Why no neck braces?

64smoker
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8/23/2023 2:11pm
Falcon wrote:
I have to try one of the new ones. I did wear a 1st-gen Leatt, and couldn't ride in it. Literally, COULD NOT ride in it...

I have to try one of the new ones. I did wear a 1st-gen Leatt, and couldn't ride in it. Literally, COULD NOT ride in it. Well, I guess I could have drag raced in it, but I couldn't turn my head enough to corner the bike.

I was the same but that was probably 12 ish years back , they look a lot slimmer now I’d be keen to try one and see 

Juck
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8/23/2023 6:42pm
I believe it was two years ago I was watching the GP of Great Britain and Tim Gajser went down on the uphill triple and his...

I believe it was two years ago I was watching the GP of Great Britain and Tim Gajser went down on the uphill triple and his neck brace broke in two pieces leaving basically a plastic rim rotating around his neck for the remainder of the race. That seemed more dangerous to me than not wearing a neck brace at all. Since then I have not worn my neck brace and feel a lot more free on the bike. Even with the low profile of the Atlas brace I could not bend my neck up all the way when standing in the attack position. The back of my helmet would hit the rear of the brace and limit my vision. I still have my Atlas brace in my gear bag, but I don't use it. I believe in the same mantra as Ryan Hughes in that if you are showing up to the track with the fear of crashing and getting hurt then you shouldn't be riding in the first place. That's not a good mentality to have. 

Juck wrote:

It didn't break it just came undone

The vertebrae brace completely breaks off. Watch the clip...

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LodSKgegbKI&ab_channel=mxgptv 

Huh, never noticed that

Chris_Buehler
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8/23/2023 7:10pm

A guy I'm friendly with got a concussion a month ago. He showed up today with an Atlas brace. He rode about 2 laps and came in and said I can't ride with this thing and threw it in his trailer. LoL they don't bother me. I thought of asking if he wanted to sell it

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ando
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8/23/2023 7:16pm
truck wrote:
Show me the data?   Quite difficult actually and that kind data is basically junk. Retrospective, relies on self reporting and prone to every kind of...

Show me the data?

 

Quite difficult actually and that kind data is basically junk. Retrospective, relies on self reporting and prone to every kind of bias. So many variables at play that even if you had a perfect record of injuries and whether or not they involved a brace you still wouldn't be able to answer the question without being able to control for many other things. And you don't have anywhere near a perfect record of injuries to begin with and there's no way to get it. I've published research and been involved with plenty of medical studies and you're just going to have to take my word on this not being something where you're ever going to be able to get good data. 

 

I can agree that there's no good data saying they work. Can you agree there's also no good data to say they don't work or cause harm? Anecdote =/= data. 

I’ve used less than perfect data many times to make business decisions.  It doesn’t have to be clean, sanitised and 100% perfect.  We’re not talking about publishing a scientific paper.

By your standard of proof helmets and boots offer dubious safety benefits as well.  There’s no good data to support their perceived benefits.

I agree there isn’t a good body of data right now.  If I was to tackle this though I’d start with AMA supercross and motocross riders from the last 20 years as a sample.  Their injury history is fairly well documented, especially serious permanent disability injuries that neck braces are designed to prevent.

 

1

The Shop

truck
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8/24/2023 12:06am
truck wrote:
Show me the data?   Quite difficult actually and that kind data is basically junk. Retrospective, relies on self reporting and prone to every kind of...

Show me the data?

 

Quite difficult actually and that kind data is basically junk. Retrospective, relies on self reporting and prone to every kind of bias. So many variables at play that even if you had a perfect record of injuries and whether or not they involved a brace you still wouldn't be able to answer the question without being able to control for many other things. And you don't have anywhere near a perfect record of injuries to begin with and there's no way to get it. I've published research and been involved with plenty of medical studies and you're just going to have to take my word on this not being something where you're ever going to be able to get good data. 

 

I can agree that there's no good data saying they work. Can you agree there's also no good data to say they don't work or cause harm? Anecdote =/= data. 

ando wrote:
I’ve used less than perfect data many times to make business decisions.  It doesn’t have to be clean, sanitised and 100% perfect.  We’re not talking about...

I’ve used less than perfect data many times to make business decisions.  It doesn’t have to be clean, sanitised and 100% perfect.  We’re not talking about publishing a scientific paper.

By your standard of proof helmets and boots offer dubious safety benefits as well.  There’s no good data to support their perceived benefits.

I agree there isn’t a good body of data right now.  If I was to tackle this though I’d start with AMA supercross and motocross riders from the last 20 years as a sample.  Their injury history is fairly well documented, especially serious permanent disability injuries that neck braces are designed to prevent.

 

You're agreeing with me, you just don't realize it. 

 

I agree that helmets and boots don't have high quality evidence behind them, and I wouldn't let that stop me from wearing them, just as I wouldn't let the lack of great evidence stop me from wearing a neck brace. That was my original point to those saying there's no evidence they work. 

 

As far as starting with AMA guys, you're also illustrating my point. How many of those guys have been paralyzed in the last 20 years? Not nearly enough to draw any conclusions from either way. 

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Madmax31
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8/24/2023 11:58am

Same reason you see people not wearing chest/back protection.  Blissful ignorance. 

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ando
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8/24/2023 3:21pm
truck wrote:
You're agreeing with me, you just don't realize it.    I agree that helmets and boots don't have high quality evidence behind them, and I wouldn't...

You're agreeing with me, you just don't realize it. 

 

I agree that helmets and boots don't have high quality evidence behind them, and I wouldn't let that stop me from wearing them, just as I wouldn't let the lack of great evidence stop me from wearing a neck brace. That was my original point to those saying there's no evidence they work. 

 

As far as starting with AMA guys, you're also illustrating my point. How many of those guys have been paralyzed in the last 20 years? Not nearly enough to draw any conclusions from either way. 

All data is useful.

If there’s been not a single case of a paralysed national level rider in over 20 years, what’s the case for a device that prevents paralysis injuries?

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truck
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8/24/2023 3:45pm
truck wrote:
You're agreeing with me, you just don't realize it.    I agree that helmets and boots don't have high quality evidence behind them, and I wouldn't...

You're agreeing with me, you just don't realize it. 

 

I agree that helmets and boots don't have high quality evidence behind them, and I wouldn't let that stop me from wearing them, just as I wouldn't let the lack of great evidence stop me from wearing a neck brace. That was my original point to those saying there's no evidence they work. 

 

As far as starting with AMA guys, you're also illustrating my point. How many of those guys have been paralyzed in the last 20 years? Not nearly enough to draw any conclusions from either way. 

ando wrote:
All data is useful. If there’s been not a single case of a paralysed national level rider in over 20 years, what’s the case for a...

All data is useful.

If there’s been not a single case of a paralysed national level rider in over 20 years, what’s the case for a device that prevents paralysis injuries?

The number definitely isn't zero, and no idea why you'd pick arbitrary cutoffs if all data is useful. 

ando
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8/24/2023 5:01pm
truck wrote:
You're agreeing with me, you just don't realize it.    I agree that helmets and boots don't have high quality evidence behind them, and I wouldn't...

You're agreeing with me, you just don't realize it. 

 

I agree that helmets and boots don't have high quality evidence behind them, and I wouldn't let that stop me from wearing them, just as I wouldn't let the lack of great evidence stop me from wearing a neck brace. That was my original point to those saying there's no evidence they work. 

 

As far as starting with AMA guys, you're also illustrating my point. How many of those guys have been paralyzed in the last 20 years? Not nearly enough to draw any conclusions from either way. 

ando wrote:
All data is useful. If there’s been not a single case of a paralysed national level rider in over 20 years, what’s the case for a...

All data is useful.

If there’s been not a single case of a paralysed national level rider in over 20 years, what’s the case for a device that prevents paralysis injuries?

truck wrote:

The number definitely isn't zero, and no idea why you'd pick arbitrary cutoffs if all data is useful. 

So in your research papers you had no cutoffs for time or other parameters for data?  Come on, all research takes data samples which automatically implies the dataset is cutoff somewhere.

Who are the national level riders who’ve been paralysed in the last 20 years?  Should be pretty easy to find out if you’re sure it’s not zero.

 

truck
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8/24/2023 5:51pm Edited Date/Time 8/24/2023 6:47pm
ando wrote:
All data is useful. If there’s been not a single case of a paralysed national level rider in over 20 years, what’s the case for a...

All data is useful.

If there’s been not a single case of a paralysed national level rider in over 20 years, what’s the case for a device that prevents paralysis injuries?

truck wrote:

The number definitely isn't zero, and no idea why you'd pick arbitrary cutoffs if all data is useful. 

ando wrote:
So in your research papers you had no cutoffs for time or other parameters for data?  Come on, all research takes data samples which automatically implies...

So in your research papers you had no cutoffs for time or other parameters for data?  Come on, all research takes data samples which automatically implies the dataset is cutoff somewhere.

Who are the national level riders who’ve been paralysed in the last 20 years?  Should be pretty easy to find out if you’re sure it’s not zero.

 

Ernesto Fonseca, Brian Moreau, Scott Sheak, Jeremy Shuttleworth..... Google it and you can find plenty of other local fast guys running around in wheel chairs now. Are we really arguing that this is a thing? 

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Shakybonez15
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8/24/2023 6:01pm
truck wrote:
Show me the data?   Quite difficult actually and that kind data is basically junk. Retrospective, relies on self reporting and prone to every kind of...

Show me the data?

 

Quite difficult actually and that kind data is basically junk. Retrospective, relies on self reporting and prone to every kind of bias. So many variables at play that even if you had a perfect record of injuries and whether or not they involved a brace you still wouldn't be able to answer the question without being able to control for many other things. And you don't have anywhere near a perfect record of injuries to begin with and there's no way to get it. I've published research and been involved with plenty of medical studies and you're just going to have to take my word on this not being something where you're ever going to be able to get good data. 

 

I can agree that there's no good data saying they work. Can you agree there's also no good data to say they don't work or cause harm? Anecdote =/= data. 

Anecdote, is some peoples reality though. However that then brings in the conundrum of it works for him but not the other.. and you cannot control every variable.

1
8/25/2023 3:48pm

Lots of good convo of different points. Seems to bother some and without verifiable data some people don’t see the point. 
Doesn’t matter to me what a person does, I can wear one without any issues and it does feel like it stops my helmet from over extending my neck towards the front and back and I think they look cool. I’ll let y’all know if one day I get so good they get super annoying. Silly

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OW38B
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8/25/2023 6:08pm
Madmax31 wrote:

Same reason you see people not wearing chest/back protection.  Blissful ignorance. 

What is it you are trying to say? 

hubbardmx50
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8/25/2023 6:20pm
The only neck brace wearers that I can think of are Gajser, Geerts (he wasn’t wearing one this weekend, maybe do to the recent shoulder injury)...

The only neck brace wearers that I can think of are Gajser, Geerts (he wasn’t wearing one this weekend, maybe do to the recent shoulder injury), Tom Koch, Adam Sterry, Josh Gilbert & Shaun Simpson. Seewer used to wear one all the time but he ditched it at the start of last season. 

Chiz, Josh Cartwright 

2
seth419
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8/25/2023 9:12pm Edited Date/Time 8/26/2023 11:57am

I fractured C1 a year and a half ago while wearing an Alpinestars neck brace after high siding through a whoops section. I thought I just had really bad whiplash and even rode the next week before getting a MRI. After it healed my doctor had me bring in the helmet and brace to put me through the crash motion and said I would have probably been quad or gone without the brace on. Doctor wanted me to limit the movement even more and I told her its not possible with how much you need to move around in moto.

11
mxracer666
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8/25/2023 10:10pm
TAUTOG wrote:
I don't notice mine. A Doctor friend of mine tried to wear the older and newer low profile Leatt ones and said he couldn't see when...

I don't notice mine. A Doctor friend of mine tried to wear the older and newer low profile Leatt ones and said he couldn't see when he was standing so he gave them to me. So a Doc/surgeon who I personally know wanted to wear one is good enough for me to wear it.

he couldnt see with it, so he gave it you, that doesn't sound like he thought it was a good product? Am i miss reading

You may have noticed that some people have longer necks, and some have shorter necks? This probably had a lot to do with the fitment...

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zookrider62!
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8/26/2023 5:41am
TAUTOG wrote:
I don't notice mine. A Doctor friend of mine tried to wear the older and newer low profile Leatt ones and said he couldn't see when...

I don't notice mine. A Doctor friend of mine tried to wear the older and newer low profile Leatt ones and said he couldn't see when he was standing so he gave them to me. So a Doc/surgeon who I personally know wanted to wear one is good enough for me to wear it.

he couldnt see with it, so he gave it you, that doesn't sound like he thought it was a good product? Am i miss reading

mxracer666 wrote:

You may have noticed that some people have longer necks, and some have shorter necks? This probably had a lot to do with the fitment...

Odd that the braces do not have sizes for short/long. 

hubbardmx50
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8/26/2023 11:52am
seth419 wrote:
I fractured C1 a year and a half ago while wearing an Alpinestars neck brace after high siding through a whoops section. I thought I just...

I fractured C1 a year and a half ago while wearing an Alpinestars neck brace after high siding through a whoops section. I thought I just had really bad whiplash and even rode the next week before getting a MRI. After it healed my doctor had me bring in the helmet and brace to put me through the crash motion and said I would have probably been quad or gone without the brace on. Doctor wanted me to limit the movement even more and I told her its not possible with how much you need to move around in moto.

That's gnarly. Glad you're alright! I wore the first gen Alpinestars brace for a long time and still have it in my garage. I wear the atlas air brace now. 

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OW38B
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9/12/2023 11:42am

Well the bloom is certainly off the rose......

Mit12
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9/12/2023 9:12pm Edited Date/Time 9/12/2023 9:15pm

Your arguments are a bunch of back and forth BS because it boils down to one simple thing, riders don't like them there fore they don’t wear them. See how simple that was! 

4
9/12/2023 9:28pm Edited Date/Time 9/13/2023 4:42am
Mit12 wrote:
Your arguments are a bunch of back and forth BS because it boils down to one simple thing, riders don't like them there fore they don’t...

Your arguments are a bunch of back and forth BS because it boils down to one simple thing, riders don't like them there fore they don’t wear them. See how simple that was! 

If you gotta think like that, probably the hardest math you are capable of if I had to guess. 
 

Sometimes doing things you don’t like, save you from an oh shit moment later. I just find it kind of weird, but to each their own. 
I like mine. 

9/13/2023 1:16am
seth419 wrote:
I fractured C1 a year and a half ago while wearing an Alpinestars neck brace after high siding through a whoops section. I thought I just...

I fractured C1 a year and a half ago while wearing an Alpinestars neck brace after high siding through a whoops section. I thought I just had really bad whiplash and even rode the next week before getting a MRI. After it healed my doctor had me bring in the helmet and brace to put me through the crash motion and said I would have probably been quad or gone without the brace on. Doctor wanted me to limit the movement even more and I told her its not possible with how much you need to move around in moto.

This is it imo, the people that say " still broke neck with one on", what about the people that die from brain injurys with a helmet on? blow knees with braces on? brake ankles with boots on? does not mean they dont work.

I understand people not liking them for the comfort factor ( which once used to i dont notice mine at all) I dont understand how people think they dont work, just put one on vs not and see how good it feels flexing your head to touch your shoulder

3
mx691
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9/13/2023 3:52am
truck wrote:

The number definitely isn't zero, and no idea why you'd pick arbitrary cutoffs if all data is useful. 

ando wrote:
So in your research papers you had no cutoffs for time or other parameters for data?  Come on, all research takes data samples which automatically implies...

So in your research papers you had no cutoffs for time or other parameters for data?  Come on, all research takes data samples which automatically implies the dataset is cutoff somewhere.

Who are the national level riders who’ve been paralysed in the last 20 years?  Should be pretty easy to find out if you’re sure it’s not zero.

 

truck wrote:
Ernesto Fonseca, Brian Moreau, Scott Sheak, Jeremy Shuttleworth..... Google it and you can find plenty of other local fast guys running around in wheel chairs now. Are...

Ernesto Fonseca, Brian Moreau, Scott Sheak, Jeremy Shuttleworth..... Google it and you can find plenty of other local fast guys running around in wheel chairs now. Are we really arguing that this is a thing? 

…Jessy Nelson, Joel Roelants, Mickaël Musquin…

1
9/13/2023 4:33am

Football players use to all have the “neck roll” pads. 
 

Most don’t wear them anymore. 

1
cloud41
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9/13/2023 4:53am

I had the old leatt version and stopped wearing it several years ago when I crashed into another rider because I could not look up ahead/high enough in a valley.  

2
9/13/2023 4:58am
mx691 wrote:

…Jessy Nelson, Joel Roelants, Mickaël Musquin…

Mickael Musquin was wearing a neck brace when he got injured. The other two weren’t. 

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mx691
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9/13/2023 5:30am
mx691 wrote:

…Jessy Nelson, Joel Roelants, Mickaël Musquin…

Mickael Musquin was wearing a neck brace when he got injured. The other two weren’t. 

Ah, ok!

Juck
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9/13/2023 5:39am
ando wrote:
So in your research papers you had no cutoffs for time or other parameters for data?  Come on, all research takes data samples which automatically implies...

So in your research papers you had no cutoffs for time or other parameters for data?  Come on, all research takes data samples which automatically implies the dataset is cutoff somewhere.

Who are the national level riders who’ve been paralysed in the last 20 years?  Should be pretty easy to find out if you’re sure it’s not zero.

 

truck wrote:
Ernesto Fonseca, Brian Moreau, Scott Sheak, Jeremy Shuttleworth..... Google it and you can find plenty of other local fast guys running around in wheel chairs now. Are...

Ernesto Fonseca, Brian Moreau, Scott Sheak, Jeremy Shuttleworth..... Google it and you can find plenty of other local fast guys running around in wheel chairs now. Are we really arguing that this is a thing? 

mx691 wrote:

…Jessy Nelson, Joel Roelants, Mickaël Musquin…

Wasn't Nelson's injury a back injury that neck braces aren't designed to protect?

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mx691
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9/13/2023 6:57am
truck wrote:
Ernesto Fonseca, Brian Moreau, Scott Sheak, Jeremy Shuttleworth..... Google it and you can find plenty of other local fast guys running around in wheel chairs now. Are...

Ernesto Fonseca, Brian Moreau, Scott Sheak, Jeremy Shuttleworth..... Google it and you can find plenty of other local fast guys running around in wheel chairs now. Are we really arguing that this is a thing? 

mx691 wrote:

…Jessy Nelson, Joel Roelants, Mickaël Musquin…

Juck wrote:

Wasn't Nelson's injury a back injury that neck braces aren't designed to protect?

Dont know…

Original argument was: ”How many of those guys have been paralyzed in the last 20 years?”

I did not count in with or without neckbrace or how it happened, just racers who got paralyzed.

Whatever.

9/13/2023 7:22am
Juck wrote:

Wasn't Nelson's injury a back injury that neck braces aren't designed to protect?

Nelson wasn’t wearing a neck brace when he got injured. 

Post a reply to: Why no neck braces?

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