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So you don’t think it can compete power wise or duration wise or both?
I think it’s just duration. Seems like radical power levels.
Of course power levels dont mean faster lap times, but it seems like the E power delivery definitely has some potential
They would have to change the race format to cater to E bikes. At fast levels anyway. Super interesting times, but doesn’t seem like a whole lot has changed since Bryan was riding an Alta.
Quite obvious, even to the casual observer, no?
Everyone knows he's not going to hit that - then or now.
She swings the other way, silly rabbit.
What the ???
IF THE NEXT THING OUT OF YOUR MOUTH IS, THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS SANTA, WE'RE GONNA HAVE A PROBLEM!!!!
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I'm sober as a judge. So, if you would, figure out where to 'start,' and proceed accordingly. There's so much wrong with my post? Okay, fair enough, then pick something I'm wrong on and tell me why it's so. It's a discussion panel after all, and I'd like to know.
My premise was thusly: an electric bike was recently allowed to compete professionally at the very top of the sport, and it all went just fine. A new electric bike has now come into the marketplace that is even better and is on the verge of being mass produced to an eager audience. The AMA, historically, has been very open to different powerplants being allowed to race in the professional arena (2T into 4t). So then, what would be the reason the AMA would find it easier to ban the Varg from competition than to allow it to compete? Horsepower? Can't be that, as there are no present limits. Homologation? No, they'll be long past that problem by then. Electronics and batteries? That's certainly the most obvious, but unless I'm mistaken, every bike except the Suzuki has a powerful battery and advanced electronics now. Soooo - what? No piston, no chance?
RSR is not the top of sport for one. It’s a one off event with a bunch of retired riders and a few current racers. And it’s also dead now as well.
current ama rules state the bike must be single cylinder displacement. So it’s not that they have to ban the bike. It doesn’t meet the requirements to race.
stark May get 400 bikes in the US but they also have to pay the fee to homologate it.
as far as batteries and electronics. None of the current bikes racing using the battery as a method of propulsion. So that comparison is ridiculous from the jump.
AMA already has that covered under their rules...
BUT AMA rules specify a maximum battery pack voltage of 60VDC...
The Stark Varg would not be legal to race in any AMA sanctioned event, it's battery pack voltage is 405VDC...
Honda/HRC disbanded the team that worked on their electric motocross bike, it looks like you will be buying a Stark!
Rules can and will be changed. Those regs are for kids bikes lol are you serious
Big manufacturers don't need to do the R&D when other smaller companies are doing it for them and praying for the day they get bought up. If they develop something good enough to appeal to the masses, they won't be able to scale up enough for it to make sense for them to do it themselves, and in comes the big boys who can write a check and handle the production and distribution of a ready to go product.
AMA OEM business members are eligible to sit on the AMA board, the AMA board decides the rules, which of the following companies will welcome Stark?
Hell bro, they're comparing golf pay outs to dirt berks. There's no bounds.
The rules were written to accommodate bikes sold by the manufacturers on the AMA board.
Bryan, what I'd like to ask you is; "Can you call the input device on the right end of the handlebar a "throttle"?
Will it be "Twisting the potentiometer" from here on out?
Hahahaha, sorry, couldn't resist.
Keep up your good work.
Lets not get too crazy. Moto community knows it as a throttle. It still makes sense. IMO, lets keep it that way.
What Pit didn't say was KTM doesn't have anything to compete with the Stark, and they don't understand how Stark's battery can achieve it's power density.
Okay, got it. Thanks.
So, my next question is about safety. Hypothetically, if the Stark execs were to call a meeting with the upper level of the AMA and demonstrate to them that their bike's transmission-less motor is safer to race than an ICE bike, do you think the AMA would just collectively shrug its shoulders, close the meeting, and not even consider changing the rules? Because I do not. I think they will feel IMMENSE pressure to allow the bike to compete, and sooner rather than later. My reasoning is simple: if, during the 2024 Supercross season, a privateer rider were to get gravely injured due to his bike hitting a false neutral or seizing up, that meeting's contents would become "discoverable," and the AMA could easily find itself in big, big, trouble. Its first obligation is to the safety of the riders, after all, and by denying that privateer the opportunity to race the Varg despite their prior knowledge of the bike's demonstrable ability to avoid the situation that created the injury, they will almost surely have exposed themselves to immense legal jeopardy. To say nothing of the extreme damage to its membership-dues-driven reputation. And if the rider involved was a top-level pro that Stark talked to about becoming a factory rider, but he had to decline their offer due to the bike not being legal? Oof.
Or am I wrong?
After the 2023 SX season, I am convinced the AMA/Feld has little to no interest in rider safety.
Pit Row
From Anton Wass' recent interview: Gypsy Tales podcast episode 338, May 16th 2023. Starting at time stamp 2:30.52 ( last 6 minutes, way after the Jiu-Jitsu talk
)
Transcripted to my best :
Anton ( 2:30:52) : " we wanna do some big things.. world records... ( laughter)... so we have some cool ideas there and.. ...
the next.. of course going racing .. it's gonna be fun as well ... see what happens when we line up on the gate..."
Jase ( 2:31:13) : " Yeah, where we at with that?" " it's been some challenges? "
Anton : " yeah, ( sigh ) there's been some real challenge... it's.. .. so national level it seems that we are basically able to race now globally , so, you know, amateur level, people.. it's seems that all countries have opened up now or are adjustable to open up so that customers can go and race locally and I think that can be very exciting and also very important.
But on the highest level, so.. you know, MXGP and AMA Supercross.... this kind of racing... we are not allowed to race ... Yet.. and ... my experience is that the big OEMs are pushing back, they don't want us to compete so... they're not letting us in...
you know... we even applied to part of like the ... European Motorcycle Association.. like any motorcycle manufacturer... haven't been let in, which is a bit strange.. and.. I think ..they.. you know... of course not everyone... but some of them are really like trying to block us ... from entering racing, which is... frustrating, it's kind of a (.????.) for doing something right, but I don't agree with their approach and you are afraid of competition, you know ... that... I don't think that's the way. if you have competition that might be better you accept it, you race it, lose, get better and win... you know ...that's the way to do it. In my mind at least. But yeah, we'll see. I think eventually it will open up. "
Jase ( 2:32:54) : "so what are the... I guess... what is some of the pushback or what would be the problem with letting stark race?"
Anton : " ( sigh ) There is no technical problem ...so we can adjust the bike.. we presented solutions that we.... of course we should not (???? ) at full power .... should race at same power of a 250 or 450...that's not a problem..."
Jase : " but how do you regulate that?"
Anton ( 2:33:23 ) : so we built ... in the functionalities, so that ... we are developing... we have not released yet.. a federation app, so that you as customer can block your bike for a certain amount of hours, so you can't go above a certain power.. and ...then your bike can be checked wirelessly by the federations .. they will have a specific app where they can see the history of your bike as well so if you.. you know...basically... the LED on the handlebar will be blinking in a specific light for a specific class ... it's very easy to see from a distance what is your limitation... and that's not possible to tamper with for any customer... but then the federations can also go in and see like... the actual data ... so if for some reason you would be able to tamper that which we don't understand how you could... they could still see the data ..so I think all of that is possible... it's more ..okay we need to change the rules to allow electric to compete against gas ... but ... everything else, the chassis dimensions are the same ... you know...we are ready to go out and play.. but.. I think it's more of... and if you have a world championship, how is it a world championship if the best ... the best are not allowed there? And maybe we are not the best..."
Jase " but you don't get a chance to prove it "
Anton : " Yes we don't get a chance to prove... that is not a world championship. Not to me at least. So I think it will change. So let's see one."
Jase: "So what is your idea of how much power you can have ? Let's say for 450 AMA Supercross like , how do you decide how much power you give the bike"
Anton ( 2:35:10) :" I think it should be same as what a factory bike has, so I mean.. stock power 450..."( interrupted )
Jase : " which means then that you gonna have to know what they produce..." ( interrupted )
Anton: "Yeah but I think the federation could like, okay.. take 3 factory bikes, put them on the dyno...see what power it makes, give us.. THAT is the limit.. you know, same of slightly below.. That's still fine.. and we are happy to go race on that."
Jase: " Yeah. Which seems fair... I just don't know what the other... I guess .. the criticism would be ..but... "
Anton: " So.. it's.. you know ... there is no logical reason. Besides it's different... if two strokes can race against four strokes.. like, do we need to create more noise? like, you know.. or.. fumes? ( laughter ) do you need gears on the bike? you know... there's no reason... I mean, you have ridden the bike hours, do you feel that you can race on it? "
Jase " I want to. " ( laughter ) " Please "
Anton " So I think it's only about updating the regulations and... I don't think uh... you know...
The big OEMs have a lot of saying in that ... but.. you know.. it shouldn't ... if it is racing on the highest level... I understand if you want a specific class where you can only race this specific bike... everyone should race the same bike.. okay that's something different but racing at the highest level you should have all ( ???? ) racing against each other. So I think we should be there as well."
( end of interview )-------
The hurdle is I do not see Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha or KTM letting the AMA or any third party obtaining data from their bikes because it could enable a competitor to have a glimpse into the data. ( torque/horsepower )The only way would be full transparency, all data open to all, but then no one would have an edge... not sure they would like that.
Plus what is to say one wouldn't tamper with a "special" power map for the dyno, like Volkswagen did for dieselgate ?
Great find ! Would you know the date when these specific rules were written?
You can filter just his comments. Click on his name and it will take you to all his posts and comments.
Bro...they've manufactured and shipped 1 bike..ONE!!!!...and we are already halfway through 2023...and you already have them suing the AMA, changing decades of implemented racing rules (rules which are created and enforced by their direct competition) and all that in time to be racing supercross in 2024? Come on back to reality.
The stark very well may be exactly what you think it will be, and it very well may change the world as you think it will...but it won't happen in the next 7-8 months.
You honestly sound like some slimy career politician speaking at a rally...."I'll balance the budget, cut everyones taxes, bring world peace, solve poverty, feed the world...all in year one!"...tone down the rhetoric a bit...
This says a lot...
"you know... we even applied to part of like the ... European Motorcycle Association.. like any motorcycle manufacturer... haven't been let in"
Fascinating interview. So Stark is willing to hobble the Varg's performance, cripple it if truth be told, to put it on par with the factory 450s, but the other OEMs are STILL too terrified of it to let it compete. My, such boldness, such courage. If nothing else, I now feel enlightened. This sport is run by manufacturers and governing bodies I wouldn't trust with my lunch money.
Yo - never mind, Soggy - I found out what I needed to know. I 'preciate ya.
Bite me.
Your wrong. The ama is not concerned about safety to that degree. And we don’t know enough to know if it’s safer. Stark has very little leverage in negotiations to allow them to race. . The major manufacturers hold all the leverage in allowing electric bikes to compete.
The rules were introduced in 2020, when OEM's started introducing kids electric bikes.
It’s really not that big of a secret, the standard at the moment is 21700 cells and that’s what everyone will be using for the time being. You have to remember these batteries are all made up of hundreds of individual cells made by major battery manufacturers, neither Stark nor KTM would ever produce their own battery cells. Everyone is basically at the same limit as far as power density is concerned, that’s why I find it humorous that people think Honda or another major manufacturer is going to somehow come out with something drastically better.
Yup. all good. I get that now. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Are you running a bit more air pressure than your x31 go-to? I believe the Pirelli MidSofts were developed around a 1Bar setting, and anything lower accelerates wear…Unfortunately, that’s also the cost of going lightweight. Looks like x31’s or Dunlop MX34’s in your future!
Side note: Really curious how the overall weight compares to your Alta once you have matching tires/tubes on them. Honda played this game with their CRF250R, running a two-ply 100/90-19 Pirelli MXMS to save weight, and it doesn’t quite add up to me.
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