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I was playing that on the lower side of hours, and at PRO level speed and abuse. At the extremes . If you take better care of it and are not abusing it, you can get more life. I did see some info on cells saying that they could get 1500-5000 recharge cycles. That would put You around 1000 hours of Pro level ridetime assuming 2000 cycles was what You got. I went with the lowest number I saw. Giving the Gas bike every advantage possible.
With A gas engine that performs similarly , You would spend more on the gas bike. Of course riding an XR100 will be less expensive than a CRF450WE that has a modified engine that will need service every hour. The benefit of Electric is You can have that performance without the heavy maintenance
If You are following the maintenance schedule in Your manual You would be spending a good amount of money. Without real world runtime's I only have the specs and service intervals that are provided by manufacturers. Perhaps they too are being overly cautious like the gas bike makers in their specs about lifespans.I can not remember the exact cell used in the Varg, so I went with the lowest numbers I found for the cell types I remember being talked about. And perhaps they will get many more charge cycles when ridden by the average rider like you who is not hard on a bike.
Let’s look at Tesla and the maintenance they recommend:
- Check (and replace if contaminated) the brake fluid every 2 years
- Replace the cabin air filter every 2-3 years
- Replace the fluid in the AC every 4 years
Their data on battery degradation for their entire fleet shows 12% battery degradation over 200.000 miles. Brakes should last for the car‘s lifetime because most braking is done by regeneration. The power steering is electric.
Looking at my VW Bus I’ve driven for 200.000 miles and the amount of money I put into the car to keep it running, the Tesla stats looks like something out of a fewerish dream.
Of course you‘ll need tyres and suspension parts and all the small bits. However, most of the maintenance cost come form all the engine and gearbox related stuff.
Engine and gearbox oil, air and oil filters, cooling and hydraulic fluids, turbo charger, egr valve, exhaust system, mass damper and clutch are all things that needed service and/or replacing for my VW.
Of course I am comparing the Varg to other bikes in its price and performance range. Just like you would not compare an XR100 to a CR450WE. The rider who is buying a 10 year old 2 stroke is not going to be buying a new Varg or KTM, FE, Kawi SR 450 , etc. . So I'll agree that is not the same as buying a second hand 250 2 stroke.
You were putting yourself at the level of a rider who would only get a 30 minute runtime, So I was comparing the level of maintenance a rider of that speed would need to do to a gas bike to ride that much every weekend. Just cleaning an air filter will wear it out.
If somebody in this area has the land for a track, there will be somebody with a machine willing to help out as long as they can ride the track. Or You can rent a skid steer for $600 or less for a weekend , and a couple guys decent with chainsaws can cut in a small track in a weekend. Might not be the best track in the world, but You can do it and improve as You go.
I think its clear we are from 2 different worlds. How many years have you been riding that 2 stroke of yours?
I hope it's similar to the KTM E5 in regards to maintenance. Best bike I've ever owned. My son rode it a full season, put 80 hours on it, changed 3 rear tires couple chain and sprockets. Nothing else. Only had to change the oil in the generator once. Night and day better than the cobra 50 maintenance or even his YZ 65. Still has favorite bike to this day. Wishes they made a 65 or 85 ebike.
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Maybe one year? It's a 21 I bought in 21 and it's just got 30 hours on it. I've had one before though. I have a 350 as well. Which also takes beans for maintenance basically. 13 dollar oil changes every 4-5 hours are not hurting anyone lol. What other maintenance can I even do?
That's fine, I don't feel the need to hang degree/certs on my office wall to validate myself but if you want to that's fine with me.
It doesn't validate anything. What a pussy response lol.
Do you have your own land you ride on? Ever get grief from the neighbors?
It seems like the FFM will allow the Stark in the french 450 SX class for the five remaining races, starting on August 26 in Saint Georges.
Lifepo4 batteries have around 3000 – 5000 charge cycles at 80% depth of charge after.
one cycle = 100% discharge.
Varg batteries will last 10 years no problem before capacity drops to 80%.
That’s like filling your tank of gas for 10 years of use and still have 80% capacity left.
Well if Your only riding 30 hours a year that is not that much. I can see why stuff lasts so long.
Doing that with a Varg You would get 10 years on the low end before needing to do anything to the battery or motor.
I was unsure of what cells the Varg has , so I had posted numbers on the lowest end.
But at that rate You could get 750 - 2500 hours of ride time if You are at the 30 min per charge level . If you charge from 20% to 70% that's only half of a cycle. Charging short amounts of time to top off will not decrease Your battery lifespan. Nicads were not like that . Electric motors are rated by 1000's of hours.
For Owen and his YZ250, that would be over 83 years of riding before needing a new battery.
So , no EV, not even the mighty Tesla, is "maintenance free" then.
So why does that lie keep being repeated by EV enthusiasts ?
" Lower maintenance" could be true, in some situations, but not all.
And lower maintenance is not necessarily lower cost , if you have one massive bill every 5 years compared to 5 x small maintenance bills, once each year.
If the Stark has 60/80 hp , then it will probably be like any other 60/80hp bike - it will eat Chains/sprockets/rear tyres, and wear the forks & shock.
so much for "maintenance free"
This thread needs to die. Bad faith arguments from both sides
100% agree
I don't see whats so hard to understand about the maintenance . When they say maintenance free its talking about the powertrain part. Why would anybody think that chain and sprockets, Oil in the suspension, etc. be any different from a maintenance standpoint. Brakes may last longer with the use of regen, or not last as long since the bike is heavier. Same thing with anything that is the same as a gas powered vehicle , but powered by electric.
Its funny how people who dislike the Vargs will come up with any reason they can that it will not work for them. And to an extent the same from the more pro varg side. If the bike will not work for you, just ride whatever you want. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy one or ride one.
Every EV thread devolves into the same argument by the same 4-5 users, no matter what the original post was about. This thread could die, but the next Stark thread will be identical.
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Where would the one massive bill in 5 years come from for an EV? If you can’t see the maintenance and owning cost advantage of an EV it’s because you don’t want to see it.
Fair enough, an eMX isn’t maintenance free. However, if I look at the stuff I have to do to keep my 125SX ticking, more than 85% of time and money for maintenance, repairs and tuning is engine related and will be gone with the Varg. So I would call it an almost maintenance free bike.
I don't know why , I just keep getting sucked back into the same stuff. I keep saying, I'm staying away. But then I find myself going over the same things . I feel like I'm in the movie Groundhog day. I need help, VAA Hello My name is Sasquatch and I'm a vitalholic.
I just feel like if somebody is doing a google search and a thread pops up( I often have search results show message board stuff from Vital and other's). I think it should have more of the full story with claims about the Varg. Its more of a balance thing, for a hypothetical situation.
Go to therapy.
I'm guessing he means a new battery . Most people will end up trading the vehicles in before the batteries get to that point.
Which may create a different problem. But I would think that the Manufacturers have considered that. I think Tesla has a program for used cars. A varg with a dead battery may be like a 4 stroke with a blown engine as far as resale value. But easier to fix. The thing is that by the time they start to die in large numbers , battery prices for similar power should much lower as more are being made.
200-300 hours before the battery charging capacity is reduced to 85% of new...
the battery can still be recharged, but range will be reduced.
You ride 2 strokes, when your bike needs a new piston do you buy a new motor?
If you buy an electric motocross bike you will need to learn how to replace battery cells, 400 cells at $3 each = $1,200...
From Stark's videos it looks like they are using Molicel INR-21700-P45B...
If a Stark with a dead battery is easier to fix than a blown 4 stroke, you should be able to explain why without typing 500 words about it. So please, enlighten us.
The truth is, nobody knows how easy replacing/repairing a pack on a Stark may or may not be. Making statements like that is why you get dragged constantly in these threads. It's great that you're so emotionally invested in this bike, but making statements with little backing them up is why it's so difficult to have a rational discussion about it in the first place.
Below is the Stark Varg Owner's Manual statement regarding storage and charging of the Stark Varg:
Recommended operation and storage ranges
Temperature: 0 to + 25 °C 32 to 77 °F
Do not charge a battery at temperatures below 4°C (40°F).
I email Stark about this and received the following response to include a recommendation to store the bike in a controlled environment for optimal performance.
...these are recommended operational and storage ranges for optimal performance and lifecycle. It doesn't mean, however, the battery or the bike will stop functioning if exceeded. As mentioned, charging, operating and/or storing outside these ranges will affect performance and lifecycle. Unfortunately, the variables are too many for us to offer an exact degradation ratio. Within those ranges, we expect a 20% degradation up to 250 cycles. If outside these ranges, expect degradation to be higher and/or faster.
In regards to warranty, we try to be reasonable with those recommendations when facing any battery failure cases but it's unlikely that major issues arise caused by charging, operating and/or storing the bike outside those ranges.
Again, recommendations are for optimal performance and lifecycle and for that reason we do recommend storage in climate controlled environment.
I was trying to give a worst case event . I used to build my own RC car batteries when I was in elementary school , so I would say that replacing bad cells is easier than a top end on a 2 stroke. I was building them with nicad cells but the concept is the same. That is a great point to make that most of the time when a battery has an issue it is not the entire thing that needs to be replaced. There are third party places rebuilding Tesla batteries right now. And I read an article about Tesla creating what they called a closed loop . And reusing lithium from current batteries instead of mining new lithium.
If people take the time to learn how to safely replace cells , then it will be fairly inexpensive. You might need a few special tools. If Stark is anything like Tesla , they will recommend replacing the entire battery instead of fixing them.And Tesla does not want their dealers repairing batteries, so you have to have a third-party do it if you are unable to. I think its more about liability than anything.
Thank you for getting and posting that info from Stark.
I should have said it should be easier . I did make an assumption that removing a battery would be easier or similar to pulling an engine out. And also based it off a person starting off with similar experience with rebuilding both. If you start off with the engine out, and battery out. Replacing bad cells in an air cooled battery like the Varg has really SHOULD be much more simple than rebuilding a gas engine that has failed to a similar level.
I have built batteries that are smaller , but the concept is the same for connecting the cells. I guess if it is harder to remove a battery from a Varg than an engine from a similar level gas bike. And You are swapping out a new engine, or new battery. Fixing that way may not be easier it may be the same or more difficult. Electric vehicles are MUCH more simple than gas with a transmission.
I guess trying to shorten my posts is not working well. I have a gift for complicating how to turn a doorknob and turning it into a million word instruction manual. I suck at condensing my thoughts. I keep deleting stuff that ruins my points in an effort to shorten them.Rushing ,so I'm not spending a ton of time on here. And its not the Varg I'm excited about. It is what is possible with Electric that I am excited about. The more people learn about the PRO's and Cons , the more I think people will also be excited. And after riding a Varg or Alta or really anything fast that is electric. As far as vehicles like Dirtbikes ,ATV's and similar smaller performance vehicles go.
How do you discharge a 360v battery to safety and how do you connect new ultrasonically welded cells for mx duty?
I don't know the step by step process for a Varg battery , but You know that. I personally have found it easier to replace cells in a battery pack, than rebuild an engine. And I feel like most people who take the time to learn how to replace a cell will come to the same conclusion. I still would not recommend that everybody jump into a battery and try it. But the process itself is more simple than rebuilding a 4 stroke that has blown a hole in the case.
At the rate people replace bikes around me, nobody will be digging into a battery anyway. How many riders do You know with over 300 hours on their bikes?
TIme will prove me right or wrong. Based on what I know about batteries, what I've seen people do as far as building and repairing, and from the drawings and videos I have seen of the Varg, that is my opinion. Take it for what its worth. Its not an argument anybody can win until somebody digs into a Varg battery.
You know ultrasonic welding is still just melting something together with vibration . Its great on an assembly line because of the speed and lack of excess heat. But there are other ways of connecting cells together that can be done with much less expensive tools.
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