Chad Reed Riding The 2023 KTM 300SX

#434
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#434 7/27/2022 8:49am
7/27/2022 8:49am
SmokinJoe439 wrote:
Must be pretty lonely out there on that edge or haven't you noticed you're the only spewing that bs.
#434 wrote:
After owning two 125/150s, two 250fs, a 450 and after putting at least 50 hours on each of them, I think I formed my opinion on...
After owning two 125/150s, two 250fs, a 450 and after putting at least 50 hours on each of them, I think I formed my opinion on a pretty solid base.
At least it’s a much more solid base than: „twostrokes are great and fourstrokes suck“.
SmokinJoe439 wrote:
How many of those 4 strokes have you done engine rebuilds on? Or do you just toss them around 100 hrs and buy new then proceed...
How many of those 4 strokes have you done engine rebuilds on? Or do you just toss them around 100 hrs and buy new then proceed to tell everyone how reliable they are.


So a fourstroke that runs a 100 hours without a rebuild isn’t considered reliable?
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Richy
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Richy 7/27/2022 8:58am
7/27/2022 8:58am Edited Date/Time 7/27/2022 9:49am
I'd say the modern 4 Strokes are impressively reliable, especially for race / performance machinery, it's no joke.

If they do let go, I can see the previous meme being pretty accurate, but it is what it is, stuff can blow up after a few hours if you're unlucky or go a few hundred if the stars align... But if it does...

I can appreciate both for different reasons.
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gt80rider
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gt80rider 7/27/2022 9:00am
7/27/2022 9:00am
When buying a smoker, the last thing I want to hear is "you can ride it just like your 4 stroke".... when buying a smoker, I want excitement, not play bike powerband... just imo...
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Broseph
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Broseph 7/27/2022 9:02am
7/27/2022 9:02am Edited Date/Time 7/27/2022 9:03am
#434 wrote:
After owning two 125/150s, two 250fs, a 450 and after putting at least 50 hours on each of them, I think I formed my opinion on...
After owning two 125/150s, two 250fs, a 450 and after putting at least 50 hours on each of them, I think I formed my opinion on a pretty solid base.
At least it’s a much more solid base than: „twostrokes are great and fourstrokes suck“.
SmokinJoe439 wrote:
How many of those 4 strokes have you done engine rebuilds on? Or do you just toss them around 100 hrs and buy new then proceed...
How many of those 4 strokes have you done engine rebuilds on? Or do you just toss them around 100 hrs and buy new then proceed to tell everyone how reliable they are.


#434 wrote:
So a fourstroke that runs a 100 hours without a rebuild isn’t considered reliable?
Why don’t you go get a quote from a local shop for a full engine rebuild on both a 250SX-F and a 250SX. The 4 stroke will cost twice as much.

Also, that powervalve governor you mention as an example of 2 stroke complexity is basically a lifetime component. Pretty much never wears out, so it doesn’t really compare to a $1500 valvetrain that cycles 100 times per second. It also doesn’t exist on these new FI KTMs, so not sure what your point was…
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Sr_Vet_Rider 7/27/2022 9:41am
7/27/2022 9:41am
SmokinJoe439 wrote:
How many of those 4 strokes have you done engine rebuilds on? Or do you just toss them around 100 hrs and buy new then proceed...
How many of those 4 strokes have you done engine rebuilds on? Or do you just toss them around 100 hrs and buy new then proceed to tell everyone how reliable they are.


#434 wrote:
So a fourstroke that runs a 100 hours without a rebuild isn’t considered reliable?
Broseph wrote:
Why don’t you go get a quote from a local shop for a full engine rebuild on both a 250SX-F and a 250SX. The 4 stroke...
Why don’t you go get a quote from a local shop for a full engine rebuild on both a 250SX-F and a 250SX. The 4 stroke will cost twice as much.

Also, that powervalve governor you mention as an example of 2 stroke complexity is basically a lifetime component. Pretty much never wears out, so it doesn’t really compare to a $1500 valvetrain that cycles 100 times per second. It also doesn’t exist on these new FI KTMs, so not sure what your point was…
BINGO
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Magoofan
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Magoofan 7/27/2022 9:41am
7/27/2022 9:41am
gt80rider wrote:
When buying a smoker, the last thing I want to hear is "you can ride it just like your 4 stroke".... when buying a smoker, I...
When buying a smoker, the last thing I want to hear is "you can ride it just like your 4 stroke".... when buying a smoker, I want excitement, not play bike powerband... just imo...
Seems a lot more Vital members disagree with your statement. based on my original comment Wink

I see absolutely nothing wrong with a 2-stroke that doesn't have a small window of usable powerband.

Cheaper bikes, cheaper maintenance/repair and fun factor......good for the sport in every sense.





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GrapeApe
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GrapeApe 7/27/2022 9:57am
7/27/2022 9:57am Edited Date/Time 7/27/2022 10:50am
I don't think people are disagreeing as much as face palming. The bike comes with two maps. If the "punchy" map isn't enough for you, you can get an ecu and program the power curve however you want.

It seems like two stroke guys will bitch about anything, including new two strokes.

Edit: meant to quote gt80 and Magoofan
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8tensolutions
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8tensolutions 7/27/2022 10:20am
7/27/2022 10:20am Edited Date/Time 7/27/2022 10:20am
Somehow this thread about a badass new bike has turned into a debate about 2 vs 4 strokes. Can't we just be pumped about technology improving and companies making badass bikes? If you don't like 4 strokes, don't buy one! Just like if you love cross fit, it doesn't mean everyone else has to love it too.

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wrc777
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wrc777 7/27/2022 10:32am
7/27/2022 10:32am
gt80rider wrote:
When buying a smoker, the last thing I want to hear is "you can ride it just like your 4 stroke".... when buying a smoker, I...
When buying a smoker, the last thing I want to hear is "you can ride it just like your 4 stroke".... when buying a smoker, I want excitement, not play bike powerband... just imo...
If it is anything like the current 300 it will hit as hard as you can turn the throttle. It can also be as smooth as you can turn the throttle.
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sandman768
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sandman768 7/27/2022 10:33am
7/27/2022 10:33am
2 stroke, 4 stroke….125,250,350,450… I ride them all….it’s fun to change up your bike every now & then….I”m on my dealers list for a new 300SX… I have had a few 300XC”s and loved them… Ktm group is pushing 2T development into the future and I want to experience it first hand…. This could be my do it all bike, GNCC, Moto, ect…. Hope my cone valve forks fit on it👍
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SoCalMX70
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SoCalMX70 7/27/2022 10:52am
7/27/2022 10:52am
Let's just focus on where we all agree:

MAKE THE DISPLACEMENT RULES MAKE SENSE AMA/FELD/MXSPORTS/WHOEVER HAS A SAY
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Broseph
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Broseph 7/27/2022 11:34am
7/27/2022 11:34am Edited Date/Time 7/27/2022 11:34am
SoCalMX70 wrote:
Let's just focus on where we all agree:

MAKE THE DISPLACEMENT RULES MAKE SENSE AMA/FELD/MXSPORTS/WHOEVER HAS A SAY
When asked, every one of those agencies will point to the other and say “It’s their rule, not ours!”.

All while the consumer/viewer continues to get screwed out of experiencing badass 2 strokes at the races.
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Landonious217 7/27/2022 11:37am
7/27/2022 11:37am
#434 wrote:
I don’t know the design of the electronic PV looks like but the old mechanical ones involved a lot of parts. The old 250SX engine has...
I don’t know the design of the electronic PV looks like but the old mechanical ones involved a lot of parts. The old 250SX engine has the same amount of parts as the SXF250 btw.
I get it, twostroke parts and rebuilding an engine are cheaper, but the argument that a two stroke is by definition cheaper and easier to maintain than a fourstroke just isn’t valid anymore today imho (I had both for years).
Fourstrokes, especially 450s, are super reliable today. Change the oil and the filter every 5 hours and don’t worry about the next 100.
The twostrokes I had needed twice the amount of fuel and airfilters, always had a dinged up pipe and constant fiddling with the carb. That’s why I never recommend a twostroke to anybody entering the sport.
SmokinJoe439 wrote:
Must be pretty lonely out there on that edge or haven't you noticed you're the only spewing that bs.
#434 wrote:
After owning two 125/150s, two 250fs, a 450 and after putting at least 50 hours on each of them, I think I formed my opinion on...
After owning two 125/150s, two 250fs, a 450 and after putting at least 50 hours on each of them, I think I formed my opinion on a pretty solid base.
At least it’s a much more solid base than: „twostrokes are great and fourstrokes suck“.
An accurate comparison is a 125 2T vs 150F 4T
250 vs 250F
500 vs 450F

The two stroke will win that cost and reliability comparison every single time.
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flat4
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flat4 7/27/2022 4:06pm
7/27/2022 4:06pm
Ob917 wrote:
I need to be talked out of buying one of these
That isn't gonna happen here. LOL
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Forty
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Forty 7/27/2022 6:43pm
7/27/2022 6:43pm
I called all KTM around the metro area and no one has any coming in. I’m gonna buy one if I can find one.

Will GG and Husky 300mx follow?
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wrc777
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wrc777 7/27/2022 9:05pm
7/27/2022 9:05pm Edited Date/Time 7/28/2022 3:46am
Forty wrote:
I called all KTM around the metro area and no one has any coming in. I’m gonna buy one if I can find one. Will GG...
I called all KTM around the metro area and no one has any coming in. I’m gonna buy one if I can find one.

Will GG and Husky 300mx follow?
No for husky and gg gets the new platform for 2024 but they don’t have a 300 mx bike now so I bet it stays ktm only.
183Matt
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183Matt 7/27/2022 9:11pm
7/27/2022 9:11pm
Ob917 wrote:
I need to be talked out of buying one of these
flat4 wrote:
That isn't gonna happen here. LOL
If you can ride one before you buy, do it. I’ve ridden all the new 23’s from KTM, Husky, and Gas Gas and can say the 300 is a really good bike, but for my style, I like the fuel injected 250 2 stroke better.
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#434
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#434 7/28/2022 1:10am
7/28/2022 1:10am
SmokinJoe439 wrote:
How many of those 4 strokes have you done engine rebuilds on? Or do you just toss them around 100 hrs and buy new then proceed...
How many of those 4 strokes have you done engine rebuilds on? Or do you just toss them around 100 hrs and buy new then proceed to tell everyone how reliable they are.


#434 wrote:
So a fourstroke that runs a 100 hours without a rebuild isn’t considered reliable?
Broseph wrote:
Why don’t you go get a quote from a local shop for a full engine rebuild on both a 250SX-F and a 250SX. The 4 stroke...
Why don’t you go get a quote from a local shop for a full engine rebuild on both a 250SX-F and a 250SX. The 4 stroke will cost twice as much.

Also, that powervalve governor you mention as an example of 2 stroke complexity is basically a lifetime component. Pretty much never wears out, so it doesn’t really compare to a $1500 valvetrain that cycles 100 times per second. It also doesn’t exist on these new FI KTMs, so not sure what your point was…
Oh sure, if a lot of stuff needs replacing the fourstroke is more expensive, no doubt.
I just found that fourstrokes, ridden at average joe speeds, tend to last a very long time. Change oil and air filters, check the valve train and maybe change the piston after 50 (in the sand) or 100 (hardpack) and that’s it.
The amount of time and money I put into my 125 was double compared to my 250f.
If you’re on a budget and wanna get 300 hours out of a bike, buy a twostroke. If you want a bike for two seasons buy a fourstroke.



However, back to topic: does anybody know if there’s going to be some kinda of mapping tool for the TBI twostrokes? With the electronic PV and the EFI the characteristic could be changed from nice trail bike to killer track bike with just the map switch.

Pit Row

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Sandusky26
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Sandusky26 7/28/2022 1:47am
7/28/2022 1:47am
I would have to replace pistons and clutches twice as much if I had a 250 2 stroke vs 450. No way am I running a top end 60 hours on a YZ250.

If the engine explodes, you’re fucked regardless.
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Gungadin
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Gungadin 7/28/2022 2:33am
7/28/2022 2:33am
#434 wrote:
Haha, exactly what I thought when I read the comment. How is a FI, electric start, electronic power valve two stroke any less complicated or less...
Haha, exactly what I thought when I read the comment.
How is a FI, electric start, electronic power valve two stroke any less complicated or less expensive than a fourstroke (RRP of the 300 is 10% lower)?

The cool thing about the 300 is that it’s a frikkin awesome bike which sounds great!
skypig wrote:
Four strokes have FI, electric start. Instead of a relatively simple power valve system, they have a cam, cam chain, valves, and associated valve gear (finger...
Four strokes have FI, electric start.
Instead of a relatively simple power valve system, they have a cam, cam chain, valves, and associated valve gear (finger followers, springs etc).

The new two strokes are less minimalist than in days gone by (like everything), but still less moving parts than a 4T, and less chance of an uneconomic blow up/repair.

Really it’s all semantics.

If you like 2 strokes, they are getting better and better.
I never knew I needed electric start on a 300 2T till the first time I hit the button.
Should be able to tune it with your phone, instead of the black art of “brass swapping”

Thank you KTM
#434 wrote:
I don’t know the design of the electronic PV looks like but the old mechanical ones involved a lot of parts. The old 250SX engine has...
I don’t know the design of the electronic PV looks like but the old mechanical ones involved a lot of parts. The old 250SX engine has the same amount of parts as the SXF250 btw.
I get it, twostroke parts and rebuilding an engine are cheaper, but the argument that a two stroke is by definition cheaper and easier to maintain than a fourstroke just isn’t valid anymore today imho (I had both for years).
Fourstrokes, especially 450s, are super reliable today. Change the oil and the filter every 5 hours and don’t worry about the next 100.
The twostrokes I had needed twice the amount of fuel and airfilters, always had a dinged up pipe and constant fiddling with the carb. That’s why I never recommend a twostroke to anybody entering the sport.
The smokers also add to their ownership cost by burning and blowing all their really expensive lubricant out the exhaust.
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Bearuno
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Bearuno 7/28/2022 2:43am
7/28/2022 2:43am Edited Date/Time 7/28/2022 2:43am
Gungadin wrote:
The smokers also add to their ownership cost by burning and blowing all their really expensive lubricant out the exhaust.
I've found it pretty much evens out if you are using high quality oil in a fourstroke, and 'dumping ' it regularly. I probably change it a bit early, but, even expensive oil, in Anything, is cheaper than a rebuild.
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CPR
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CPR 7/28/2022 5:40am
7/28/2022 5:40am
skypig wrote:
Four strokes have FI, electric start. Instead of a relatively simple power valve system, they have a cam, cam chain, valves, and associated valve gear (finger...
Four strokes have FI, electric start.
Instead of a relatively simple power valve system, they have a cam, cam chain, valves, and associated valve gear (finger followers, springs etc).

The new two strokes are less minimalist than in days gone by (like everything), but still less moving parts than a 4T, and less chance of an uneconomic blow up/repair.

Really it’s all semantics.

If you like 2 strokes, they are getting better and better.
I never knew I needed electric start on a 300 2T till the first time I hit the button.
Should be able to tune it with your phone, instead of the black art of “brass swapping”

Thank you KTM
#434 wrote:
I don’t know the design of the electronic PV looks like but the old mechanical ones involved a lot of parts. The old 250SX engine has...
I don’t know the design of the electronic PV looks like but the old mechanical ones involved a lot of parts. The old 250SX engine has the same amount of parts as the SXF250 btw.
I get it, twostroke parts and rebuilding an engine are cheaper, but the argument that a two stroke is by definition cheaper and easier to maintain than a fourstroke just isn’t valid anymore today imho (I had both for years).
Fourstrokes, especially 450s, are super reliable today. Change the oil and the filter every 5 hours and don’t worry about the next 100.
The twostrokes I had needed twice the amount of fuel and airfilters, always had a dinged up pipe and constant fiddling with the carb. That’s why I never recommend a twostroke to anybody entering the sport.
Gungadin wrote:
The smokers also add to their ownership cost by burning and blowing all their really expensive lubricant out the exhaust.
Only if you don’t use the thing on the right side of the handlebars
Gungadin
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Gungadin 7/28/2022 7:24am
7/28/2022 7:24am
I love Chad but that video was a fluffy advertorial for the 300 and full of implied criticism about peaky 2 strokes.

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Dirtysmile56 7/28/2022 8:30am
7/28/2022 8:30am
#434 wrote:
Haha, exactly what I thought when I read the comment. How is a FI, electric start, electronic power valve two stroke any less complicated or less...
Haha, exactly what I thought when I read the comment.
How is a FI, electric start, electronic power valve two stroke any less complicated or less expensive than a fourstroke (RRP of the 300 is 10% lower)?

The cool thing about the 300 is that it’s a frikkin awesome bike which sounds great!
skypig wrote:
Four strokes have FI, electric start. Instead of a relatively simple power valve system, they have a cam, cam chain, valves, and associated valve gear (finger...
Four strokes have FI, electric start.
Instead of a relatively simple power valve system, they have a cam, cam chain, valves, and associated valve gear (finger followers, springs etc).

The new two strokes are less minimalist than in days gone by (like everything), but still less moving parts than a 4T, and less chance of an uneconomic blow up/repair.

Really it’s all semantics.

If you like 2 strokes, they are getting better and better.
I never knew I needed electric start on a 300 2T till the first time I hit the button.
Should be able to tune it with your phone, instead of the black art of “brass swapping”

Thank you KTM
I ride and race both 2 and 4 stroke. I can't remember the last time I put a piston in my 450 but those 125's we run need a new one every few weeks. That fuel injected e start 300 is anything but cheap or affordable. Especially with dealers marking them up to $11k here in Oregon and a top end kit probably going in the $200-$250 range. For $11k I'll take a factory edition 450 and ride it for 100+ hours with minimum maintenance take a $2k hit and buy another one and do it all over. I do love the 2 strokes but have changed enough top ends in 37 years....
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Bearuno
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Bearuno 7/28/2022 8:34am
7/28/2022 8:34am
I do wonder if the production bike will come with that Muffler - it's definitely a Short little blighter.
1
Broseph
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Broseph 7/28/2022 8:36am
7/28/2022 8:36am Edited Date/Time 7/28/2022 8:37am
#434 wrote:
Haha, exactly what I thought when I read the comment. How is a FI, electric start, electronic power valve two stroke any less complicated or less...
Haha, exactly what I thought when I read the comment.
How is a FI, electric start, electronic power valve two stroke any less complicated or less expensive than a fourstroke (RRP of the 300 is 10% lower)?

The cool thing about the 300 is that it’s a frikkin awesome bike which sounds great!
skypig wrote:
Four strokes have FI, electric start. Instead of a relatively simple power valve system, they have a cam, cam chain, valves, and associated valve gear (finger...
Four strokes have FI, electric start.
Instead of a relatively simple power valve system, they have a cam, cam chain, valves, and associated valve gear (finger followers, springs etc).

The new two strokes are less minimalist than in days gone by (like everything), but still less moving parts than a 4T, and less chance of an uneconomic blow up/repair.

Really it’s all semantics.

If you like 2 strokes, they are getting better and better.
I never knew I needed electric start on a 300 2T till the first time I hit the button.
Should be able to tune it with your phone, instead of the black art of “brass swapping”

Thank you KTM
Dirtysmile56 wrote:
I ride and race both 2 and 4 stroke. I can't remember the last time I put a piston in my 450 but those 125's we...
I ride and race both 2 and 4 stroke. I can't remember the last time I put a piston in my 450 but those 125's we run need a new one every few weeks. That fuel injected e start 300 is anything but cheap or affordable. Especially with dealers marking them up to $11k here in Oregon and a top end kit probably going in the $200-$250 range. For $11k I'll take a factory edition 450 and ride it for 100+ hours with minimum maintenance take a $2k hit and buy another one and do it all over. I do love the 2 strokes but have changed enough top ends in 37 years....
300s are not 125s. You could do the same with a 300: Ride it for 100 hours with pretty much no maintenance, sell it (with better resale value than a 4 stroke if it’s an XC) and get another.
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wrc777
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wrc777 7/28/2022 8:50am
7/28/2022 8:50am
I am curious about this 450 that only loses $2k with 100 hours on it.
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skypig
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skypig 7/28/2022 6:37pm
7/28/2022 6:37pm
Bikes have never been “cheap”.
They are better now than ever performance wise. This comes at a price - both initial purchase, and running costs.

The 4 strokes are incredible and the 2 strokes are awesome - pay your money and make your choice.
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ShipLap
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ShipLap 7/29/2022 4:37am
7/29/2022 4:37am Edited Date/Time 7/29/2022 4:37am
Ob917 wrote:
I need to be talked out of buying one of these
I've had two of them. Best bike I ever owned.

Sorry.
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moto12356999 7/29/2022 5:25am
7/29/2022 5:25am
Magoofan wrote:
"you can literally ride it like a 4-sroke". All the more reason to bring back 2-strokes (FI) to racing. Lets dump the expensive, complicated and over-powered...
"you can literally ride it like a 4-sroke".

All the more reason to bring back 2-strokes (FI) to racing. Lets dump the expensive, complicated and over-powered 4-strokes.....

Man...that sound is beautiful.

Make racing great again.

All comes down to the jap 3 not being onboard after the California emission laws changed.

Years ago the decision was made the future was 4 stroke at pro level & I can’t see that ever changing before the electric era.

I race Ktm 250 sx & I’m as frustrated as anyone but it won’t change anything unfortunately.

Maybe KTM could arrange the their own breakaway 2 stroke series..
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