I sometimes wonder about the gap between average Joe public weekend racer on the state of the art motocross bikes available to us today and the bikes the factory riders back in the 1970's rode. I remember watching riders like Marty Smith on RC500 works bike or Hannah on a Yamaha OW250 or Jeff Ward ripping around on a Kawasaki SR125 and Roger Decoster on a 1977 Suzuki, but those bikes are like 40 almost 50 year old dinosaurs compared to what you can purchase at your local bike shop today. I know there are some fast MX riders who never made it to the big time on this forum and I'm curious if you think you could beat these legends of 1970's if somehow you could take your new bike, go back in time and blow their minds with the advanced technology and become world champion on it and show a guy like Roger Decoster on his old works bike below a wheel on your futuristic advanced super MX bike.
Joe showed up at the track today. Nice looking offroad bikes. Did 1 lap and loaded up. lol.
I often day dream about this. I think if a solid local pro with a new bike could go back in time say to 1980 when bikes all had 12" travel on a rough 1980 style track howerton,barnett and sun would kick there ass. Now if that same pro went back to pre long travel. Say 76. The local guy on a new bike would win. Yes I am an idiot for thinking of such ridiculous shit.
Kind of an interesting question. The tracks back then were built completely differently and developed differently.
I think the added traction and torque of a modern bike would be a huge advantage but I don’t know that it would make up the difference between an average C rider today vs. the factory pro riders from the mid 70s. They were still fast as hell.
On a 70s era track I would still expect the pro riders to be faster. On a modern track, I would expect the opposite
Around 1993, I was speaking to a very prominent suspension guru about Jeff Wards 1984 SR125 that he had on display and the conversation centered around what a turd the bike was and how much better the stock current stuff was. A lot of advancements took place in the years between '84 and '93. Those older bikes were even bigger heaps.
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Well! I'm glad I'm not the only one who's wondered how us average to local pro riders on a modern factory edition 450 would be able to stack up against the best of the best legendary factory riders on their works bikes back in the 70's when they were in their prime. We have to remember they also ran 45 minutes plus 2 laps I think, so they were animals back in the day. Would the advances in bike technology allow us to run laps even close to what those Pros did in the old days on their super trick works bikes on the same track. I remember looking at pictures of Marty Smiths Factory Honda's and just drooling on the pages of Dirt Bike and Motocross magazines and how cool they were. I was a little kid watching these factory bikes at Puyallup in the Trans-AMA series and absolutely mesmerized by how trick they were. Those were the Days!
You might have a trick bike, but, then again, you've got to do 40 minutes plus 2 laps in those days.
And, of course, you are up against The Worlds Best Riders. A local Pro is still way behind the best riders of those times.
Loretta’s kids today would do things deemed alien advancement in 1975
A top level kid on a modern 65 would be lapping the factory pros on their mid 70's works bikes.
This could be solved very easily. Pick three current relevant riders that would be fast on vintage bikes. For example Carson Brown, Villopoto and maybe Justin Brayton. Now put them on vintage bikes true to what ever era you want. Do they beat a decent “C” rider on modern equipment. Last place in 250 C at Loretta’s was probably an average 20 seconds a lap slower than the winner of 250A. Now just decide which era of vintage bike would give up 20 seconds a lap. Keep in mind how significant the difference is in modern 2t and 4t…3 seconds? 5 seconds? 2.5 seconds? You start losing time pretty quick as you look back in time.
Honda would get the AMA to make a rule that would essentially eliminate 4 strokes.
Somebody get that time travel machine worked out quick!
I guess the only difference, there was a huge difference back then betweent a stock bike and a works bike to the point that they were essentially not even the same bike. Back in the works bike era, some of those bikes were reported to be $100,000 to build by hand and had a lot of exotic materials used on them, plus they had the best of the world riding them. I know Decoster and Smith, Hannah would be blown away had they been able to see 50 years back then into the future what bikes would look like. Just think it's a interesting topic of how competitive a local pro that, but would struggle to qualify for a National would do against the greats of the past on their exotic works era bikes.
Average Joe weekend guy would not beat or run with a top Pro from back than. Fast is fast.
I also used to wonder this, thinking that of course the local will be better, the bikes are just so much better, how could they not be.
Then MXA (I think?), had an article where one of their writers raced Ryno, the writer would stay on a 450, and Ryno would progressively drop to slower bikes unil the writer won. The writer never won, no matter what size bike he was on, Ryno was still faster.
You’d have to get back into the early 80’s-70’s before those guys would start having trouble keeping up with a current local pro on a 450. Basically suspension would be the main thing to hold them back I think. Would also depend on the soil. A slower bike with shit suspension on a really soft track would be a huge hinderance. However the main thing all the best riders always have is/was amazing corner speed and keeping up momentum. Pretty hard to beat that combo until the bike is a complete pile of shit lol
Joe crashes his brains out pushing because he still is not as a good a rider and doesn't really know what he is doing.
I'm too old to even talk about it... But the difference for me is 70's bikes versus 80's bikes. The suspension and geometry today is wildly better than the 70's. But in the 80's, I don't think you beat those guys even on a modern bike, unless you are already that fast and trying to qualify for the nats.
I’m with the opinion that is fast is going to be always fast regardless of the era rider/bike.
Having raced MX in last 6 decades and for consideration I’m a Joe, to take my current bike to the 60’s at still be 72 years young, I’d venture that I would blow their doors off.
Since everything is relative to skill and technology, as Joe and now moving up through the decades somewhere about the 80’s it would go the other way and regardless of my current bike and skills.
Now if Joe gets to scrub is age for each decade – then well maybe it would be a dream come true
I think Carson Browns instagram illustrates that old bikes can be pretty capable in the right hands.
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Agree 100%. I would be curious about the suspension on some of the bikes he rides. They aren’t lacking in knowledge and resources.
Riding has come a long way too. Just look at Jerry riding that old CR at the LL qualifier a few years ago. It was striking to see a modern style on that era of bike.
I don't think a kid on a 65 from Loretta's could beat Roger D., but I DO think that the winner of 450 B at Loretta's would smoke the field in the 1978 250 Nationals. Bob Hannah would have a bad day. Remember, it's not only the bikes which have gotten better; the techniques and the perception of speed have also advanced. Pro riders from the '70s would break the bike trying to keep up; that's the biggest problem for them.
The real question (for me, anyway,) is this: would a Vet B racer like myself be able to hold off a charging Bob Hannah for 45 minutes + 2 laps? You know I'm getting the holeshot. I'm jumping stuff he cannot do. I don't get "Yama-hop" in the braking bumps. I don't have to try very hard on the straights; just ride a wide bike and out-accelerate everyone. (Thus, ROYALLY pissing off Hannah!)
I think I'd get beaten, but it would be a reasonable battle up until the point where I tire out. (Well before 45 minutes, for sure!)
Oh, and one more thing: I think even I myself, the biggest 4-stroke hater here on Vital, would rather race a modern YZ450F than Bob Hannah's '78 OW250, if it were to get the best finish I possibly could.
Have the riders gotten better? As the bikes and tracks evolve so do the techniques that are effective but a modern rider on a dual shock riding a natural terrain grass covered track would use the same techniques those guys did.
I also have a hard time buying the fitness improvements. Modern fitness training methodology might be better but the discipline, dedication and will power isn't any higher than Bob Hannah chasing gus down at the end of a 45 minute moto. I mean those guys trained there asses off for those 45 min motos
Riders are undoubtedly far more fit than 50 years ago, absolutely no question.
Dudes were pounding beers and banging girls between motos sometimes back then. Yes the power of will was never a question but training techniques and knowledge is literally light years ahead of where it was even 30 years ago, let alone 50
I don't think the Average Joe today (OP's question) is as fit as the elite riders of any generation.
I started thinking about my 1987 Honda CR500 and one of the things I remember about that bike was that it turned good and the suspension was remarkably nice, especially the forks. Now I wouldn't exactly consider it vintage, but I imagine that bike in the hands of a 1970's or 80's era Pro factory rider and they'd probably be able to ride that bike at an amazing speed compared to a lot of pretty good local semi Pro riders on 250f/450f's, but not the elites, then I think that stock 87 500 couldn't come close to comparing to let's say an 1979 RC500 or any of the other $100,000 exotic 2-stroke works bikes of the late 70's and early 80's, so I think those dudes in a 45 minute moto would give a lot of modern riders fits on their 450's Wish there was a National MX track that hadn't changed in the last 50 years that we could compare lap times of what the factory riders use to run in a National compared to what the local weekend hot shots run there. Kind of fun to think of how modern bikes might have closed the gap for us average people to maybe be able to keep those old greats in sight on their state of the art of the time vintage works bikes.
Yeah I misunderstood him, thought he was talking about modern elite riders
The mid 90s at a Alberta old times race, Rudi Zacsko jr raced the support expert class on a 73 CZ 400 for the win, with down pipe and stock suspension
Johnny O'Mara on a production based 125 (still a factory bike) passed world champ David Thorpe on a full works RC 500 on a hilly track. That shows how much more important the rider is than the bike, Maybe if O'Mara was on a scooter a local guy on a 450 might have a chance. Put O'Mara or any other elite rider on a factory machine with long travel suspension and the local guy has no chance. A rough track and 4 inches of suspension may be different,
My old brain remembers a story about a shootout or team try out back in the late '80's/early '90's when Roger hopped on a bike for a few laps. Whoever was timing him fucked it up and told him he was way off pace. Turns out he had really smoked everyone by a large margin.
I'm in the "fast is fast" camp.
I saw Kent Howerton, at a Big Springs Texas race track,
beat the Local Pros on a 1980 RM250T with one rear shock broke off. He still won. Fast is Fast.
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