 

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crt32
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10/10/2023 10:22am
-MAVERICK- wrote:

two strokes made that video cool...

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2
early
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10/10/2023 10:31am
-MAVERICK- wrote:
crt32 wrote:
two strokes made that video cool...

two strokes made that video cool...

You guys never miss a chance to cry on the internet.

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