STARK FUTURE VARG - An Electric Bike that is Faster and Lighter than a 450?

Spergen
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Spergen 12/19/2021 3:09pm
12/19/2021 3:09pm
If the option is there for a road registered enduro model with lights and can really last a 3hr hair and hound I'm definitely ordering one.
phcross
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phcross 12/19/2021 8:36pm
12/19/2021 8:36pm
Messing around with a Varg in Suppy form and "factory parts" on it.

For sure will be fun to see one tricked out when they come racing.



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Last Braaap
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Last Braaap 12/20/2021 12:07am
12/20/2021 12:07am Edited Date/Time 12/20/2021 1:13am
Mercedes F1 has thermal efficiency around 50%, Mazda's skyactiv x has above 50%... But unless you have shitload of electronics and or "contolled" knocking gasoline engine i would not bet that mx bikes are above 40% percent.

Hey! Pssst! You. Yeah, you! Wanna know a little secret? You can make almost 100% thermal efficient piston icu. You don't believe me?Just envelope the whole engine with heatexchangers that cool it with liquid nitrogen so the exhaust gas is really freaking cold. There you have it! You converted all the energy in fuel into motion and heat... So now you have shitload of heat in the pipes filled with not so liquid nitrogen anymore... You can use it for... Uhhh...Or... Just send me 15% fee from your patent royalties.

ICUs have their use but due to a lot of moving parts they are not so great in efficiency contest.
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idworx
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idworx 12/20/2021 6:54am
12/20/2021 6:54am
idworx wrote:
6kWh of energy on board; that is less energy than ONE liter of fuel and this combined with 80hp. "6 hrs of lighter trail riding"? Ha...
6kWh of energy on board; that is less energy than ONE liter of fuel and this combined with 80hp.

"6 hrs of lighter trail riding"? Ha ha ha. The e-engine is more efficient, but you would still need at least a 20kWh battery but that would make the bike much too heavy/big. This is the same problem with e-cars. We need much better batteries first.

I do like their technical details though.
endurox wrote:
Internal combustion efficiency of about 30% versus electric brushless motor efficiency of over 92%
Sure, but even then 6kWh is almost nothing!
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byke
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byke 12/20/2021 8:51am
12/20/2021 8:51am
idworx wrote:
6kWh of energy on board; that is less energy than ONE liter of fuel and this combined with 80hp. "6 hrs of lighter trail riding"? Ha...
6kWh of energy on board; that is less energy than ONE liter of fuel and this combined with 80hp.

"6 hrs of lighter trail riding"? Ha ha ha. The e-engine is more efficient, but you would still need at least a 20kWh battery but that would make the bike much too heavy/big. This is the same problem with e-cars. We need much better batteries first.

I do like their technical details though.
endurox wrote:
Internal combustion efficiency of about 30% versus electric brushless motor efficiency of over 92%
idworx wrote:
Sure, but even then 6kWh is almost nothing!
About the same as Alta, which should offer some good insight to run time, which would probably be less if using more hp.
sanders7261 12/20/2021 11:13am
12/20/2021 11:13am
I haven't chimed in as I'm hesitant to do so in these Viral Forums, I'm more of a lurker, and "bros" and ViTards get pretty nasty... That being said, the level of unbridled enthusiasm for a new technology is making some people think emotionally rather than logically. The same can be said of the hard-core I'll never ride an electric bike crowd. Both camps are entrenched in polarizing views and mindsets. What needs to happen is open, logical discussion as we all benefit from better equipment, but it needs to be just that, better.

There are so many cool things about this new Varg that have me VERY excited and do look better; custom mapping for tailored power, no top ends or oil changes, no air filters, etc. Not to mention it looks like they've done some really innovative chain adjustment and swing arm work, along with cellphone integration, albeit all untested by the masses at this point. But what keeps holding me back, and why I have money down on a 22 YZ250F instead is range and time.

A few here have mentioned how many Vital guys really ride that much at the track anyway? We'll, in point of fact, I do. On open practice days at my local track, I arrive @ 9am and generally ride until about 11. That's not breakneck pace, but I'm a 40 year old Vet rider in very good shape with decent speed. I stop for about 1 hr for lunch, and then ride off and on 1 hr @ a time with 20 minutes between each "moto" for rest until about 4. I then break until 530-6 and ride again until 8pm sometimes. 6 to 8 is generally my favorite time as so many other guys have left by now and the owner let's anyone stay late that wants to. I just don't think a 6kw battery will last that long, even with charging at the break times.

I'm pretty sure I will like a battery powered bike at some point, but it's a little too early to say, "ICE is dead". Thank goodness for the early adopters as they will pave the way for an E-MX bike that I will definitely buy one day. Or, maybe I should just buy BOTH right now and ride my old tech YZF when my battery dies, right?!

Lastly, let's not forget that on a regional LL qualifier day at my local track there were at least 500 or more 250 and up riders. That's a lot of generators purring along...not to mention mining lithium, cobalt and other limited supply precious metals for these batteries is not "Eco-friendly" either.

I know...this was too many words. I guess it's been building up over time 😉
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gt80rider
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gt80rider 12/20/2021 11:17am
12/20/2021 11:17am
gt80rider wrote:
LOL.... ya no the real fun part is gonna be when they get 20 of those bikes at the same track..... gonna have to put a...
LOL.... ya no

the real fun part is gonna be when they get 20 of those bikes at the same track..... gonna have to put a brass bar in place of that circuit breaker... LOL
early wrote:
Every mechanic and aftermarket company employee that gets put out of work because of the lack of parts/maintenance on electric bikes can just become an electrician...
Every mechanic and aftermarket company employee that gets put out of work because of the lack of parts/maintenance on electric bikes can just become an electrician. That job is going to be very important and in demand in the future.
Ya... Changing out a rotor.... heck, properly shimming a rotor.... balancing a rotor.... plenty of soldering... changing out motor bearings... oh ya... cant wait to watch the pits in coming years.... lol
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early
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early 12/20/2021 11:23am
12/20/2021 11:23am
gt80rider wrote:
Ya... Changing out a rotor.... heck, properly shimming a rotor.... balancing a rotor.... plenty of soldering... changing out motor bearings... oh ya... cant wait to watch...
Ya... Changing out a rotor.... heck, properly shimming a rotor.... balancing a rotor.... plenty of soldering... changing out motor bearings... oh ya... cant wait to watch the pits in coming years.... lol
You either didn't read or didn't understand my comment.
early
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early 12/20/2021 11:30am
12/20/2021 11:30am
sanders7261 wrote:
I haven't chimed in as I'm hesitant to do so in these Viral Forums, I'm more of a lurker, and "bros" and ViTards get pretty nasty...
I haven't chimed in as I'm hesitant to do so in these Viral Forums, I'm more of a lurker, and "bros" and ViTards get pretty nasty... That being said, the level of unbridled enthusiasm for a new technology is making some people think emotionally rather than logically. The same can be said of the hard-core I'll never ride an electric bike crowd. Both camps are entrenched in polarizing views and mindsets. What needs to happen is open, logical discussion as we all benefit from better equipment, but it needs to be just that, better.

There are so many cool things about this new Varg that have me VERY excited and do look better; custom mapping for tailored power, no top ends or oil changes, no air filters, etc. Not to mention it looks like they've done some really innovative chain adjustment and swing arm work, along with cellphone integration, albeit all untested by the masses at this point. But what keeps holding me back, and why I have money down on a 22 YZ250F instead is range and time.

A few here have mentioned how many Vital guys really ride that much at the track anyway? We'll, in point of fact, I do. On open practice days at my local track, I arrive @ 9am and generally ride until about 11. That's not breakneck pace, but I'm a 40 year old Vet rider in very good shape with decent speed. I stop for about 1 hr for lunch, and then ride off and on 1 hr @ a time with 20 minutes between each "moto" for rest until about 4. I then break until 530-6 and ride again until 8pm sometimes. 6 to 8 is generally my favorite time as so many other guys have left by now and the owner let's anyone stay late that wants to. I just don't think a 6kw battery will last that long, even with charging at the break times.

I'm pretty sure I will like a battery powered bike at some point, but it's a little too early to say, "ICE is dead". Thank goodness for the early adopters as they will pave the way for an E-MX bike that I will definitely buy one day. Or, maybe I should just buy BOTH right now and ride my old tech YZF when my battery dies, right?!

Lastly, let's not forget that on a regional LL qualifier day at my local track there were at least 500 or more 250 and up riders. That's a lot of generators purring along...not to mention mining lithium, cobalt and other limited supply precious metals for these batteries is not "Eco-friendly" either.

I know...this was too many words. I guess it's been building up over time 😉
Seems to me that alot folks putting down deposits on this bike have home use in mind primarily, and inconvenience at the track will either be dealt with or their old gas bike will be employed in the downtime.
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sanders7261 12/20/2021 11:47am
12/20/2021 11:47am
early wrote:
Seems to me that alot folks putting down deposits on this bike have home use in mind primarily, and inconvenience at the track will either be...
Seems to me that alot folks putting down deposits on this bike have home use in mind primarily, and inconvenience at the track will either be dealt with or their old gas bike will be employed in the downtime.
That's also true of home use and not annoying the neighbors, which is great for our sport! I just can't afford a 9k bike AND a 13k bike, but if others can, more "power" to them! Well, actually that's not true...I could afford both, but my wife would probably lose her mind OR I would have to put in that pool and hot tub she has been wanting...

Right now, one bike fits all is what I need and ICE has that covered for my usage.
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byke
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byke 12/20/2021 12:08pm
12/20/2021 12:08pm
Google says the average car is running at 40% thermal efficiency. Maybe it's under ideal use, maybe it's an average, who knows, who cares.
early
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early 12/20/2021 12:16pm
12/20/2021 12:16pm
sanders7261 wrote:
That's also true of home use and not annoying the neighbors, which is great for our sport! I just can't afford a 9k bike AND a...
That's also true of home use and not annoying the neighbors, which is great for our sport! I just can't afford a 9k bike AND a 13k bike, but if others can, more "power" to them! Well, actually that's not true...I could afford both, but my wife would probably lose her mind OR I would have to put in that pool and hot tub she has been wanting...

Right now, one bike fits all is what I need and ICE has that covered for my usage.
And one gas bike will likely fit your needs until you are a 50 or 60 year old vet rider. There is some concerning legislation in CA and the EU regarding gas bikes, but manufacturer timelines are looking 15 years into the future (or most likely further) before full conversion to electric.

Right now, just using many happy Alta riders as a bench mark, the electric tech is good enough to fill a niche that alot of people are looking for. Your time to join the niche may be a little ways off however.
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Broseph
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Broseph 12/20/2021 12:16pm
12/20/2021 12:16pm
byke wrote:
Google says the average car is running at 40% thermal efficiency. Maybe it's under ideal use, maybe it's an average, who knows, who cares.
Where did you find that number?
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byke
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byke 12/20/2021 12:21pm
12/20/2021 12:21pm
byke wrote:
Google says the average car is running at 40% thermal efficiency. Maybe it's under ideal use, maybe it's an average, who knows, who cares.
Broseph wrote:
Where did you find that number?
Here was one article mentioning it, but apologies, it's not "average", it's "good". Along with a comment about formula 1...

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1131410_nissan-could-release-a-car-…


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early
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early 12/20/2021 12:25pm
12/20/2021 12:25pm
byke wrote:
Here was one article mentioning it, but apologies, it's not "average", it's "good". Along with a comment about formula 1...

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1131410_nissan-could-release-a-car-…


Damn, we've come full circle!

From the article
"Nissan said Friday that an engine designed for road cars could achieve 50% thermal efficiency, but there's a catch: the engine would need to be running at a constant rpm, for example when used as a generator in an extended-range electric vehicle."
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byke
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byke 12/20/2021 12:34pm
12/20/2021 12:34pm Edited Date/Time 12/20/2021 12:35pm
byke wrote:
Here was one article mentioning it, but apologies, it's not "average", it's "good". Along with a comment about formula 1...

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1131410_nissan-could-release-a-car-…


early wrote:
Damn, we've come full circle! From the article "Nissan said Friday that an engine designed for road cars could achieve 50% thermal efficiency, but there's a...
Damn, we've come full circle!

From the article
"Nissan said Friday that an engine designed for road cars could achieve 50% thermal efficiency, but there's a catch: the engine would need to be running at a constant rpm, for example when used as a generator in an extended-range electric vehicle."
Not sure that quote tells us anything. If we're not using the best case scenario, which is a scenario where rpm and load are constant, then why is it a catch and why even mention it, if that's the standard? Still have no idea if 40% is an average, or not, but either way....who knows, who cares.
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8500rpm
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8500rpm 12/20/2021 12:35pm
12/20/2021 12:35pm
early wrote:
Seems to me that alot folks putting down deposits on this bike have home use in mind primarily, and inconvenience at the track will either be...
Seems to me that alot folks putting down deposits on this bike have home use in mind primarily, and inconvenience at the track will either be dealt with or their old gas bike will be employed in the downtime.
sanders7261 wrote:
That's also true of home use and not annoying the neighbors, which is great for our sport! I just can't afford a 9k bike AND a...
That's also true of home use and not annoying the neighbors, which is great for our sport! I just can't afford a 9k bike AND a 13k bike, but if others can, more "power" to them! Well, actually that's not true...I could afford both, but my wife would probably lose her mind OR I would have to put in that pool and hot tub she has been wanting...

Right now, one bike fits all is what I need and ICE has that covered for my usage.
Agree. I think discussions get complicated when you mix and match HomeUse and TrackUse. I'm sure the Varg is fantastic, Uber Fantastic at HomeUse... and maybe it's AS GOOD for racing as the Austrian or Japanese bikes, but that I don't know yet.

I will not pay for a 'home use bike' and a track bike, but agree, super duper fun for anyone who does!

And who knows, maybe the Varg is the only bike we need, it will leave the Kawis and Yammies in the dust on track????
2
early
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early 12/20/2021 12:45pm
12/20/2021 12:45pm
byke wrote:
Not sure that quote tells us anything. If we're not using the best case scenario, which is a scenario where rpm and load are constant, then...
Not sure that quote tells us anything. If we're not using the best case scenario, which is a scenario where rpm and load are constant, then why is it a catch and why even mention it, if that's the standard? Still have no idea if 40% is an average, or not, but either way....who knows, who cares.
It's just ironic that what started as a discussion of the efficiency of ICE engines vs electric motors progressed to Nissan saying the only way an ICE will reach 50% thermal efficiency on the road is by driving an electric motor.
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byke
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byke 12/20/2021 12:56pm
12/20/2021 12:56pm
byke wrote:
Not sure that quote tells us anything. If we're not using the best case scenario, which is a scenario where rpm and load are constant, then...
Not sure that quote tells us anything. If we're not using the best case scenario, which is a scenario where rpm and load are constant, then why is it a catch and why even mention it, if that's the standard? Still have no idea if 40% is an average, or not, but either way....who knows, who cares.
early wrote:
It's just ironic that what started as a discussion of the efficiency of ICE engines vs electric motors progressed to Nissan saying the only way an...
It's just ironic that what started as a discussion of the efficiency of ICE engines vs electric motors progressed to Nissan saying the only way an ICE will reach 50% thermal efficiency on the road is by driving an electric motor.
Haha, I hear you, though not exactly, it was just using that as a reference. Ultimately, load and rpm are going to change in use, whether it's running an electric motor or not. Take your air compressor for example, it's a 3500rpm electric motor that doesn't run at 3500rpm under load, yet we consider them to be constant rpm anyway.
early
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early 12/20/2021 3:51pm
12/20/2021 3:51pm
Here's a teardown of an Alta battery in case anyone is wondering.
https://youtu.be/1BoWQ54NpU0
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wfopete
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wfopete 12/20/2021 4:17pm
12/20/2021 4:17pm
All this thermal chat is fine but after making my $100 offering my questions are centered around the ability to upgrade, parts, their cost and can I work on this thing in my shed? Keep in mind that there are thousands of non-races who would rather ride instead of working on their bike. These riders are tired of ICE related problems and with a quiet bike could ride in a lot more places closer to home. Riders who don't ride near their max ability and don't have a problem stopping every 20 minutes to BS with their fellow riders. $12K is a chunk of change but when you factor in the the lack of maintenance and the associated money (and time) saved not wrenching on a ICE bike. How many of these riders need a dealer to service their steed because of lack time and/or wrenching skills at $100/hr labor rate? All of a sudden the high dollar figure of the Stark doesn't seem out of line and to some; a steal.
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PJRAUS
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PJRAUS 12/20/2021 5:26pm
12/20/2021 5:26pm
early wrote:
Seems to me that alot folks putting down deposits on this bike have home use in mind primarily, and inconvenience at the track will either be...
Seems to me that alot folks putting down deposits on this bike have home use in mind primarily, and inconvenience at the track will either be dealt with or their old gas bike will be employed in the downtime.
sanders7261 wrote:
That's also true of home use and not annoying the neighbors, which is great for our sport! I just can't afford a 9k bike AND a...
That's also true of home use and not annoying the neighbors, which is great for our sport! I just can't afford a 9k bike AND a 13k bike, but if others can, more "power" to them! Well, actually that's not true...I could afford both, but my wife would probably lose her mind OR I would have to put in that pool and hot tub she has been wanting...

Right now, one bike fits all is what I need and ICE has that covered for my usage.
8500rpm wrote:
Agree. I think discussions get complicated when you mix and match HomeUse and TrackUse. I'm sure the Varg is fantastic, Uber Fantastic at HomeUse... and maybe...
Agree. I think discussions get complicated when you mix and match HomeUse and TrackUse. I'm sure the Varg is fantastic, Uber Fantastic at HomeUse... and maybe it's AS GOOD for racing as the Austrian or Japanese bikes, but that I don't know yet.

I will not pay for a 'home use bike' and a track bike, but agree, super duper fun for anyone who does!

And who knows, maybe the Varg is the only bike we need, it will leave the Kawis and Yammies in the dust on track????
Its all about home use for me, not at all concerned about run time or recharge time.
I will for sure take it to my local track to test it out...I always take 2 bikes to the track...this will just make it harder to decide which ones to leave home..
My only concern is the volatility of the world right now and the bullshit coming back big time and shutting everyone..including Stark Future , down again.
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theycallmeebryan 12/20/2021 7:00pm
12/20/2021 7:00pm
wfopete wrote:
All this thermal chat is fine but after making my $100 offering my questions are centered around the ability to upgrade, parts, their cost and can...
All this thermal chat is fine but after making my $100 offering my questions are centered around the ability to upgrade, parts, their cost and can I work on this thing in my shed? Keep in mind that there are thousands of non-races who would rather ride instead of working on their bike. These riders are tired of ICE related problems and with a quiet bike could ride in a lot more places closer to home. Riders who don't ride near their max ability and don't have a problem stopping every 20 minutes to BS with their fellow riders. $12K is a chunk of change but when you factor in the the lack of maintenance and the associated money (and time) saved not wrenching on a ICE bike. How many of these riders need a dealer to service their steed because of lack time and/or wrenching skills at $100/hr labor rate? All of a sudden the high dollar figure of the Stark doesn't seem out of line and to some; a steal.
This is exactly how things are right now with my Alta. It's a machine that just flawlessly works well every single time i ride it with very minimal maintenance (just wear items like tires, chain/sprockets, grips, suspension like any other bike), and the riding experience is like no other dirtbike out there.
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SilverSpurs
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SilverSpurs 12/20/2021 7:17pm
12/20/2021 7:17pm
early wrote:
It's just ironic that what started as a discussion of the efficiency of ICE engines vs electric motors progressed to Nissan saying the only way an...
It's just ironic that what started as a discussion of the efficiency of ICE engines vs electric motors progressed to Nissan saying the only way an ICE will reach 50% thermal efficiency on the road is by driving an electric motor.
It's exactly what real experts, not green ideological zealots and paid shills have been saying. Hybrid technology is the only way EV road vehicles make sense.
Internal combustion engine efficiency is increasing far faster than heavy, incredibly expensive, dangerously explosion prone and pathetically low power to volume battery capacity.
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abomination 12/20/2021 7:25pm
12/20/2021 7:25pm
you say this shit like oil & glass has no shills and all the real experts? okay guy.

and i don't care if it 'makes sense' to you. does to tesla and their owners. and with dirt bikes, certainly has to alta owners. move along.
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Bearuno
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Bearuno 12/20/2021 8:17pm
12/20/2021 8:17pm Edited Date/Time 12/20/2021 8:57pm
With all of the back and forth here, some might want to check out the Audi RS Q e tron, that's being run in the Dakar, in the New Year.

Electric drive with a Very trick ICE engine as a charger / replenisher .

They've employed a few Giants of Dakar, to do the driving. Some are expecting too much from the initial 'go' at it, some are expecting the worst.

Me, I'm just Very interested in it.

ICE isn't disappearing particularly soon, and neither is E taking completely over, with any real rush. The hysteria from the extremes of both sides is, a bit much.

As I've said, I'm very interested in the Strong Wolf, and, hopefully, perhaps Mainly, the Major manufacturers response to it. I may have to go and visit PJRaus when he gets his, and I will keep putting $$ into my 'magic drawer' , for whatever I might buy for my next bike. An E bike would be perfect for my local, single track, nasty terrain near houses ( a few, but ever growing - people are putting their "dream homes" in frighteningly foolish, dangerous, fire prone places - they are going to burn, baby, burn, sooner, rather than later) riding.
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OrangeJuice158 12/20/2021 10:02pm
12/20/2021 10:02pm
Mx provides a lot of opportunities for regenerative braking (at least the way I ride) if you can figure out a clever way to do it from the front wheel and would probably make 6kWh viable.
PJRAUS
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PJRAUS 12/21/2021 5:19am
12/21/2021 5:19am
Bearuno wrote:
With all of the back and forth here, some might want to check out the Audi RS Q e tron, that's being run in the Dakar...
With all of the back and forth here, some might want to check out the Audi RS Q e tron, that's being run in the Dakar, in the New Year.

Electric drive with a Very trick ICE engine as a charger / replenisher .

They've employed a few Giants of Dakar, to do the driving. Some are expecting too much from the initial 'go' at it, some are expecting the worst.

Me, I'm just Very interested in it.

ICE isn't disappearing particularly soon, and neither is E taking completely over, with any real rush. The hysteria from the extremes of both sides is, a bit much.

As I've said, I'm very interested in the Strong Wolf, and, hopefully, perhaps Mainly, the Major manufacturers response to it. I may have to go and visit PJRaus when he gets his, and I will keep putting $$ into my 'magic drawer' , for whatever I might buy for my next bike. An E bike would be perfect for my local, single track, nasty terrain near houses ( a few, but ever growing - people are putting their "dream homes" in frighteningly foolish, dangerous, fire prone places - they are going to burn, baby, burn, sooner, rather than later) riding.
That would be cool! You will be very welcome to come visit me.
Perhaps the thing im most looking forward to, is developing 3 separate tracks on the property were I live..Ive already spent loads of time walking them, visualising where they are going to go and the litt l ebit of earth works i will need to do here and there...right now Im investigating just how feasible and efficient battery powered and solar charged portable light stations could be...I would love to be able to ride my tracks at night..for a few reasons..
Of course , all,of these plans are pointless unless I have an EMX bike...Im simply not allowed to ride my gas bikes here, unless Im moving sheep around for my landlord...
He loves the whole electric powdered transport idea...was frothing when I showed him some Stark avarg video...I can do what I want here on an EMX bike..
Got almost aĺ the $$$ saved...I will be ready when they contact me to pay in full...
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soggy
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soggy 12/21/2021 6:18am
12/21/2021 6:18am
My bike is 100% efficient when it’s sitting in my garage - silver spurs probably.
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Silas444 12/21/2021 6:22am
12/21/2021 6:22am
Okay, okay, we're all very impressed at how you guys are able to argue the finer points of thermal efficiencies vis-a-vis internal combustion F1 engines. However, your back-and-forth has left me frothing at the mouth for someone to either return this thread to some semblance of relevancy or post a picture of a bear and put me out of this misery.

Since the latter didn't happen, I'll attempt the former: what if the opposite was true regarding where we are now? What if we all currently rode electric bikes and someone invented a modern-day ICE 450 overnight and debuted it for us to consider and possibly purchase.

What would be the selling points of it?

"Hey fellas, no more hearing yourself talk while you ride - this thing is so loud you can hear it for MILES!!!!"
"Hey guys, no more amateur hour - this new bike will force a rider to master a CLUTCH to go fast!!!"
"This bike can blow up on a jump face, so you'll spend fun time in your garage with oily wrenches preventing that!!!"
"Spending money on your suspension making your bike plush? Forget that!!! You can spend it all on a new PIPE!!!"
"Tired of going home without impressive blisters? You can ride this beast for 8 hours straight and RUIN your hands!!!"
"Ever heard the term "Arm Pump?" You will now!!!!
"Who needs an infinitely customizable power curve? Toughen yourself up, get what you get, and just LUMP IT!!!

Say what you will, I somehow doubt they'd sell 800 of them overnight. Sometimes, if you turn a situation around, the points you're arguing against become a bit less compelling, no?
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