Premier Class? 250 Fastest at Budds Creek

-MAVERICK-
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Location
Ontario, CA
8/22/2021 3:01pm
Never is a long time.
You won't see a single premier class for as long as the manufacturers put out 2 different size bikes.
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8/22/2021 3:17pm
Justin Cooper = 1.47.854 250 Eli Tomac = 1.48.376 Jeremy Martin = 1.48.433 250 Chase Sexton = 1.48.613 Ken Roczen = 1.48.703 Jett Lawrence = 1.48.851...
Justin Cooper = 1.47.854 250
Eli Tomac = 1.48.376
Jeremy Martin = 1.48.433 250
Chase Sexton = 1.48.613
Ken Roczen = 1.48.703
Jett Lawrence = 1.48.851 250
Austin Forkner = 1.49.419 250
Ty Masterpool = 1.49.444 250
RJ Hampshire = 1.49.518 250
Dylan Ferrandis = 1.49.564
Jalek Swoll = 1.49.861 250
Garrett Marchbanks = 1.49.988 250

It's a shame we don't get to see the fastest rider's race each other.

Fastest lap of every race

250 moto 1

1/ Justin Cooper = 1.47.854
2/ Austin Forkner = 1.49.419
3/ Ty Masterpool = 1.49.444
4/ RJ Hampshire = 1.49.518
5/ Jalek Swoll = 1.49.861
6/ Garrett Marchbanks = 1.49.988
7/ Jeremy Martin = 1.50.007
8/ Jett Lawrence = 1.50.208
9/ Hunter Lawrence = 1.50.438
10/ Max Vohland = 1.50.886

450 moto 1

1/ Chase Sexton = 1.48.613
2/ Ken Roczen = 1.48.703
3/ Eli Tomac = 1.49.455
4/ Dylan Ferrandis = 1.49.923
5/ Joey Savatgy = 1.50.467
6/ Cooper Webb = 1.50.652
7/ Coty Schock = 1.51.577
8/ Marvin Musquin = 1.51.763
9/ Dean Wilson = 1.52.699
10/ Max Anstie = 1.52.756

250 moto 2

1/ Jeremy Martin = 1.48.433
2/ Jett Lawrence = 1.48.851
3/ Justin Cooper = 1.50.334
4/ Hunter Lawrence = 1.50.977
5/ Ty Masterpool = 1.51.456
6/ Austin Forkner = 1.51.539
7/ Dilan Schwartz = 1.52.068
8/ Jarrett Frye = 1.52.276
9/ Jo Shimoda = 1.52.576
10/ RJ Hampshire = 1.52.739

450 moto 2

1/ Eli Tomac = 1.48.376
2/ Chase Sexton = 1.48.787
3/ Ken Roczen = 1.49.171
4/ Dylan Ferrandis = 1.49.564
5/ Joey Savatgy = 1.50.891
6/ Cooper Webb = 1.51.149
7/ Marvin Musquin = 1.51.205
8/ Christian Craig = 1.51.911
9/ Max Anstie = 1.53.298
10/ Dean Wilson = 1.53.572

Thanks for posting kaidodragon.

https://motocrossactionmag.com/flashback-friday-ryan-villopoto-dominate…

Seriously why waste your time?? This isn’t motogp, if you don’t understand why times are quicker on fresher tracks then please leave the sport..
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krypto71
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8/22/2021 3:44pm
You can put the OP down all you want but the top 250 guys would do ok on their factory 250’s in the 450 moto’s. Certainly no worse than most of those back markers that were being lapped! Who really cares though? What we want to see is the top guys in each class battling for race wins and championships. Which we have now. And it is always cool to see how the guys go moving up to the 450 class. The formula is pretty good as it is imo!
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Johnny Depp
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8/22/2021 3:51pm
-MAVERICK- wrote:
You won't see a single premier class for as long as the manufacturers put out 2 different size bikes.
" the manufacturers"

Or until some promoter comes along who isn't locked into AMA or FIM titles and pays real purses.
Whoever pays the top rider's controls everything.
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The Shop

Sully
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8/22/2021 4:14pm
-MAVERICK- wrote:
You won't see a single premier class for as long as the manufacturers put out 2 different size bikes.
" the manufacturers" Or until some promoter comes along who isn't locked into AMA or FIM titles and pays real purses. Whoever pays the top rider's...
" the manufacturers"

Or until some promoter comes along who isn't locked into AMA or FIM titles and pays real purses.
Whoever pays the top rider's controls everything.
You seem to have it all figured out, so why don't you put your money where your mouth is?

You sound more and more like Cox with each post...
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1
DonM
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USA
8/22/2021 4:23pm
-MAVERICK- wrote:
You won't see a single premier class for as long as the manufacturers put out 2 different size bikes.
" the manufacturers" Or until some promoter comes along who isn't locked into AMA or FIM titles and pays real purses. Whoever pays the top rider's...
" the manufacturers"

Or until some promoter comes along who isn't locked into AMA or FIM titles and pays real purses.
Whoever pays the top rider's controls everything.
Sully wrote:
You seem to have it all figured out, so why don't you put your money where your mouth is? You sound more and more like Cox...
You seem to have it all figured out, so why don't you put your money where your mouth is?

You sound more and more like Cox with each post...
Crazy? Laughing
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-MAVERICK-
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8/22/2021 4:36pm
" the manufacturers" Or until some promoter comes along who isn't locked into AMA or FIM titles and pays real purses. Whoever pays the top rider's...
" the manufacturers"

Or until some promoter comes along who isn't locked into AMA or FIM titles and pays real purses.
Whoever pays the top rider's controls everything.
"Whoever pays the top rider's controls everything"

The manufacturers.
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burn1986
Posts
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Location
bossier city, LA, USA
8/22/2021 8:15pm
Justin Cooper = 1.47.854 250 Eli Tomac = 1.48.376 Jeremy Martin = 1.48.433 250 Chase Sexton = 1.48.613 Ken Roczen = 1.48.703 Jett Lawrence = 1.48.851...
Justin Cooper = 1.47.854 250
Eli Tomac = 1.48.376
Jeremy Martin = 1.48.433 250
Chase Sexton = 1.48.613
Ken Roczen = 1.48.703
Jett Lawrence = 1.48.851 250
Austin Forkner = 1.49.419 250
Ty Masterpool = 1.49.444 250
RJ Hampshire = 1.49.518 250
Dylan Ferrandis = 1.49.564
Jalek Swoll = 1.49.861 250
Garrett Marchbanks = 1.49.988 250

It's a shame we don't get to see the fastest rider's race each other.

Fastest lap of every race

250 moto 1

1/ Justin Cooper = 1.47.854
2/ Austin Forkner = 1.49.419
3/ Ty Masterpool = 1.49.444
4/ RJ Hampshire = 1.49.518
5/ Jalek Swoll = 1.49.861
6/ Garrett Marchbanks = 1.49.988
7/ Jeremy Martin = 1.50.007
8/ Jett Lawrence = 1.50.208
9/ Hunter Lawrence = 1.50.438
10/ Max Vohland = 1.50.886

450 moto 1

1/ Chase Sexton = 1.48.613
2/ Ken Roczen = 1.48.703
3/ Eli Tomac = 1.49.455
4/ Dylan Ferrandis = 1.49.923
5/ Joey Savatgy = 1.50.467
6/ Cooper Webb = 1.50.652
7/ Coty Schock = 1.51.577
8/ Marvin Musquin = 1.51.763
9/ Dean Wilson = 1.52.699
10/ Max Anstie = 1.52.756

250 moto 2

1/ Jeremy Martin = 1.48.433
2/ Jett Lawrence = 1.48.851
3/ Justin Cooper = 1.50.334
4/ Hunter Lawrence = 1.50.977
5/ Ty Masterpool = 1.51.456
6/ Austin Forkner = 1.51.539
7/ Dilan Schwartz = 1.52.068
8/ Jarrett Frye = 1.52.276
9/ Jo Shimoda = 1.52.576
10/ RJ Hampshire = 1.52.739

450 moto 2

1/ Eli Tomac = 1.48.376
2/ Chase Sexton = 1.48.787
3/ Ken Roczen = 1.49.171
4/ Dylan Ferrandis = 1.49.564
5/ Joey Savatgy = 1.50.891
6/ Cooper Webb = 1.51.149
7/ Marvin Musquin = 1.51.205
8/ Christian Craig = 1.51.911
9/ Max Anstie = 1.53.298
10/ Dean Wilson = 1.53.572

Thanks for posting kaidodragon.

https://motocrossactionmag.com/flashback-friday-ryan-villopoto-dominate…

The 450s are heavy. It takes more to slow them down.
KirkChandler
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8/22/2021 9:06pm
Budds Creek has had this happen numerous times. I think the power advantage the 450s have is only applicable in a couple spots on this track (mainly in the Mechanic’s area, first uphill by the finish and the Big Gulp uphill). Those areas are outweighed by all the off camber corners and downhills. It’s really a momentum track with few heavy acceleration points that a 450 shines on.
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SilverSpurs
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8/22/2021 9:29pm
Tbteam wrote:
I had a great conversation this week with one of the most successful, multi time championship winning mechanics/engineers to ever be involved in MX/SX. His opinion...
I had a great conversation this week with one of the most successful, multi time championship winning mechanics/engineers to ever be involved in MX/SX. His opinion is the 450'a are overkill and he said as much to the manufacturer early on. They said they were too far down the road with the 450'a and there was no going back.

Does beg the question though... if 250'a run within tenths of 450'a, we need 450'a because...?

Maybe we need more ruts?
The better argument might be to drop the 250s and only run 450 cc bikes.

Everyone can see that at National level the 250's need big dollars for engine development and maintenance.

Lazy, low revving 450s last a lot longer and are more reliable and cheaper.
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haydos25
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Sydney, AU
8/22/2021 11:53pm Edited Date/Time 8/23/2021 12:04am
" the manufacturers" Or until some promoter comes along who isn't locked into AMA or FIM titles and pays real purses. Whoever pays the top rider's...
" the manufacturers"

Or until some promoter comes along who isn't locked into AMA or FIM titles and pays real purses.
Whoever pays the top rider's controls everything.
You're right.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for an interested promoter with hundreds of millions of dollars that they want to burn by outbidding all the manufacturers and control the top riders.

Then once thats done he can spend hundreds more millions buying out all the track owners so he can run a 1 class series to satisfy your lap time hypothesis.

Once thats all done we can all sit on our letterbox waiting for MXA to come and tell us all about how the riders all chose the 450cc bike so they wouldnt outgunned by the factory 450 next to them. Then after all that, we still haven't got a TV package where we can watch it live on our phones from across the other side of the world for a small fee.

Man there is so much wrong with MX today, im glad you're here with all the answers to the questions nobody was asking.
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Johnny Depp
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8/23/2021 7:15am
SilverSpurs wrote:
The better argument might be to drop the 250s and only run 450 cc bikes.

Everyone can see that at National level the 250's need big dollars for engine development and maintenance.

Lazy, low revving 450s last a lot longer and are more reliable and cheaper.



^This.
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motomike137
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8/23/2021 7:17am
The better argument might be to drop the 250s and only run 450 cc bikes. Everyone can see that at National level the 250's need big...
The better argument might be to drop the 250s and only run 450 cc bikes.

Everyone can see that at National level the 250's need big dollars for engine development and maintenance.

Lazy, low revving 450s last a lot longer and are more reliable and cheaper.
This is too simple of a solution and the aftermarket engine business would take a big hit! But it would work beautifully Smile
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motomike137
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8/23/2021 7:20am
Budds Creek has had this happen numerous times. I think the power advantage the 450s have is only applicable in a couple spots on this track...
Budds Creek has had this happen numerous times. I think the power advantage the 450s have is only applicable in a couple spots on this track (mainly in the Mechanic’s area, first uphill by the finish and the Big Gulp uphill). Those areas are outweighed by all the off camber corners and downhills. It’s really a momentum track with few heavy acceleration points that a 450 shines on.
It's a twisty turny track that was shortened and was narrow and rutty as heck with no place for the big dogs to eat. It made for some really intriguing racing in the 450's though imho.
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MetricHotrods
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8/23/2021 7:26am
Virtually every corner on this track is a varying degree off camber. Some mild, some extreme.

The lighter bikes have at least that advantage here more than anywhere else.
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Johnny Depp
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8/23/2021 7:37am
" the manufacturers" Or until some promoter comes along who isn't locked into AMA or FIM titles and pays real purses. Whoever pays the top rider's...
" the manufacturers"

Or until some promoter comes along who isn't locked into AMA or FIM titles and pays real purses.
Whoever pays the top rider's controls everything.
haydos25 wrote:
You're right. I'll keep my eyes peeled for an interested promoter with hundreds of millions of dollars that they want to burn by outbidding all the...
You're right.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for an interested promoter with hundreds of millions of dollars that they want to burn by outbidding all the manufacturers and control the top riders.

Then once thats done he can spend hundreds more millions buying out all the track owners so he can run a 1 class series to satisfy your lap time hypothesis.

Once thats all done we can all sit on our letterbox waiting for MXA to come and tell us all about how the riders all chose the 450cc bike so they wouldnt outgunned by the factory 450 next to them. Then after all that, we still haven't got a TV package where we can watch it live on our phones from across the other side of the world for a small fee.

Man there is so much wrong with MX today, im glad you're here with all the answers to the questions nobody was asking.
The history of our sport includes many different promoters here and abroad. If the purse money is compelling, some rider's will bet on themselves .Tracks are the least of the problem. Streaming has made TV obsolete.
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mx317
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8/23/2021 7:52am
Even going back to 125/250 2-stroke days, some tracks are better suited to smaller bikes. If they riders thought they had an advantage they would be riding 250Fs in the 450F class.
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Dirtysmile56
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8/23/2021 8:06am
Nismoguy32 wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/08/22/506763/s1200_DSC3395.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/08/22/506766/s1200_DSC2932.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/08/22/506769/s1200_DSC2386.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/08/22/506772/s1200_DSC2330.jpg[/img] A couple shots from yesterday!





A couple shots from yesterday!
That Budds Creek dirt looks insane!!!!
Bearuno
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8/23/2021 8:18am Edited Date/Time 8/23/2021 8:20am
It's always been this way.

Little, to no difference between the lap times, of the Top riders, in different classes.

That some are either too young, or so unknowledgeable of our sport, thinking they've made a new discovery, and then propose to change classes, or, dumb it down, well, we've always got limited individuals in our ranks that want to put forward their ideas for 'improvements'.

Yes, everyone can have their ideas, but not many of said 'ideas', are worthy of our magnificent sport.
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yz133rider
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8/23/2021 8:34am
It would be awesome if nearly the entire field were top talent, on top bikes, instead of 5-6 being able to lead laps and maybe podium maybe it becomes 8-12.

Maybe cuts down on lappers by having so many more top riders and so many less that are 30 seconds off per lap.
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Johnny Depp
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8/23/2021 8:46am
yz133rider wrote:
It would be awesome if nearly the entire field were top talent, on top bikes, instead of 5-6 being able to lead laps and maybe podium...
It would be awesome if nearly the entire field were top talent, on top bikes, instead of 5-6 being able to lead laps and maybe podium maybe it becomes 8-12.

Maybe cuts down on lappers by having so many more top riders and so many less that are 30 seconds off per lap.
Exactly, we might see some actual racing for position rather than huge separation. It is certainly working in SX with Triple Crowns, no lappers and no LCQ's etc.
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yz133rider
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8/23/2021 8:55am
I do think the whole set up of the top 20 scoring points and the last 20 essentially just gumming up the works as a bit off.

And the last 10 are generally so far off pace it shouldn’t even really be the same class.

But people get incredibly upset over comments like this.

And yes the 40th place rider can smoke me. Hence why I’m not out there.
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Johnny Depp
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8/23/2021 9:07am Edited Date/Time 8/23/2021 9:08am
yz133rider wrote:
I do think the whole set up of the top 20 scoring points and the last 20 essentially just gumming up the works as a bit...
I do think the whole set up of the top 20 scoring points and the last 20 essentially just gumming up the works as a bit off.

And the last 10 are generally so far off pace it shouldn’t even really be the same class.

But people get incredibly upset over comments like this.

And yes the 40th place rider can smoke me. Hence why I’m not out there.
Even DW15's best lap was 5 seconds off of the fastest pace and he was top 10.

Sometimes pulling back the curtain and exposing the truth is needed.
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soggy
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8/23/2021 9:37am
Even DW15's best lap was 5 seconds off of the fastest pace and he was top 10. Sometimes pulling back the curtain and exposing the truth...
Even DW15's best lap was 5 seconds off of the fastest pace and he was top 10.

Sometimes pulling back the curtain and exposing the truth is needed.
It’s ok to type something and then say nah I don’t need to post this.
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DonM
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8/23/2021 10:01am
yz133rider wrote:
I do think the whole set up of the top 20 scoring points and the last 20 essentially just gumming up the works as a bit...
I do think the whole set up of the top 20 scoring points and the last 20 essentially just gumming up the works as a bit off.

And the last 10 are generally so far off pace it shouldn’t even really be the same class.

But people get incredibly upset over comments like this.

And yes the 40th place rider can smoke me. Hence why I’m not out there.
Even DW15's best lap was 5 seconds off of the fastest pace and he was top 10. Sometimes pulling back the curtain and exposing the truth...
Even DW15's best lap was 5 seconds off of the fastest pace and he was top 10.

Sometimes pulling back the curtain and exposing the truth is needed.
Truth? The truth is that one lap out of 18, or in the case of the first 450 moto, 19 laps doesn’t mean a damn thing ( the 450’s ran 19 laps because, shocker, they were faster). The 450’s are always on a rougher track as I’ve stated previously the average lap times tell the true story.
So you think we should have just one premiere class because a few 250 riders, on a much smoother track, at one race, ran a faster lap time? Of course at Unadilla where the 450’s ran first Roczen ran a fast lap of 2:19 while Cooper ran a fast lap of 2:23….Well there goes that theory…
Not to mention your idea of having one premier class would cause fewer factory rides, fewer 2nd tier support rides and would actually hurt more than help the sport.
I can’t wait to hear your explanation on how this would actually help the sport….
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byke
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8/23/2021 10:05am
I'd like to think that the times are close enough that we can agree that displacement doesn't really matter.
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gt80rider
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8/23/2021 10:09am
Jc32 keeps blowing his entire wad in the first moto... dude needs to remember the ama runs two motos, not just one... lol... but seriously, dude has skills, just gotta get that head together
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loftyair
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riverside, CA, USA
8/23/2021 10:11am
Premier, support, any cc, stroke, or volts!
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DonM
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8/23/2021 10:14am
byke wrote:
I'd like to think that the times are close enough that we can agree that displacement doesn't really matter.
Until they race against each other…..450’s consistently run faster avg lap times on rougher tracks than the 250’s…even with all those 250’s running those faster laps on a completely smooth track the 450’s ran 19 laps to their 18 because they reached the finish line before the 30 mins ran out and the 250’s didn’t….
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Phil109
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8/23/2021 10:17am
The past few years have been some of the best racing I’ve witnessed at the front of the pack in both classes. I’m content.
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