2023 KTM 300SX

Bruce372
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5/12/2022 5:55am
Because, hey, I cam fix it myself lol
1
5/12/2022 6:04am
I said in a previous thread that I can appreciate the technology and advancements the KTM group is making with the two stroke development, but I still prefer tinkering with a carb just because it’s a fun and rewarding task to me.

Super excited to get some ride reports out of this 300! Should be a great bike for the Vets who grew up on two strokes but enjoy the power of a modern 450, seems like a great compromise between the two. Sad to see no 150SX, wonder if they’ll bring it back at some point, maybe go back to a “true” bored and stroked 150 like how they made the 300SX a true 300.

New bodywork is growing on me, the spy photos of the factory bikes gave me a bad taste in my mouth. What a great time to be alive for these advancements in motocross!
15
mingham97
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5/12/2022 4:33pm
mingham97 wrote:
This thread was cool until it got to 2 strokes vs 4 strokes. Use them to benefit each other I reckon - I’d rather put 100...
This thread was cool until it got to 2 strokes vs 4 strokes. Use them to benefit each other I reckon
- I’d rather put 100 hours on a 2 stroke 300 than on my 250f
- It’ll make your 250f feel slow - improving your confidence (hopefully in proportion to improvements in skill level)
- 50 hours on a 300 will get you fitter than 50 hours on a 250f (cancel the gym membership)
- Because it’s 2023 and a fkn e-start fuel injected 300cc 2 stroke just got released
- If your missus owns your wallet then just explain that a 300SX will instantly “improve moto endurance and intensity”
Bruce372 wrote:
Isn't it crazy, we have lightweight injected 4 strokes, electric bikes coming, injected smokers with estart, so many options and people hark back to the days...
Isn't it crazy, we have lightweight injected 4 strokes, electric bikes coming, injected smokers with estart, so many options and people hark back to the days of late 90s two strokes witj shitty carbs and oil dripping down the swing arm with brakes that couldn't stop a wet fart and antiquated suspension
There will always be a reason for people to complain. From 8 years experience working in a bike shop, the ones complaining aren't really the ones buying the bikes anyway?
3
FGR01
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5/12/2022 8:56pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Because, hey, I cam fix it myself lol
Well, yes, that... but I'm not really worried about myself or the old guys that have money. I am worried about teenagers and early 20's guys... you know, the ones who 125's are really meant for. The ones who don't have the money for $10K bikes, $1,000 worth of ECU and remap, and the skills to troubleshoot or money to pay for a fix when all that electric gizmo stuff stops working one day.

We all complain about the sport of MX dying and that we need 125's as a cheap beginner bike and stepping stone for kids moving up from mini's. Making them unnecessarily complicated prices people out of the sport. I guess if only the KTM is EFI and the Husky, GG, and/or YZ are still carb'd then there's options all around.
7

The Shop

rjg
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5/12/2022 11:13pm Edited Date/Time 5/12/2022 11:17pm
I predict the 300sx to be the next 380sx. Its the same thing during a new time. Keep it for long term if you buy it. I could always be wrong.
4
Richy
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5/13/2022 12:25am
Bruce372 wrote:
Isn't it crazy, we have lightweight injected 4 strokes, electric bikes coming, injected smokers with estart, so many options and people hark back to the days...
Isn't it crazy, we have lightweight injected 4 strokes, electric bikes coming, injected smokers with estart, so many options and people hark back to the days of late 90s two strokes witj shitty carbs and oil dripping down the swing arm with brakes that couldn't stop a wet fart and antiquated suspension
You're right, but you know how it is, it's nostalgia, style, the feeling, the tinkering, all that good stuff... same reason classic cars get rebuilt instead of going for scrap, and why some would never drive anything but an ancient VW Golf while some wouldn't drive something 25 years old with a V8 up front and an axle out back. Even though faster, smoother, safer modern cars are available for the same or even less money.
Bruce372
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5/13/2022 1:49am
Bruce372 wrote:
Because, hey, I cam fix it myself lol
FGR01 wrote:
Well, yes, that... but I'm not really worried about myself or the old guys that have money. I am worried about teenagers and early 20's guys...
Well, yes, that... but I'm not really worried about myself or the old guys that have money. I am worried about teenagers and early 20's guys... you know, the ones who 125's are really meant for. The ones who don't have the money for $10K bikes, $1,000 worth of ECU and remap, and the skills to troubleshoot or money to pay for a fix when all that electric gizmo stuff stops working one day.

We all complain about the sport of MX dying and that we need 125's as a cheap beginner bike and stepping stone for kids moving up from mini's. Making them unnecessarily complicated prices people out of the sport. I guess if only the KTM is EFI and the Husky, GG, and/or YZ are still carb'd then there's options all around.
Yes, that is a big complaint about the new efi. If they nail it spot on from stock, then cool, IMO think that's better and more efficient than carbs. As you say, if it's efi is locked with bad setting, that doesn't help. It's a shame all bikes don't have a user setting interface.

As for the sport dying, well yes, but then again, everything alive is dying, including the planets resources. It's a great time for mx, so live in the moment and have fun as you can.

Hopefully the 150 will return, and people shouldn't get too deep about bore and stroke debate that was pushed by the mags wanting to sell their friends proprietary pistons, it's all about the porting imo.
2
#434
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5/13/2022 3:02am
Bruce372 wrote:
Because, hey, I cam fix it myself lol
FGR01 wrote:
Well, yes, that... but I'm not really worried about myself or the old guys that have money. I am worried about teenagers and early 20's guys...
Well, yes, that... but I'm not really worried about myself or the old guys that have money. I am worried about teenagers and early 20's guys... you know, the ones who 125's are really meant for. The ones who don't have the money for $10K bikes, $1,000 worth of ECU and remap, and the skills to troubleshoot or money to pay for a fix when all that electric gizmo stuff stops working one day.

We all complain about the sport of MX dying and that we need 125's as a cheap beginner bike and stepping stone for kids moving up from mini's. Making them unnecessarily complicated prices people out of the sport. I guess if only the KTM is EFI and the Husky, GG, and/or YZ are still carb'd then there's options all around.
Bruce372 wrote:
Yes, that is a big complaint about the new efi. If they nail it spot on from stock, then cool, IMO think that's better and more...
Yes, that is a big complaint about the new efi. If they nail it spot on from stock, then cool, IMO think that's better and more efficient than carbs. As you say, if it's efi is locked with bad setting, that doesn't help. It's a shame all bikes don't have a user setting interface.

As for the sport dying, well yes, but then again, everything alive is dying, including the planets resources. It's a great time for mx, so live in the moment and have fun as you can.

Hopefully the 150 will return, and people shouldn't get too deep about bore and stroke debate that was pushed by the mags wanting to sell their friends proprietary pistons, it's all about the porting imo.
Yes, I agree that a 125 should be a cheap entry level bike and should have a low retail price to encourage newcomers to the sport. However, I think that in the long run paying a higher price for EFI could be worth it. They’re never to lean and there will be no detonation which should make them last quite a bit longer. I think engine maintenance will decrease with Efi. Anybody here with carb and TPI experience? Also a carbed 125 needs a lot of fuel and maybe the efi will make it less thirsty.

And for somebody coming into the sport: no kid today will have any knowledge of carbs and most of their dads too, which leads to crappy running bikes and a lot less quality track time.

My 2017 SX125 and it’s Mikuni carb drove me nuts with how sensitive it was. I had a lot of days with more wrenching than riding and always gas on my hand. In the end I swapped it for a Keihin and now I‘m good. But that cost me also a few hundred bucks…

I think EFI-2T have only to downsides: higher retail price and more weight! Everything else will be a step forward.
1
Darrin Willis
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5/13/2022 6:08am
Is the stroke longer then the 250?
FGR01
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5/13/2022 6:25am
FGR01 wrote:
Well, yes, that... but I'm not really worried about myself or the old guys that have money. I am worried about teenagers and early 20's guys...
Well, yes, that... but I'm not really worried about myself or the old guys that have money. I am worried about teenagers and early 20's guys... you know, the ones who 125's are really meant for. The ones who don't have the money for $10K bikes, $1,000 worth of ECU and remap, and the skills to troubleshoot or money to pay for a fix when all that electric gizmo stuff stops working one day.

We all complain about the sport of MX dying and that we need 125's as a cheap beginner bike and stepping stone for kids moving up from mini's. Making them unnecessarily complicated prices people out of the sport. I guess if only the KTM is EFI and the Husky, GG, and/or YZ are still carb'd then there's options all around.
Bruce372 wrote:
Yes, that is a big complaint about the new efi. If they nail it spot on from stock, then cool, IMO think that's better and more...
Yes, that is a big complaint about the new efi. If they nail it spot on from stock, then cool, IMO think that's better and more efficient than carbs. As you say, if it's efi is locked with bad setting, that doesn't help. It's a shame all bikes don't have a user setting interface.

As for the sport dying, well yes, but then again, everything alive is dying, including the planets resources. It's a great time for mx, so live in the moment and have fun as you can.

Hopefully the 150 will return, and people shouldn't get too deep about bore and stroke debate that was pushed by the mags wanting to sell their friends proprietary pistons, it's all about the porting imo.
#434 wrote:
Yes, I agree that a 125 should be a cheap entry level bike and should have a low retail price to encourage newcomers to the sport...
Yes, I agree that a 125 should be a cheap entry level bike and should have a low retail price to encourage newcomers to the sport. However, I think that in the long run paying a higher price for EFI could be worth it. They’re never to lean and there will be no detonation which should make them last quite a bit longer. I think engine maintenance will decrease with Efi. Anybody here with carb and TPI experience? Also a carbed 125 needs a lot of fuel and maybe the efi will make it less thirsty.

And for somebody coming into the sport: no kid today will have any knowledge of carbs and most of their dads too, which leads to crappy running bikes and a lot less quality track time.

My 2017 SX125 and it’s Mikuni carb drove me nuts with how sensitive it was. I had a lot of days with more wrenching than riding and always gas on my hand. In the end I swapped it for a Keihin and now I‘m good. But that cost me also a few hundred bucks…

I think EFI-2T have only to downsides: higher retail price and more weight! Everything else will be a step forward.
KTM's track record with the TPI off road bikes does not make one too confident that they will nail the settings on their locked ECU on the first try.

I think people drastically over exaggerate the issues with jetting a carb. It's one of those running internet truths that just keeps getting passed on and amplified, to some extent. Also, one could say that KTM's track record with the Mikuni settings might be an indicator of the stock EFI settings on these new bikes! Same folks doing the the work? Hahaa

I wonder if KTM is going to spec only certain injector-approved 2-stroke oils for these bikes like they did for the TPI bikes? Anyone got experience running Castor 927 or Klotz through an injector? What happens when you want to raise compression, run high octane leaded fuel, share a can mixed at 32:1 with your son on an 85? Good luck with your locked ECU.

At the end of the day, I see the 250/300 EFI as pretty cool for the same old guys that buy an FE and put on cone valves and a Vortex and then sit in the pits admiring it over beers after 3 hard laps. And that's fine. The 125 is a little more baffling. 10 pounds on a 125 is not cool at all. That thing better be an absolute rocket, like head and shoulders better than the carb bike.
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FGR01
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5/13/2022 6:26am
Is the stroke longer then the 250?
covered earlier - no, same stroke.
sandman768
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5/13/2022 6:34am
I held off buying an XC300 due to the mixed reviews on the Tpi …Honda’s electronic powervalved engines were a step backwards or at least not enough R&D was done on them. It will be interesting to see what the first ride reviews are…it’s my understanding you still have to mix the oil in the gas? No oil pump?
#434
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5/13/2022 7:03am
FGR01 wrote:
KTM's track record with the TPI off road bikes does not make one too confident that they will nail the settings on their locked ECU on...
KTM's track record with the TPI off road bikes does not make one too confident that they will nail the settings on their locked ECU on the first try.

I think people drastically over exaggerate the issues with jetting a carb. It's one of those running internet truths that just keeps getting passed on and amplified, to some extent. Also, one could say that KTM's track record with the Mikuni settings might be an indicator of the stock EFI settings on these new bikes! Same folks doing the the work? Hahaa

I wonder if KTM is going to spec only certain injector-approved 2-stroke oils for these bikes like they did for the TPI bikes? Anyone got experience running Castor 927 or Klotz through an injector? What happens when you want to raise compression, run high octane leaded fuel, share a can mixed at 32:1 with your son on an 85? Good luck with your locked ECU.

At the end of the day, I see the 250/300 EFI as pretty cool for the same old guys that buy an FE and put on cone valves and a Vortex and then sit in the pits admiring it over beers after 3 hard laps. And that's fine. The 125 is a little more baffling. 10 pounds on a 125 is not cool at all. That thing better be an absolute rocket, like head and shoulders better than the carb bike.
I thought that was a problem of the oil pump not getting enough oil into the engine. Shouldn‘t be a problem with premix TBI.

Bro, have owned a Mikuni SX? The first 2-3 years the 125 was unrideable stock and almost impossible to jet. You had to change the slide and the whole jetting including the needle jet to get it running right.

Since the oil’s diluted in the gas, there won’t be the need for special oil.

The SX125 is back to the weight of the YZ125..
3
Bruce372
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5/13/2022 7:18am
Bruce372 wrote:
Yes, that is a big complaint about the new efi. If they nail it spot on from stock, then cool, IMO think that's better and more...
Yes, that is a big complaint about the new efi. If they nail it spot on from stock, then cool, IMO think that's better and more efficient than carbs. As you say, if it's efi is locked with bad setting, that doesn't help. It's a shame all bikes don't have a user setting interface.

As for the sport dying, well yes, but then again, everything alive is dying, including the planets resources. It's a great time for mx, so live in the moment and have fun as you can.

Hopefully the 150 will return, and people shouldn't get too deep about bore and stroke debate that was pushed by the mags wanting to sell their friends proprietary pistons, it's all about the porting imo.
#434 wrote:
Yes, I agree that a 125 should be a cheap entry level bike and should have a low retail price to encourage newcomers to the sport...
Yes, I agree that a 125 should be a cheap entry level bike and should have a low retail price to encourage newcomers to the sport. However, I think that in the long run paying a higher price for EFI could be worth it. They’re never to lean and there will be no detonation which should make them last quite a bit longer. I think engine maintenance will decrease with Efi. Anybody here with carb and TPI experience? Also a carbed 125 needs a lot of fuel and maybe the efi will make it less thirsty.

And for somebody coming into the sport: no kid today will have any knowledge of carbs and most of their dads too, which leads to crappy running bikes and a lot less quality track time.

My 2017 SX125 and it’s Mikuni carb drove me nuts with how sensitive it was. I had a lot of days with more wrenching than riding and always gas on my hand. In the end I swapped it for a Keihin and now I‘m good. But that cost me also a few hundred bucks…

I think EFI-2T have only to downsides: higher retail price and more weight! Everything else will be a step forward.
FGR01 wrote:
KTM's track record with the TPI off road bikes does not make one too confident that they will nail the settings on their locked ECU on...
KTM's track record with the TPI off road bikes does not make one too confident that they will nail the settings on their locked ECU on the first try.

I think people drastically over exaggerate the issues with jetting a carb. It's one of those running internet truths that just keeps getting passed on and amplified, to some extent. Also, one could say that KTM's track record with the Mikuni settings might be an indicator of the stock EFI settings on these new bikes! Same folks doing the the work? Hahaa

I wonder if KTM is going to spec only certain injector-approved 2-stroke oils for these bikes like they did for the TPI bikes? Anyone got experience running Castor 927 or Klotz through an injector? What happens when you want to raise compression, run high octane leaded fuel, share a can mixed at 32:1 with your son on an 85? Good luck with your locked ECU.

At the end of the day, I see the 250/300 EFI as pretty cool for the same old guys that buy an FE and put on cone valves and a Vortex and then sit in the pits admiring it over beers after 3 hard laps. And that's fine. The 125 is a little more baffling. 10 pounds on a 125 is not cool at all. That thing better be an absolute rocket, like head and shoulders better than the carb bike.
I agree, if the ecu is locked with tbe wrong Map, major problem.

What a disaster the mikuni was, great carb with bad settings that couldn't be jetted out. By that, I mean adjusted with just pilot, main and clip and not swapping slides, nozzles and all that.
1
FGR01
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5/13/2022 7:27am
#434 wrote:
I thought that was a problem of the oil pump not getting enough oil into the engine. Shouldn‘t be a problem with premix TBI. Bro, have...
I thought that was a problem of the oil pump not getting enough oil into the engine. Shouldn‘t be a problem with premix TBI.

Bro, have owned a Mikuni SX? The first 2-3 years the 125 was unrideable stock and almost impossible to jet. You had to change the slide and the whole jetting including the needle jet to get it running right.

Since the oil’s diluted in the gas, there won’t be the need for special oil.

The SX125 is back to the weight of the YZ125..
Yes, the inconsistent oiling and lack of oil to the top end on initial start up was one of the issues associated with oil injection... and hopefully that part is eliminated with this new TBI premix setup. However, there may still be limitations with what type of premix oil or ratios you can run through the injector. For example, Castor oil already has known separation issues at low temps even in a carb. Can't imagine KTM will be cool with clumpy castor oil at 32:1 going through an injector. Not a deal breaker, but might be a factor to be considered.

Yes, I have owned many Mikuni's on many bikes. No issues once jetted correctly. I'm sorry you had those problems. I guess you never found the KTM Mikuni jetting thread with simple solutions here on Vital. Also you'd see my posts all over it showing my TC125 rips with the Mikuni and does not require re-jetting over broad temp and elevation changes. Changing a slide is cheaper and easier than buying a new re-mapped ECU from some high priced tuner shop! hahaa

It's all good man. I hope these new bikes rip. I certainly won't be a first year buyer. Maybe year 2 or 3 if they just kill the carb'd bikes. And Ten pounds on a 125 is not cool, no matter how you say it!
1
wrc777
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5/13/2022 8:40am
The price went up about what I would have expected for a model year change. ~$200
1
#434
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5/13/2022 9:00am
#434 wrote:
I thought that was a problem of the oil pump not getting enough oil into the engine. Shouldn‘t be a problem with premix TBI. Bro, have...
I thought that was a problem of the oil pump not getting enough oil into the engine. Shouldn‘t be a problem with premix TBI.

Bro, have owned a Mikuni SX? The first 2-3 years the 125 was unrideable stock and almost impossible to jet. You had to change the slide and the whole jetting including the needle jet to get it running right.

Since the oil’s diluted in the gas, there won’t be the need for special oil.

The SX125 is back to the weight of the YZ125..
FGR01 wrote:
Yes, the inconsistent oiling and lack of oil to the top end on initial start up was one of the issues associated with oil injection... and...
Yes, the inconsistent oiling and lack of oil to the top end on initial start up was one of the issues associated with oil injection... and hopefully that part is eliminated with this new TBI premix setup. However, there may still be limitations with what type of premix oil or ratios you can run through the injector. For example, Castor oil already has known separation issues at low temps even in a carb. Can't imagine KTM will be cool with clumpy castor oil at 32:1 going through an injector. Not a deal breaker, but might be a factor to be considered.

Yes, I have owned many Mikuni's on many bikes. No issues once jetted correctly. I'm sorry you had those problems. I guess you never found the KTM Mikuni jetting thread with simple solutions here on Vital. Also you'd see my posts all over it showing my TC125 rips with the Mikuni and does not require re-jetting over broad temp and elevation changes. Changing a slide is cheaper and easier than buying a new re-mapped ECU from some high priced tuner shop! hahaa

It's all good man. I hope these new bikes rip. I certainly won't be a first year buyer. Maybe year 2 or 3 if they just kill the carb'd bikes. And Ten pounds on a 125 is not cool, no matter how you say it!
Ok! In Europe we don’t run quite as much oil. It’s unleaded and 1:40-1:50 with the 125.

Oh no, I used the thread and did all the stuff. It ran good! I just found a cheap used Keihin and put it on the bike. I like it more than the Mikuni because it picks up better and has a better response from quarter throttle. And it’s still less sensitive to temperature and altitude changes.

No question: 10 lbs is a lot (or too much) and it’s a little sad that the bike goes from crazy light to light.
Bearuno
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5/13/2022 9:05am
Are the 4 stroke SX ECUs locked?

If not, for the life of me I can't see why the 2 stroke SX system would be locked.

Both types are Off Highway vehicles, not subject to any EPA rules, as far as I know.
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wrc777
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5/13/2022 9:14am Edited Date/Time 5/13/2022 9:15am
Bearuno wrote:
Are the 4 stroke SX ECUs locked? If not, for the life of me I can't see why the 2 stroke SX system would be locked...
Are the 4 stroke SX ECUs locked?

If not, for the life of me I can't see why the 2 stroke SX system would be locked.

Both types are Off Highway vehicles, not subject to any EPA rules, as far as I know.
Yes they have been for a couple of years. Ktm seems to cover some high hour warranty issues and a locked ecu gives them some confidence that any issue was ktms fault and not the end user playing with the ecu.
1
5/13/2022 9:30am
FGR01 wrote:
KTM's track record with the TPI off road bikes does not make one too confident that they will nail the settings on their locked ECU on...
KTM's track record with the TPI off road bikes does not make one too confident that they will nail the settings on their locked ECU on the first try.

I think people drastically over exaggerate the issues with jetting a carb. It's one of those running internet truths that just keeps getting passed on and amplified, to some extent. Also, one could say that KTM's track record with the Mikuni settings might be an indicator of the stock EFI settings on these new bikes! Same folks doing the the work? Hahaa

I wonder if KTM is going to spec only certain injector-approved 2-stroke oils for these bikes like they did for the TPI bikes? Anyone got experience running Castor 927 or Klotz through an injector? What happens when you want to raise compression, run high octane leaded fuel, share a can mixed at 32:1 with your son on an 85? Good luck with your locked ECU.

At the end of the day, I see the 250/300 EFI as pretty cool for the same old guys that buy an FE and put on cone valves and a Vortex and then sit in the pits admiring it over beers after 3 hard laps. And that's fine. The 125 is a little more baffling. 10 pounds on a 125 is not cool at all. That thing better be an absolute rocket, like head and shoulders better than the carb bike.
Took me quite a while before I was happy with my Mikunis, got a keihin to “test” and never put the mikuni back on. But I also have owned bikes that came with keihins my whole life.

Been running klotz through TBI snowmobiles for over a decade, their snowmobile and jet ski blend are injection specific. I run klotz Even on high boost 200hp+ modified sleds, I often use the Mx blends when I’m out of their sled specific blend. I’ve also dumped blends all and 927 in before also, never any issues. In the sled world you have to run aftermarket fuel controller “box” when going to high compression, and in some cases even when you add a pipe. The snowmobile fuel management systems are a bit more complex but have locked ecu’s also. Get expensive in a hurry, but they also run very very well stock.

I’m planning on buying a 250sx but will be keeping my carb’d one as I expect it to take a season before I get the new TBI working how I like it. I’m going into it knowing I’ll need a remap or aftermarket ecu. Locked ecu’s are kind of ridiculous on a closed course race bike IMO.

I think itd be cool if they left the gas gas carb’d but gave it the chassis updates. They’d have all the user groups covered that way.
2
Bearuno
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5/13/2022 9:40am
So, people are set to bitching about such a set up being on the 2 stroke, yet I rarely see much bitching about the same type of thing being on the 4 strokes. Classic.

It's strange that other manufacturers haven't a set up like Yamahas Wi Fi phone tuning app. Yes, most other companies set ups allow tuning with Plugs, or via computer, or KTMs bar mounted unit, but nothing is as simple, or as free as Yamahas set up ( which I know has limits - but I've ridden them with a variety of maps, and it's amazing the changes that can be made).. Perhaps, somehow, they've a patent on it, but I've not seen such a claim or notes on it being so. Weird.

I'd guess companies like JD etc will come out with 'piggy back' modules, and, of course, companies will be doing complete ECU replacements.
5/13/2022 10:29am
I placed my deposit today and I’m #2 in line at Munn Racing for one. He says he has a September delivery date.
5
FGR01
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5/13/2022 10:48am
Bearuno wrote:
So, people are set to bitching about such a set up being on the 2 stroke, yet I rarely see much bitching about the same type...
So, people are set to bitching about such a set up being on the 2 stroke, yet I rarely see much bitching about the same type of thing being on the 4 strokes. Classic.

It's strange that other manufacturers haven't a set up like Yamahas Wi Fi phone tuning app. Yes, most other companies set ups allow tuning with Plugs, or via computer, or KTMs bar mounted unit, but nothing is as simple, or as free as Yamahas set up ( which I know has limits - but I've ridden them with a variety of maps, and it's amazing the changes that can be made).. Perhaps, somehow, they've a patent on it, but I've not seen such a claim or notes on it being so. Weird.

I'd guess companies like JD etc will come out with 'piggy back' modules, and, of course, companies will be doing complete ECU replacements.
"So, people are set to bitching about such a set up being on the 2 stroke, yet I rarely see much bitching about the same type of thing being on the 4 strokes. Classic." - well, I am at least fairly consistent in this respect. I had a 2007 CRF450 that ran flawlessly with a carb. No bog, no issues whatsoever. Bike ripped and ran perfect all day, every day from sea level to 7,000ft. I saw absolutely no need for EFI on it. Then Honda released the 2009 CRF450 with EFI and it had lots of EFI related issues. Honda still had this same issue getting stock EFI settings correct even in 2021.

I will say, I see EFI as more of a natural fit for 4-strokes than for 2-strokes. The carbs on 4-strokes were a lot more complicated and difficult to work on for the average guy. 4-strokes have more compression and are more difficult to start, EFI eases that. 4-strokes have the engine braking issue which can be tuned to suit with mapping. Electric start is a godsend on a 4-stroke, so you already have a battery there.... None of this applies to a 2-stroke, so not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
2
1
swordfish
Posts
1950
Joined
9/2/2021
Location
Somewhere, AB, CA
5/13/2022 11:03am
Bearuno wrote:
Are the 4 stroke SX ECUs locked? If not, for the life of me I can't see why the 2 stroke SX system would be locked...
Are the 4 stroke SX ECUs locked?

If not, for the life of me I can't see why the 2 stroke SX system would be locked.

Both types are Off Highway vehicles, not subject to any EPA rules, as far as I know.
wrc777 wrote:
Yes they have been for a couple of years. Ktm seems to cover some high hour warranty issues and a locked ecu gives them some confidence...
Yes they have been for a couple of years. Ktm seems to cover some high hour warranty issues and a locked ecu gives them some confidence that any issue was ktms fault and not the end user playing with the ecu.
You can get a tune for TPi for $225. Even cheaper if you have access to maps. The current ECU can be over written/flashed. .
swordfish
Posts
1950
Joined
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Location
Somewhere, AB, CA
5/13/2022 11:04am
#434 wrote:
I thought that was a problem of the oil pump not getting enough oil into the engine. Shouldn‘t be a problem with premix TBI. Bro, have...
I thought that was a problem of the oil pump not getting enough oil into the engine. Shouldn‘t be a problem with premix TBI.

Bro, have owned a Mikuni SX? The first 2-3 years the 125 was unrideable stock and almost impossible to jet. You had to change the slide and the whole jetting including the needle jet to get it running right.

Since the oil’s diluted in the gas, there won’t be the need for special oil.

The SX125 is back to the weight of the YZ125..
FGR01 wrote:
Yes, the inconsistent oiling and lack of oil to the top end on initial start up was one of the issues associated with oil injection... and...
Yes, the inconsistent oiling and lack of oil to the top end on initial start up was one of the issues associated with oil injection... and hopefully that part is eliminated with this new TBI premix setup. However, there may still be limitations with what type of premix oil or ratios you can run through the injector. For example, Castor oil already has known separation issues at low temps even in a carb. Can't imagine KTM will be cool with clumpy castor oil at 32:1 going through an injector. Not a deal breaker, but might be a factor to be considered.

Yes, I have owned many Mikuni's on many bikes. No issues once jetted correctly. I'm sorry you had those problems. I guess you never found the KTM Mikuni jetting thread with simple solutions here on Vital. Also you'd see my posts all over it showing my TC125 rips with the Mikuni and does not require re-jetting over broad temp and elevation changes. Changing a slide is cheaper and easier than buying a new re-mapped ECU from some high priced tuner shop! hahaa

It's all good man. I hope these new bikes rip. I certainly won't be a first year buyer. Maybe year 2 or 3 if they just kill the carb'd bikes. And Ten pounds on a 125 is not cool, no matter how you say it!
Not a big issue, plenty of oil being pumped.
Sandusky26
Posts
3516
Joined
7/28/2021
Location
Eastern, NC, USA
5/13/2022 12:22pm
Bearuno wrote:
So, people are set to bitching about such a set up being on the 2 stroke, yet I rarely see much bitching about the same type...
So, people are set to bitching about such a set up being on the 2 stroke, yet I rarely see much bitching about the same type of thing being on the 4 strokes. Classic.

It's strange that other manufacturers haven't a set up like Yamahas Wi Fi phone tuning app. Yes, most other companies set ups allow tuning with Plugs, or via computer, or KTMs bar mounted unit, but nothing is as simple, or as free as Yamahas set up ( which I know has limits - but I've ridden them with a variety of maps, and it's amazing the changes that can be made).. Perhaps, somehow, they've a patent on it, but I've not seen such a claim or notes on it being so. Weird.

I'd guess companies like JD etc will come out with 'piggy back' modules, and, of course, companies will be doing complete ECU replacements.
FGR01 wrote:
"So, people are set to bitching about such a set up being on the 2 stroke, yet I rarely see much bitching about the same type...
"So, people are set to bitching about such a set up being on the 2 stroke, yet I rarely see much bitching about the same type of thing being on the 4 strokes. Classic." - well, I am at least fairly consistent in this respect. I had a 2007 CRF450 that ran flawlessly with a carb. No bog, no issues whatsoever. Bike ripped and ran perfect all day, every day from sea level to 7,000ft. I saw absolutely no need for EFI on it. Then Honda released the 2009 CRF450 with EFI and it had lots of EFI related issues. Honda still had this same issue getting stock EFI settings correct even in 2021.

I will say, I see EFI as more of a natural fit for 4-strokes than for 2-strokes. The carbs on 4-strokes were a lot more complicated and difficult to work on for the average guy. 4-strokes have more compression and are more difficult to start, EFI eases that. 4-strokes have the engine braking issue which can be tuned to suit with mapping. Electric start is a godsend on a 4-stroke, so you already have a battery there.... None of this applies to a 2-stroke, so not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
I agree. I don’t see this new bike being better than a well set up carbureted bike.
1
5/13/2022 12:59pm
mingham97 wrote:
This thread was cool until it got to 2 strokes vs 4 strokes. Use them to benefit each other I reckon - I’d rather put 100...
This thread was cool until it got to 2 strokes vs 4 strokes. Use them to benefit each other I reckon
- I’d rather put 100 hours on a 2 stroke 300 than on my 250f
- It’ll make your 250f feel slow - improving your confidence (hopefully in proportion to improvements in skill level)
- 50 hours on a 300 will get you fitter than 50 hours on a 250f (cancel the gym membership)
- Because it’s 2023 and a fkn e-start fuel injected 300cc 2 stroke just got released
- If your missus owns your wallet then just explain that a 300SX will instantly “improve moto endurance and intensity”
Bruce372 wrote:
Isn't it crazy, we have lightweight injected 4 strokes, electric bikes coming, injected smokers with estart, so many options and people hark back to the days...
Isn't it crazy, we have lightweight injected 4 strokes, electric bikes coming, injected smokers with estart, so many options and people hark back to the days of late 90s two strokes witj shitty carbs and oil dripping down the swing arm with brakes that couldn't stop a wet fart and antiquated suspension
Yep, rode my '04 RM 250 last Saturday with stock brakes. Compared to my '19 350 SXF, light years between stoppers.
That and spooge on the silencer. I will say that the Zook is still F A F!
#434
Posts
1913
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
5/13/2022 2:27pm
Bearuno wrote:
So, people are set to bitching about such a set up being on the 2 stroke, yet I rarely see much bitching about the same type...
So, people are set to bitching about such a set up being on the 2 stroke, yet I rarely see much bitching about the same type of thing being on the 4 strokes. Classic.

It's strange that other manufacturers haven't a set up like Yamahas Wi Fi phone tuning app. Yes, most other companies set ups allow tuning with Plugs, or via computer, or KTMs bar mounted unit, but nothing is as simple, or as free as Yamahas set up ( which I know has limits - but I've ridden them with a variety of maps, and it's amazing the changes that can be made).. Perhaps, somehow, they've a patent on it, but I've not seen such a claim or notes on it being so. Weird.

I'd guess companies like JD etc will come out with 'piggy back' modules, and, of course, companies will be doing complete ECU replacements.
FGR01 wrote:
"So, people are set to bitching about such a set up being on the 2 stroke, yet I rarely see much bitching about the same type...
"So, people are set to bitching about such a set up being on the 2 stroke, yet I rarely see much bitching about the same type of thing being on the 4 strokes. Classic." - well, I am at least fairly consistent in this respect. I had a 2007 CRF450 that ran flawlessly with a carb. No bog, no issues whatsoever. Bike ripped and ran perfect all day, every day from sea level to 7,000ft. I saw absolutely no need for EFI on it. Then Honda released the 2009 CRF450 with EFI and it had lots of EFI related issues. Honda still had this same issue getting stock EFI settings correct even in 2021.

I will say, I see EFI as more of a natural fit for 4-strokes than for 2-strokes. The carbs on 4-strokes were a lot more complicated and difficult to work on for the average guy. 4-strokes have more compression and are more difficult to start, EFI eases that. 4-strokes have the engine braking issue which can be tuned to suit with mapping. Electric start is a godsend on a 4-stroke, so you already have a battery there.... None of this applies to a 2-stroke, so not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
Sandusky26 wrote:
I agree. I don’t see this new bike being better than a well set up carbureted bike.
If done right, efi can be better than the best carburetor. A carb can‘t adjust e.g. to the momentary (water) temperature of the engine. Another problem with two strokes is that they lean out if held wide open for a few seconds. The efi can adjust to that by measuring the crank case pressure. They could have different mappings for each gear and could also adjust the timing of the power valve parallel to the efi mapping.
However, only IF done right.
5/13/2022 2:37pm
Question,
Did people bitch and moan with the introduction of the Reed valve?
yz133rider
Posts
5027
Joined
8/1/2013
Location
Avondale, PA, USA
5/13/2022 3:37pm
FGR01 wrote:
"So, people are set to bitching about such a set up being on the 2 stroke, yet I rarely see much bitching about the same type...
"So, people are set to bitching about such a set up being on the 2 stroke, yet I rarely see much bitching about the same type of thing being on the 4 strokes. Classic." - well, I am at least fairly consistent in this respect. I had a 2007 CRF450 that ran flawlessly with a carb. No bog, no issues whatsoever. Bike ripped and ran perfect all day, every day from sea level to 7,000ft. I saw absolutely no need for EFI on it. Then Honda released the 2009 CRF450 with EFI and it had lots of EFI related issues. Honda still had this same issue getting stock EFI settings correct even in 2021.

I will say, I see EFI as more of a natural fit for 4-strokes than for 2-strokes. The carbs on 4-strokes were a lot more complicated and difficult to work on for the average guy. 4-strokes have more compression and are more difficult to start, EFI eases that. 4-strokes have the engine braking issue which can be tuned to suit with mapping. Electric start is a godsend on a 4-stroke, so you already have a battery there.... None of this applies to a 2-stroke, so not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
Sandusky26 wrote:
I agree. I don’t see this new bike being better than a well set up carbureted bike.
#434 wrote:
If done right, efi can be better than the best carburetor. A carb can‘t adjust e.g. to the momentary (water) temperature of the engine. Another problem...
If done right, efi can be better than the best carburetor. A carb can‘t adjust e.g. to the momentary (water) temperature of the engine. Another problem with two strokes is that they lean out if held wide open for a few seconds. The efi can adjust to that by measuring the crank case pressure. They could have different mappings for each gear and could also adjust the timing of the power valve parallel to the efi mapping.
However, only IF done right.
The efi on dirtbikes doesn’t adjust for anything. They don’t have the sensors to measure, temperature, knock, humidity, load, anything like that.

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