Will Webb be docked a position

RG1
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1/30/2022 2:19am
Mit12 wrote:
He actually lost time to the rider behind him so he did not gain an advantage. No need to dock him.
It always baffles me how many people think this is a valid point. It doesn’t matter that he lost time, he crashed, of course he lost time, he didn’t lose as much time as he should have, or at least he made life a lot easier for himself by skipping the whoop section. He still gained an advantage.
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Alan Dove
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1/30/2022 2:24am Edited Date/Time 1/30/2022 2:26am
mx313 wrote:
Ama officials cannot guess or make predictions of a scenario. Who knows how quick webb would have got thru them. They can only use facts for...
Ama officials cannot guess or make predictions of a scenario. Who knows how quick webb would have got thru them. They can only use facts for rulings.
When webb started riding again. Wilson was only half way into the corner.
After the whoops Wilson was right on webb.
So facts show webb lost time in that section. So he did not gain an advantage.
Webb also rode in a slow and safe speed off track.
The fact that riders have crashed in the whoops demonstrates that there is a demonstrable risk in riding them. That's a fact. Thus Webb reduced his risk of crashing in the whoops by not re-entering when was practically possible, and skipping them.


4.15

i. A rider leaving the course may continue the race by properly
re-entering the track at the closest safe point to where the rider
left the course without gaining an advantage.

1. While off course, the rider may not accelerate in an unsafe
manner as deemed by Race Direction.

2. If a rider accelerates in an unsafe manner while off course
or cuts part of the racecourse, the rider may be determined
to have gained an advantage without gaining a position.

3. It will be the duty of Race Direction to make the
determination as to whether a rider gained an advantage by
leaving the racecourse and re-entering


Webb indisputably cut part of the racecourse, and this may be determined as gaining an advantage without gaining a position. It doesn't matter than he didn't gas it. Not doing the whoops lowers your risk of crashing, willfully cutting the racecourse would warrant sanction under the current regulations in my view.

The theoretical lost time argument isn't really valid.
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CPR
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1/30/2022 2:24am Edited Date/Time 1/30/2022 2:29am
mx313 wrote:
No your interpretation of the rule is incorrect. 12. Failure to re-enter the track at a point as close as practical to the point at which...
No your interpretation of the rule is incorrect.

12. Failure to re-enter the track at a point as close as practical to the point at which the rider left the track; and in so doing gaining an unfair advantage.

That's not 2 key points that's just 1.
And in doing so.
The rule only applies if u make an advantage.
If u fail to re-enter the track at a point as close and don't gain an advantage it negates the whole rule.

U can ride whole sections along side the track as long as u don't make an advantage.
CPR wrote:
So if Webb had of stayed on the track and gone through the whoops, would he likely have been in front of, or behind the track...
So if Webb had of stayed on the track and gone through the whoops, would he likely have been in front of, or behind the track position he obtained by choosing to ride alongside the track?
mx313 wrote:
Ama officials cannot guess or make predictions of a scenario. Who knows how quick webb would have got thru them. They can only use facts for...
Ama officials cannot guess or make predictions of a scenario. Who knows how quick webb would have got thru them. They can only use facts for rulings.
When webb started riding again. Wilson was only half way into the corner.
After the whoops Wilson was right on webb.
So facts show webb lost time in that section. So he did not gain an advantage.
Webb also rode in a slow and safe speed off track.
Cannot guess? Judgement calls are their role, and they make them all the time. Not consistently of course.
Did Webb gain track position by not riding through the whoops? Even a blind man’s Labrador knows he did. Is gaining track position, ( without gaining place), gaining advantage? That doesn’t even need an answer.

I must say though, I would have been very surprised if Webb was penalised. The outcome of this question was, unfortunately, never in doubt.
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mx313
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1/30/2022 2:26am
USA wrote:
Yep, that's cheating. There was no reason for him to skip the whoops other than to gain an advantage. Hell, friese should have skipped the whoops...
Yep, that's cheating. There was no reason for him to skip the whoops other than to gain an advantage.

Hell, friese should have skipped the whoops the last two laps. If he just stayed in second, there wouldn't have been any reason for the AMA to dock him.
Motofinne wrote:
Yup, cheated. I haven't checked Twitter and the industry peoples tweets but i would've imagined that at least Star Racing Yamaha would've protested Webb? If i'm...
Yup, cheated. I haven't checked Twitter and the industry peoples tweets but i would've imagined that at least Star Racing Yamaha would've protested Webb?

If i'm a team manager for any of the other top teams i would've done it.
USA wrote:
I cant find a difference between this incident and Savatgy's incident from 2018. Both riders crashed, got up, chose to skip a section, and continued with...
I cant find a difference between this incident and Savatgy's incident from 2018. Both riders crashed, got up, chose to skip a section, and continued with the race.

The only different is the ruling. Color me surprised, inconsistency from the AMA.
https://youtu.be/fQeyJNPsmHE

Wow u cannot see a difference between this incident and webb.
So this is the difference.
Savagty crashes infront of the Yamaha #45 Mitchell Harrison?
He rejoins in the next lane near Harrison. The difference is the lane savagty crashes in and the point of his crash. About 4 bikes pass that point. Therefore he should rejoin behind that 4th bike.
He was officially passed by those 4 riders then passed them back by cutting the track.
If he waited for that 4th bike to pass him in the next lane then proceeded to ride he wouldn't get penalised.
As for webb he was never passed.
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The Shop

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1/30/2022 2:29am
Motofinne wrote:
Yup, cheated. I haven't checked Twitter and the industry peoples tweets but i would've imagined that at least Star Racing Yamaha would've protested Webb? If i'm...
Yup, cheated. I haven't checked Twitter and the industry peoples tweets but i would've imagined that at least Star Racing Yamaha would've protested Webb?

If i'm a team manager for any of the other top teams i would've done it.
USA wrote:
I cant find a difference between this incident and Savatgy's incident from 2018. Both riders crashed, got up, chose to skip a section, and continued with...
I cant find a difference between this incident and Savatgy's incident from 2018. Both riders crashed, got up, chose to skip a section, and continued with the race.

The only different is the ruling. Color me surprised, inconsistency from the AMA.
mx313 wrote:
[url=https://youtu.be/fQeyJNPsmHE]https://youtu.be/fQeyJNPsmHE[/url] Wow u cannot see a difference between this incident and webb. So this is the difference. Savagty crashes infront of the Yamaha #45 Mitchell Harrison...
https://youtu.be/fQeyJNPsmHE

Wow u cannot see a difference between this incident and webb.
So this is the difference.
Savagty crashes infront of the Yamaha #45 Mitchell Harrison?
He rejoins in the next lane near Harrison. The difference is the lane savagty crashes in and the point of his crash. About 4 bikes pass that point. Therefore he should rejoin behind that 4th bike.
He was officially passed by those 4 riders then passed them back by cutting the track.
If he waited for that 4th bike to pass him in the next lane then proceeded to ride he wouldn't get penalised.
As for webb he was never passed.
Thank you, this illustrates my point much better. Webb had absolutely no reason to cut the whoops. Savatgy was already off the lane.
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mx313
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1/30/2022 2:38am
Mit12 wrote:
He actually lost time to the rider behind him so he did not gain an advantage. No need to dock him.
RG1 wrote:
It always baffles me how many people think this is a valid point. It doesn’t matter that he lost time, he crashed, of course he lost...
It always baffles me how many people think this is a valid point. It doesn’t matter that he lost time, he crashed, of course he lost time, he didn’t lose as much time as he should have, or at least he made life a lot easier for himself by skipping the whoop section. He still gained an advantage.
Losing time from the crash and cutting the track to make it up is an offence and not a valid point.
But from the point webb remounted is when the ama would look at it. And Wilson was only just coming into the corner. Webb skips the whoops and Wilson is right on him. By timing and scoring webb lost time by skipping the whoops.
Ama cannot try and predict how fast he would have got thru them coz that answer is unknown and only a guess.
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mx313
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1/30/2022 2:40am
USA wrote:
I cant find a difference between this incident and Savatgy's incident from 2018. Both riders crashed, got up, chose to skip a section, and continued with...
I cant find a difference between this incident and Savatgy's incident from 2018. Both riders crashed, got up, chose to skip a section, and continued with the race.

The only different is the ruling. Color me surprised, inconsistency from the AMA.
mx313 wrote:
[url=https://youtu.be/fQeyJNPsmHE]https://youtu.be/fQeyJNPsmHE[/url] Wow u cannot see a difference between this incident and webb. So this is the difference. Savagty crashes infront of the Yamaha #45 Mitchell Harrison...
https://youtu.be/fQeyJNPsmHE

Wow u cannot see a difference between this incident and webb.
So this is the difference.
Savagty crashes infront of the Yamaha #45 Mitchell Harrison?
He rejoins in the next lane near Harrison. The difference is the lane savagty crashes in and the point of his crash. About 4 bikes pass that point. Therefore he should rejoin behind that 4th bike.
He was officially passed by those 4 riders then passed them back by cutting the track.
If he waited for that 4th bike to pass him in the next lane then proceeded to ride he wouldn't get penalised.
As for webb he was never passed.
USA wrote:
Thank you, this illustrates my point much better. Webb had absolutely no reason to cut the whoops. Savatgy was already off the lane.
😂😂 4 bikes pass him while he is on the ground.
gregyou
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1/30/2022 3:24am
It’s Ktm nothing will be done
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Alan Dove
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1/30/2022 3:28am
mx313 wrote:
Losing time from the crash and cutting the track to make it up is an offence and not a valid point. But from the point webb...
Losing time from the crash and cutting the track to make it up is an offence and not a valid point.
But from the point webb remounted is when the ama would look at it. And Wilson was only just coming into the corner. Webb skips the whoops and Wilson is right on him. By timing and scoring webb lost time by skipping the whoops.
Ama cannot try and predict how fast he would have got thru them coz that answer is unknown and only a guess.
The rule states

2. If a rider accelerates in an unsafe manner while off course or cuts part of the racecourse, the rider may be determined to have gained an advantage without gaining a position.2

Cutting the racecourse is enough for the race direction to deem an advantage has been gained. It doesn't necessitate a predication of time loss/gain.
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Park Boys
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1/30/2022 4:05am Edited Date/Time 1/30/2022 4:06am
Don’t wanna piss off Roger it seems, plus it was basically his teammate behind him. So no protest from that angle will be done. They care a lot more about Webb then Dean.
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1/30/2022 4:37am


That was not Webb's first rodeo. He knows that he shouldn't have cut the track.
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1/30/2022 4:46am
Did nothing wrong. Nothing to see here. Either way it’s 1 point in the back half of the top 10 some of you act like he kicked your dog on the way around those things
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shuggs
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1/30/2022 4:54am
Alan Dove wrote:
The fact that riders have crashed in the whoops demonstrates that there is a demonstrable risk in riding them. That's a fact. Thus Webb reduced his...
The fact that riders have crashed in the whoops demonstrates that there is a demonstrable risk in riding them. That's a fact. Thus Webb reduced his risk of crashing in the whoops by not re-entering when was practically possible, and skipping them.


4.15

i. A rider leaving the course may continue the race by properly
re-entering the track at the closest safe point to where the rider
left the course without gaining an advantage.

1. While off course, the rider may not accelerate in an unsafe
manner as deemed by Race Direction.

2. If a rider accelerates in an unsafe manner while off course
or cuts part of the racecourse, the rider may be determined
to have gained an advantage without gaining a position.

3. It will be the duty of Race Direction to make the
determination as to whether a rider gained an advantage by
leaving the racecourse and re-entering


Webb indisputably cut part of the racecourse, and this may be determined as gaining an advantage without gaining a position. It doesn't matter than he didn't gas it. Not doing the whoops lowers your risk of crashing, willfully cutting the racecourse would warrant sanction under the current regulations in my view.

The theoretical lost time argument isn't really valid.
Sorry but if he crashed in whoops he should NOT have left the track but should have got back on bike and roll through them - no danger there then eh? But there is the possibility of losing MORE positions with riders behind going race speed.
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VicDaMoan03
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1/30/2022 5:03am
The whole re-enter in next safest place rule is ridiculous and is regularly taken advantage of. Riders will crash, skip an entire section, and claim they didn't gain an advantage. Yes maybe you didn't gain time but you also didn't lose any time when you should have because YOU CRASHED. Go back and watch races from the early 2000s or before how it should be done re-entering where they went off. It's not dangerous and doesn't look ridiculous to fans.

That said besides the ridiculous rule, Webb clearly cheated and should be penalized. He crashed on the track, remounted on the track, and decided to go off the track to skip the section of the track he struggles with.
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Crush
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1/30/2022 5:12am Edited Date/Time 1/30/2022 5:13am
Park Boys wrote:
Don’t wanna piss off Roger it seems, plus it was basically his teammate behind him. So no protest from that angle will be done. They care...
Don’t wanna piss off Roger it seems, plus it was basically his teammate behind him. So no protest from that angle will be done. They care a lot more about Webb then Dean.
Shouldn’t have shyte to do with them though, was plain as day on video, stewards should just be on it… otherwise now we’re creating an uneven playing field because KTM sells a shit load of off-road bikes and can field a three mfg ensemble.
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Hi Side
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1/30/2022 6:23am
The AMA's lack of consistency at this point is comical. They have been a shit show for a longtime and it appears as though they forever will be.
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vdrsnk04
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1/30/2022 7:25am
To me, he didn’t have the distance to get up to speed to hit the whoops, rolling them he would be in others way that would be at speed. He went around the obstacle and did not accelerate while off track.

He did everything right, shouldn’t be docked.
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1/30/2022 7:27am
If I'm Webb, I'd be more worried about the performance of my bike for the next race than I am of losing 1 position for cutting out the whoops. That KTM isn't turning at all and it looks like Ando's Kawi in the heat race the entire main.
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VicDaMoan03
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1/30/2022 7:30am Edited Date/Time 1/30/2022 7:31am
vdrsnk04 wrote:
To me, he didn’t have the distance to get up to speed to hit the whoops, rolling them he would be in others way that would...
To me, he didn’t have the distance to get up to speed to hit the whoops, rolling them he would be in others way that would be at speed. He went around the obstacle and did not accelerate while off track.

He did everything right, shouldn’t be docked.
So if you don't have enough speed you can skip sections of the track? What's to stop someone from going slow and skipping entire sections of track throughout the whole race?
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1/30/2022 7:37am
Mit12 wrote:
He actually lost time to the rider behind him so he did not gain an advantage. No need to dock him.
The reference of gaining an advantage isn't other riders. It's the scenario of going through the whoops from standing still. he definitely gained an advantage
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Splat03
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1/30/2022 7:47am
Half of these posts seem to be arguing Letter of the law vs Intent of the law. It seemed reasonable for Coop to skip the section due to the fall. It gives him time to make sure the bike is straight and adjust to it if it’s not. He didn’t appear to hammer the throttle and race off track. He seemed to purposely keep it slow and re-entered at the end of the section.
Could he have stayed on the track and rolled the whoops, absolutely.
Was exiting the track and rolling along side the section after a crash before returning to the track and returning to race speed reasonable? You know it was.
I’m not even a Coop fan but it’s pretty clear.
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FWYT
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1/30/2022 7:48am
Clearly, the actual race track is just a suggestion.
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1/30/2022 7:53am
He should be! I'm sure everyone wishes they could leave the track and go around the whoops every now and then.
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diz330
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1/30/2022 7:53am
Mit12 wrote:
He actually lost time to the rider behind him so he did not gain an advantage. No need to dock him.
crusty_xx wrote:
The reference of gaining an advantage isn't other riders. It's the scenario of going through the whoops from standing still. he definitely gained an advantage
%100!!!
enketchum
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1/30/2022 7:56am
Talisker wrote:
Webb’s performance tonight was terrible. With Aldon no longer around, he maybe “Partying in Temecula” a bit much.
Club Rubber
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Magoofan
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1/30/2022 7:58am
The Webb hate is strong again this season...

Lame.

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KurtJ99
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1/30/2022 8:09am
Truncating the rule to just the items of interest
"If a rider cuts part of the racecourse, the rider may be determined
to have gained an advantage without gaining a position."

So they probably didn't like it but since Wilson caught up maybe they didn't feel like penalizing him.
Yes, he should have stayed in the whoops and rolled them. The excuse of "checking out his bike" after the crash doesn't hold water for me. Normally you'd roll the track and check into the mechanics area - at great cost to positions. But you don't get a free lane aside from the track to cruise on.

In a rhythm section with guys doubling/tripling I can see where it can be unsafe to enter. He could have just rolled the whoops - and Wilson would have passed him would would be the right consequence.
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yak651
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1/30/2022 8:22am
Magoofan wrote:
The Webb hate is strong again this season...

Lame.

The Webb fan boys are pretty good at blocking out the wrongs this season...

Lame
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prozach
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1/30/2022 8:47am Edited Date/Time 1/30/2022 8:50am
Obviously Webb thought there was an advantage, otherwise he wouldn't have rode off the track and skipped an entire section!

If purposely cutting the track isn't against the rules, then the rules need to be updated. Not docking Webb for that seems so counter to what racing should be about.

For those saying to check out his bike...he tipped over going 5 mph! He could check it out before going, or while on the track also.
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Leave Us To
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1/30/2022 8:51am
Mit12 wrote:
He actually lost time to the rider behind him so he did not gain an advantage. No need to dock him.
No need for Webb to have not taken the whoops.
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