Budds Creek Red flag restart idea

Brad460
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8/20/2023 2:58pm

Restart was complete bullshit and expect a rule change here…Probably wouldn’t have red flagged the race if Hunter “didn’t have food growing up” Lawrence was in the lead…

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ando
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8/20/2023 3:32pm
philG wrote:

there are rules 

They were followed. 

Yes, classic case of everybody being ok with the rules beforehand and not ok after they are actually applied.

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ando
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8/20/2023 3:37pm

Another option instead of a full restart is the “pace car” idea from car racing.  Could be made to work on a motocross track.

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bvm111
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8/20/2023 3:46pm

i think they should do le man’s style running restart … 😂

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davis224
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8/20/2023 3:56pm
Brad460 wrote:
Restart was complete bullshit and expect a rule change here…Probably wouldn’t have red flagged the race if Hunter “didn’t have food growing up” Lawrence was in...

Restart was complete bullshit and expect a rule change here…Probably wouldn’t have red flagged the race if Hunter “didn’t have food growing up” Lawrence was in the lead…

Where does this thinking come from that the Lawrences have some sort of official pull over Deegan?

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yak651
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8/20/2023 4:21pm
Brad460 wrote:
Restart was complete bullshit and expect a rule change here…Probably wouldn’t have red flagged the race if Hunter “didn’t have food growing up” Lawrence was in...

Restart was complete bullshit and expect a rule change here…Probably wouldn’t have red flagged the race if Hunter “didn’t have food growing up” Lawrence was in the lead…

davis224 wrote:

Where does this thinking come from that the Lawrences have some sort of official pull over Deegan?

Didn’t you know the A in AMA stands from Australian 

8/20/2023 4:54pm
kylemenz1 wrote:

It seemed like they could have gotten away with a yellow and Red Cross flags with where the incident took place 

Stopping race action to attend to a safety situation is definitely an area in the procedures/rules that I am good with being observed.

So am I. But where the incident happened it appeared they had a long straight before the big triple step up and the rider was off the track. I wasn’t there so I cannot confirm medics crews had good access to the rider. 

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TDeath21
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8/20/2023 4:57pm
kylemenz1 wrote:

It seemed like they could have gotten away with a yellow and Red Cross flags with where the incident took place 

Stopping race action to attend to a safety situation is definitely an area in the procedures/rules that I am good with being observed.

kylemenz1 wrote:
So am I. But where the incident happened it appeared they had a long straight before the big triple step up and the rider was off...

So am I. But where the incident happened it appeared they had a long straight before the big triple step up and the rider was off the track. I wasn’t there so I cannot confirm medics crews had good access to the rider. 

I was there and I can’t confirm whether or not they could have tended to him on the side of the track and kept the race going. I can confirm that when the mule came over it was parked right in the middle of the track and crossed different sections of the track multiple times to get over to the asterisk rig. Then I saw an ambulance leave shortly after, presumably with the rider inside and on the way to the hospital. In my opinion, the red flag was the right call. The rules, as they are written, are what most of us here are baffled by. Insane to have a full restart yet keep the time the same as it was during the red flag.

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OW38B
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8/20/2023 5:19pm
kylemenz1 wrote:

It seemed like they could have gotten away with a yellow and Red Cross flags with where the incident took place 

I concur.

Reroute if that would work.

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OW38B
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8/20/2023 5:22pm
zehn wrote:
Deegan nailed the start once then completely botched it and made it worse by pulling a dumb move into the first corner He screwed himself. Everyone...

Deegan nailed the start once then completely botched it and made it worse by pulling a dumb move into the first corner

He screwed himself. Everyone else had to restart as well

"Everyone else had to restart as well"........but they were not 7 seconds out front and pulling away.

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ando
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8/20/2023 5:31pm

Overall Deegan’s performance for the day typifies everyone in the 250 class not named Lawrence - lack of consistency.

He had three moto starts for the day.  His first lap positions were first, last and 11th.

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8/20/2023 5:32pm

Next time a title contender is out front by a lot factory teams should have “fall guys” like NHL “goons.”  One of the fall guys lays out on the track and pretends to be “unconscious” for a bit. The race gets a full restart and the other teams get a 2nd chance. Seems like with as big as these “teams” are these days they should start using team tactics. 

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HunterE38
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8/20/2023 6:47pm Edited Date/Time 8/20/2023 6:48pm
philG wrote:

there are rules 

They were followed. 

ando wrote:

Yes, classic case of everybody being ok with the rules beforehand and not ok after they are actually applied.

I don't think most people here knew these were still the rules or would have liked them if they did. Supercross staggered starts make way more sense considering the potential (and in this case realized) impact on the results of the race. It completely flipped the results for many of the riders. And it's not like people are calling for anything to be done about this race. It happened. Is what it is. But criticism of something that you think is a poor rule hoping it gets changed in future seasons does make sense.

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yak651
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8/20/2023 7:32pm
kylemenz1 wrote:

It seemed like they could have gotten away with a yellow and Red Cross flags with where the incident took place 

OW38B wrote:

I concur.

Reroute if that would work.

Reroute during the moto? 🤦‍♂️

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ando
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8/20/2023 7:39pm
philG wrote:

there are rules 

They were followed. 

ando wrote:

Yes, classic case of everybody being ok with the rules beforehand and not ok after they are actually applied.

HunterE38 wrote:
I don't think most people here knew these were still the rules or would have liked them if they did. Supercross staggered starts make way more...

I don't think most people here knew these were still the rules or would have liked them if they did. Supercross staggered starts make way more sense considering the potential (and in this case realized) impact on the results of the race. It completely flipped the results for many of the riders. And it's not like people are calling for anything to be done about this race. It happened. Is what it is. But criticism of something that you think is a poor rule hoping it gets changed in future seasons does make sense.

I happen to agree that a staggered restart is probably the best way.  I'm assuming these rules have been the same for many years though.  

dsmith
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8/20/2023 7:59pm
RonSkj wrote:
How hard would it be to build a programmable starting gate where the gates fall in sequential order. Line them up left to right and have...

How hard would it be to build a programmable starting gate where the gates fall in sequential order. Line them up left to right and have the gates fall in order and time of the last recorded crossing at the finish line. Or maybe just fall in order every 1.5 seconds.

We have the technology

That would be cool...

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8/21/2023 7:11am

Everyone that is a fan of this sport should be on board with a massive rule change about what happened. Half way thru a moto, leader is at a 10 second lead and gapping the field, and you do a full restart??? How can that make any sense? The race is WELL underway and 15 mins of racing has been put in, the race has settled into place at that time. Anything after 3 laps should be either a staggered start like supercross, or a rolling start with the top 5 getting their rider gaps back if they had any.

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1
8/21/2023 7:25am

Again, it is too hard and time consuming to reconstruct the running order fairly after a track obstructing medical red flag.

A new, short race is the sensible, practical solution; time honoured for decades.

Leave the rules alone. Stiff shit for Danger but it's happened to heaps of riders. 

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stremme12
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8/21/2023 7:34am
Again, it is too hard and time consuming to reconstruct the running order fairly after a track obstructing medical red flag. A new, short race is...

Again, it is too hard and time consuming to reconstruct the running order fairly after a track obstructing medical red flag.

A new, short race is the sensible, practical solution; time honoured for decades.

Leave the rules alone. Stiff shit for Danger but it's happened to heaps of riders. 

What do you mean by it's too hard and time consuming to reconstruct the running order?

They have to give the gate picks by the running order anyway so they're accomplishing the new running order already. 

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lumpy790
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8/21/2023 9:20am

NEW UTV series sponsorship possibility.

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Shred
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8/21/2023 9:32am

I think the rule is good as is if I don’t like the rider leading the race at the time.  If I like the rider leading then it should be staggered start….maybe sort of like a time trial in the Tour de France except you depart with the same time advantage as when the race was red flagged.

.

calm down…I’m joking…

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Shred
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8/21/2023 9:48am Edited Date/Time 8/21/2023 10:06am

btw…an equal crime of a restart was a couple of years ago at Daytona SX.  Mcadoo has that gnarly rag doll foot caught on the bike body slam crash.  Had he got up he would have been basically a lap down but understandably lays there.  Causes red flag.  Then decides he wants to be in the restart.  Initially told no but persuades med to re-check him.  Gets okayed.  Wins the race.  People talked about how tough he was to accomplish it, and he was, but he blew the race in a major way and got a mulligan for himself.  Not sure if the rule even got changed but never understood why someone in a championship battle that got a really bad start didn’t accidentally “go down” and lay in the middle of the track sayin “don’t move me.. my neck”…then hop up after the red flag and say “never mind…pinched nerve…I’m fine now…let’s race”.

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8/21/2023 10:11am
Brad460 wrote:
Restart was complete bullshit and expect a rule change here…Probably wouldn’t have red flagged the race if Hunter “didn’t have food growing up” Lawrence was in...

Restart was complete bullshit and expect a rule change here…Probably wouldn’t have red flagged the race if Hunter “didn’t have food growing up” Lawrence was in the lead…

davis224 wrote:

Where does this thinking come from that the Lawrences have some sort of official pull over Deegan?

Yah first MX sports , Star Yamaha and the Deegans were working together to screw the kid out of claiming a bike. And now  MX sports and Honda are working together to screw over Star and Deegan.   Funny how that works. Almost like they are just applying the rules to each situation. All the manufactures have a say in the rule making.  

The rolling restart idea sounds like a great idea.  Could stage the riders single file in order , and then send them out  ,say in second gear until they went across the  Start/finish line and then the race is on!  Could work for both MX and SX. Maybe do a rolling lap , or just stage them a set distance from the finish line.

Or like Lumpy said, get a UTV sponsored pace car for restarts , that would also lead the riders on the parade lap . So it could get exposure at each round , and not only when somebody was hurt.  And there is a lot of surface on a UTV for a company to get their branding on.  Might be harder to get around an SX track in one , but outdoors would work 100%. Maybe indoors they could have a pace bike ?   

captmoto
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8/21/2023 10:11am
kylemenz1 wrote:

It seemed like they could have gotten away with a yellow and Red Cross flags with where the incident took place 

If the Mule has to cross the track at any point the red flag makes sense. You saw how well yellow flags work out last week with Anderson.

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8/21/2023 10:29am
Shred wrote:
btw…an equal crime of a restart was a couple of years ago at Daytona SX.  Mcadoo has that gnarly rag doll foot caught on the bike...

btw…an equal crime of a restart was a couple of years ago at Daytona SX.  Mcadoo has that gnarly rag doll foot caught on the bike body slam crash.  Had he got up he would have been basically a lap down but understandably lays there.  Causes red flag.  Then decides he wants to be in the restart.  Initially told no but persuades med to re-check him.  Gets okayed.  Wins the race.  People talked about how tough he was to accomplish it, and he was, but he blew the race in a major way and got a mulligan for himself.  Not sure if the rule even got changed but never understood why someone in a championship battle that got a really bad start didn’t accidentally “go down” and lay in the middle of the track sayin “don’t move me.. my neck”…then hop up after the red flag and say “never mind…pinched nerve…I’m fine now…let’s race”.

At local NESC races there were riders who were laying down in the track if they had a bad start. Getting them to throw a red flag, and getting a second shot at the start. I heard stories of riders doing it in the early 90's. They made a rule that if You were involved in the race being black flagged( they use black flags or did at the time instead of a red flag) then You could not line back up in that moto. It might of even said You were done for the entire day, I would have to go back and reread it. 

 My first  ever race was at Southwick and I was in a first turn crash, they restarted my moto 2 times! so 3 gate drops. It was a qualifier since there was  over 100 guys in that class that day. I had crashed in both of the start's, but since I got up right away I was able to keep going. My buddies told me about the rule that day, and told me the story of the riders laying down.

I would bet that it is a rule in AMA Pro racing that You can not do that.I think they changed it to be similar to the local rule.   

Shred
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8/21/2023 10:39am
Shred wrote:
btw…an equal crime of a restart was a couple of years ago at Daytona SX.  Mcadoo has that gnarly rag doll foot caught on the bike...

btw…an equal crime of a restart was a couple of years ago at Daytona SX.  Mcadoo has that gnarly rag doll foot caught on the bike body slam crash.  Had he got up he would have been basically a lap down but understandably lays there.  Causes red flag.  Then decides he wants to be in the restart.  Initially told no but persuades med to re-check him.  Gets okayed.  Wins the race.  People talked about how tough he was to accomplish it, and he was, but he blew the race in a major way and got a mulligan for himself.  Not sure if the rule even got changed but never understood why someone in a championship battle that got a really bad start didn’t accidentally “go down” and lay in the middle of the track sayin “don’t move me.. my neck”…then hop up after the red flag and say “never mind…pinched nerve…I’m fine now…let’s race”.

At local NESC races there were riders who were laying down in the track if they had a bad start. Getting them to throw a red...

At local NESC races there were riders who were laying down in the track if they had a bad start. Getting them to throw a red flag, and getting a second shot at the start. I heard stories of riders doing it in the early 90's. They made a rule that if You were involved in the race being black flagged( they use black flags or did at the time instead of a red flag) then You could not line back up in that moto. It might of even said You were done for the entire day, I would have to go back and reread it. 

 My first  ever race was at Southwick and I was in a first turn crash, they restarted my moto 2 times! so 3 gate drops. It was a qualifier since there was  over 100 guys in that class that day. I had crashed in both of the start's, but since I got up right away I was able to keep going. My buddies told me about the rule that day, and told me the story of the riders laying down.

I would bet that it is a rule in AMA Pro racing that You can not do that.I think they changed it to be similar to the local rule.   

All I know is that was not the rule 2 years ago for SX.  No idea if that has changed.

8/21/2023 10:50am
Shred wrote:
btw…an equal crime of a restart was a couple of years ago at Daytona SX.  Mcadoo has that gnarly rag doll foot caught on the bike...

btw…an equal crime of a restart was a couple of years ago at Daytona SX.  Mcadoo has that gnarly rag doll foot caught on the bike body slam crash.  Had he got up he would have been basically a lap down but understandably lays there.  Causes red flag.  Then decides he wants to be in the restart.  Initially told no but persuades med to re-check him.  Gets okayed.  Wins the race.  People talked about how tough he was to accomplish it, and he was, but he blew the race in a major way and got a mulligan for himself.  Not sure if the rule even got changed but never understood why someone in a championship battle that got a really bad start didn’t accidentally “go down” and lay in the middle of the track sayin “don’t move me.. my neck”…then hop up after the red flag and say “never mind…pinched nerve…I’m fine now…let’s race”.

At local NESC races there were riders who were laying down in the track if they had a bad start. Getting them to throw a red...

At local NESC races there were riders who were laying down in the track if they had a bad start. Getting them to throw a red flag, and getting a second shot at the start. I heard stories of riders doing it in the early 90's. They made a rule that if You were involved in the race being black flagged( they use black flags or did at the time instead of a red flag) then You could not line back up in that moto. It might of even said You were done for the entire day, I would have to go back and reread it. 

 My first  ever race was at Southwick and I was in a first turn crash, they restarted my moto 2 times! so 3 gate drops. It was a qualifier since there was  over 100 guys in that class that day. I had crashed in both of the start's, but since I got up right away I was able to keep going. My buddies told me about the rule that day, and told me the story of the riders laying down.

I would bet that it is a rule in AMA Pro racing that You can not do that.I think they changed it to be similar to the local rule.   

Shred wrote:

All I know is that was not the rule 2 years ago for SX.  No idea if that has changed.

I thought I remember them saying it was changed because of that incident. But maybe it was just talk of changing it because of  what You were saying. I was surprised it was not a rule in Pro racing when Mcadoo was able to restart. I'm sure somebody will post the rule if its in the rule book now. 

zehn
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8/21/2023 11:38am
Brad460 wrote:
Restart was complete bullshit and expect a rule change here…Probably wouldn’t have red flagged the race if Hunter “didn’t have food growing up” Lawrence was in...

Restart was complete bullshit and expect a rule change here…Probably wouldn’t have red flagged the race if Hunter “didn’t have food growing up” Lawrence was in the lead…

You’re right bro, poor Deegan is so oppressed by MX Sports and the AMA, it’s amazing he can even race out there with the odds stacked so heavily against him

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burn1986
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8/21/2023 1:04pm Edited Date/Time 8/21/2023 1:06pm
lumpy790 wrote:
In a facebook discussion about the Budds Creek 250 red flag restart a friend suggested something like all the riders lining up and doing a NASCAR...

In a facebook discussion about the Budds Creek 250 red flag restart a friend suggested something like all the riders lining up and doing a NASCAR green flag restart.

If they did single file on a flatish smooth area or even the face of a low speed jump that would be a great way to do restart at a National. 

Dave Coombs, Tim Cotter, MXSports are you listening?

Lot of downvotes, but I agree. The idea to start it again at the starting gate is a crappy way to do it, especially on the 250s with how close the points are. Yes, Deegan got screwed over, and everyone in the top 10.

It’s one of those racing things that happens though, riders just have to deal with it.

Shred
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8/25/2023 10:08am

btw….when Deegan goes down on the restart a Star mechanic runs out…lifts a bike off of Deegan’s bike and almost throws it over the other way (interfering with the other rider a little) and proceeds to help Deegan with his bike that seemed to have something jammed on the left side.  I thought team could not help the rider on the track.  Anyone?

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