Will KTM / WP ever give up on trying to reinvent the fork?

Brent
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5/26/2021 8:41pm
J-Mill wrote:
Pretty sure they are all on 52mm Cone-Valve spring forks... Most likely with the cones removed and replaced with shim stacks.
I was told Webb is currently using the 13MM cone from Mark Johnson.

the 52 uses the same internals as the WP Xact Pro 7548
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rjg
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5/26/2021 8:55pm
sandhills wrote:
A lot more money has gone into suspension development in other motorsports; Road bikes, rally cars, F1, stock cars, trophy trucks, all of them. Have either...
A lot more money has gone into suspension development in other motorsports; Road bikes, rally cars, F1, stock cars, trophy trucks, all of them.

Have either air springs or spring valve oil dampers (cone valves) succeeded in any of them? I think coil springs and shim valving have faced all challengers over suspension history and still come out on top. I find it hard to believe that there is some remaining secret to be unlocked, some idea KTM is going to have that hasn't already been tried in other racing.
Ya man you nailed. They are a bit delusional in their pursuit but then again they are Austrian and share many similarities with stereo typical German manufacturing. Square thru a circle....

Shims provide ultimate variations of any stiffness. They fatigue- not that much. As reliable as any other leaf spring.

King shocks idea seem like ultimate.
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slipdog
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I rode a stock '21 Rockstar FC450 today and the forks were perfectly fine. On par with my CRF450 and the '21 YZ450 I rode as well. Kind of want a Husky now...
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Bruce372
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5/26/2021 9:42pm
slipdog wrote:
I rode a stock '21 Rockstar FC450 today and the forks were perfectly fine. On par with my CRF450 and the '21 YZ450 I rode as...
I rode a stock '21 Rockstar FC450 today and the forks were perfectly fine. On par with my CRF450 and the '21 YZ450 I rode as well. Kind of want a Husky now...
Come on out to argyll this weekend

The Shop

Bruce372
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5/26/2021 9:45pm
I think a lot of issues people have with the airforks isbad shock setup making the forks feel worse. Who knows?

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soggy
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5/27/2021 4:19am
sandhills wrote:
Ok, so then if 3lbs is so important, why aren't any KTM pro racers using them.
soggy wrote:
Most of the factory ktm guys are on air forks.
J-Mill wrote:
Pretty sure they are all on 52mm Cone-Valve spring forks... Most likely with the cones removed and replaced with shim stacks.
I heard different. Most of the Star guys run air as well.
CKNY
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5/27/2021 4:34am
slipdog wrote:
I rode a stock '21 Rockstar FC450 today and the forks were perfectly fine. On par with my CRF450 and the '21 YZ450 I rode as...
I rode a stock '21 Rockstar FC450 today and the forks were perfectly fine. On par with my CRF450 and the '21 YZ450 I rode as well. Kind of want a Husky now...
Maybe until the track gets really rough with braking bumps and square edge hits?
I found my 21 TX felt almost as good as a spring fork on smoother tracks but really showed their weakness in the hack and slap downs. Part of that may be Valving. I use my bike more for offroad than MX so ended up getting a set of Luckies. Also had too many issues with the air side leaking. Dealer tried to fix it once, now it’s at WP waiting for a fix.
Brent
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5/27/2021 7:31am
Bruce372 wrote:
I think a lot of issues people have with the airforks isbad shock setup making the forks feel worse. Who knows?

Agreed.

Sag set up on the KTM /Husq/GasGas is critical.

Free sag should be 30 to 38mm and race sag should not be over 103mm.
Any more sag and the bike rides like a chopper because of the softer rear spring and linkage ratios.
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slipdog
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5/27/2021 7:40am
slipdog wrote:
I rode a stock '21 Rockstar FC450 today and the forks were perfectly fine. On par with my CRF450 and the '21 YZ450 I rode as...
I rode a stock '21 Rockstar FC450 today and the forks were perfectly fine. On par with my CRF450 and the '21 YZ450 I rode as well. Kind of want a Husky now...
CKNY wrote:
Maybe until the track gets really rough with braking bumps and square edge hits? I found my 21 TX felt almost as good as a spring...
Maybe until the track gets really rough with braking bumps and square edge hits?
I found my 21 TX felt almost as good as a spring fork on smoother tracks but really showed their weakness in the hack and slap downs. Part of that may be Valving. I use my bike more for offroad than MX so ended up getting a set of Luckies. Also had too many issues with the air side leaking. Dealer tried to fix it once, now it’s at WP waiting for a fix.
The track was not beat to hell for sure but rough enough in a few sections to get a decent feel. I would certainly like to ride it at a few other places with varied terrain. I'm going to ride at a different place Saturday to help the owner with set up but even he said he's really impressed with the forks. He's had 4-6 KTM/Husky since the new '16+ chassis and just sold his '20 and kept the KYB forks I built him because he was no fan of the '20 AER...
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gti
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5/27/2021 8:21am
Bruce372 wrote:
I think a lot of issues people have with the airforks isbad shock setup making the forks feel worse. Who knows?

Brent wrote:
Agreed. Sag set up on the KTM /Husq/GasGas is critical. Free sag should be 30 to 38mm and race sag should not be over 103mm. Any...
Agreed.

Sag set up on the KTM /Husq/GasGas is critical.

Free sag should be 30 to 38mm and race sag should not be over 103mm.
Any more sag and the bike rides like a chopper because of the softer rear spring and linkage ratios.
I run 98mm rear sag on my 350 and it has really balanced out the chassis and made the front stick in the corners.
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slipdog
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5/27/2021 8:24am
Bruce372 wrote:
Come on out to argyll this weekend
We are commited to a Riverfront for a private rental this Saturday. Hayden does like the Argyll track!
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TeamGreen
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5/27/2021 8:28am
I'm gonna roll with Ross Maeda on this one.
m21racing
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5/27/2021 8:39am
Bruce372 wrote:
Come on out to argyll this weekend
slipdog wrote:
We are commited to a Riverfront for a private rental this Saturday. Hayden does like the Argyll track!
What's going on up there? I can't hit the NV til next week.
wrc777
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slipdog wrote:
I rode a stock '21 Rockstar FC450 today and the forks were perfectly fine. On par with my CRF450 and the '21 YZ450 I rode as...
I rode a stock '21 Rockstar FC450 today and the forks were perfectly fine. On par with my CRF450 and the '21 YZ450 I rode as well. Kind of want a Husky now...
CKNY wrote:
Maybe until the track gets really rough with braking bumps and square edge hits? I found my 21 TX felt almost as good as a spring...
Maybe until the track gets really rough with braking bumps and square edge hits?
I found my 21 TX felt almost as good as a spring fork on smoother tracks but really showed their weakness in the hack and slap downs. Part of that may be Valving. I use my bike more for offroad than MX so ended up getting a set of Luckies. Also had too many issues with the air side leaking. Dealer tried to fix it once, now it’s at WP waiting for a fix.
I have the gasgas version of your bike and if anything the forks are a little soft and I am a slower rider. Maybe gasgas has completely different valving? I have heard that about the Mx bikes but I can’t believe they would take much time setting up something different for the ex300 when they have tx and xc settings there to be used. I like these better for off-road than the yz250x I had.
CKNY
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5/27/2021 8:46am
slipdog wrote:
I rode a stock '21 Rockstar FC450 today and the forks were perfectly fine. On par with my CRF450 and the '21 YZ450 I rode as...
I rode a stock '21 Rockstar FC450 today and the forks were perfectly fine. On par with my CRF450 and the '21 YZ450 I rode as well. Kind of want a Husky now...
CKNY wrote:
Maybe until the track gets really rough with braking bumps and square edge hits? I found my 21 TX felt almost as good as a spring...
Maybe until the track gets really rough with braking bumps and square edge hits?
I found my 21 TX felt almost as good as a spring fork on smoother tracks but really showed their weakness in the hack and slap downs. Part of that may be Valving. I use my bike more for offroad than MX so ended up getting a set of Luckies. Also had too many issues with the air side leaking. Dealer tried to fix it once, now it’s at WP waiting for a fix.
wrc777 wrote:
I have the gasgas version of your bike and if anything the forks are a little soft and I am a slower rider. Maybe gasgas has...
I have the gasgas version of your bike and if anything the forks are a little soft and I am a slower rider. Maybe gasgas has completely different valving? I have heard that about the Mx bikes but I can’t believe they would take much time setting up something different for the ex300 when they have tx and xc settings there to be used. I like these better for off-road than the yz250x I had.
I’ve heard the Valving is the same.
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CKNY
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5/27/2021 8:48am
Bruce372 wrote:
I think a lot of issues people have with the airforks isbad shock setup making the forks feel worse. Who knows?

Brent wrote:
Agreed. Sag set up on the KTM /Husq/GasGas is critical. Free sag should be 30 to 38mm and race sag should not be over 103mm. Any...
Agreed.

Sag set up on the KTM /Husq/GasGas is critical.

Free sag should be 30 to 38mm and race sag should not be over 103mm.
Any more sag and the bike rides like a chopper because of the softer rear spring and linkage ratios.
For MX only or offroad as well? I started out around 110 and now am closer to 105 race sag.
Brent
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5/27/2021 11:10am
Bruce372 wrote:
I think a lot of issues people have with the airforks isbad shock setup making the forks feel worse. Who knows?

Brent wrote:
Agreed. Sag set up on the KTM /Husq/GasGas is critical. Free sag should be 30 to 38mm and race sag should not be over 103mm. Any...
Agreed.

Sag set up on the KTM /Husq/GasGas is critical.

Free sag should be 30 to 38mm and race sag should not be over 103mm.
Any more sag and the bike rides like a chopper because of the softer rear spring and linkage ratios.
CKNY wrote:
For MX only or offroad as well? I started out around 110 and now am closer to 105 race sag.
I dont ride off road only moto so that is a good question.

I can tell you that because of the KTMs link ratio and the stock 4.5 NM spring, it is really easy to overload the rear suspension if the sag is below 103 or 104.

I have been doing a lot of testing with my WP shop with both a modified AER 48 air fork and the WP Cone valve fork, and believe me the sag make a huge difference with how the bike handles and how the forks work.

If the back end is low, the front end Choppers out and the fork won’t work correctly.

Some faster guys like Kris Keefer were running 95mm sag with the stock link and knuckle. I’m using REPs longer link and I find the sweet spot between 100 and 103 sag.

Also, if you weigh more than 170 with no gear ( remember gear adds 20 lbs) you should change the shock spring to a 4.8 NM .
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Mit12
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5/27/2021 12:41pm
sandhills wrote:
This is kind of a fill me in on the history here question. I stopped riding around 2009 and am back now as part of the...
This is kind of a fill me in on the history here question. I stopped riding around 2009 and am back now as part of the covid outdoor recreation resurgence.

I come back to find so much momentum going towards KTM & Friends and I'm happy to see it, hell I always sort of wanted a KTM back in the day even though my friends insisted they were a joke! I'm so glad to come back and find not only did they keep two strokes alive, they are thriving.

However, despite the fact that I'm nothing but a weekend putter who won't ever know the difference, I'm having trouble getting excited about buying anything with this hair brained WP stuff up front. Air forks? Split damping? Cone valves?

It almost seems like they're dancing around something below the surface, do Showa and KYB control some kind of patents on shim stacks or there actually real shortcomings to shim valving? WP claims bent shims are a menace, personally I never heard of it. Does that really happen?

Forks just seem like one of those end of the road technologies to me, like the swingarm, we've found it, there is no further reinventing of the wheel to be done. Am I wrong or is WP wrong or is there more to it like patent control?
Man you would have really hated the works bikes from the 80s! Pushing technological boundaries is how the bikes get better. just because it has been tried before and failed does not mean that some new technologies they can make it lighter, stronger and work better. If you don’t want improvement and development buy a Suzuki!
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sandhills
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5/27/2021 2:26pm
Mit12 wrote:
Man you would have really hated the works bikes from the 80s! Pushing technological boundaries is how the bikes get better. just because it has been...
Man you would have really hated the works bikes from the 80s! Pushing technological boundaries is how the bikes get better. just because it has been tried before and failed does not mean that some new technologies they can make it lighter, stronger and work better. If you don’t want improvement and development buy a Suzuki!
When did rear linkage become a thing? I certainly recognize that there can be pushing of the limits that progresses the technology. I don't know how quickly linkage took hold of the sport but when it did there was no question about it (except from KTM of course... bit of theme here).

My criticism is we have a situation here where that dynamic has become inverted, the KTM factory riders are not using it and the production bikes are. Successful bleeding edge tech usually comes top down, not bottom up..
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#434
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5/27/2021 3:34pm
Does 3 lbs even matter in trophy trucks? Those guys often carry a whole spare person!
sandhills wrote:
Does 3lbs really matter that much given the minimum bike weights? If that rule didn't exist and we had super light <150lb bikes I could see...
Does 3lbs really matter that much given the minimum bike weights? If that rule didn't exist and we had super light <150lb bikes I could see it being worth it, but at over 200lb I have trouble buying it.
I quit riding around the same time you did, and bought a 2021 KTM with AER forks when I got back into it. They are better...
I quit riding around the same time you did, and bought a 2021 KTM with AER forks when I got back into it.

They are better than anything I had on my 06 CRF. BY A LOT. I've ridden new YZs, and after riding them stock to stock, back to back, I honestly don't know what the fuck people are talking about when they talk down about the AERs. Granted, I'm a big dude, and maybe if you're a 160 lb mini man then the YZ is perfect or whatever, but the KTM does everything I want it to do better than any bike I've ever had.

And regarding your claim about coil springs being the best ever and taking on all-comers, here's a photo of Mercedes-Benz F1 suspension circa 2019. Show me the coil spring.
What‘s your point with the F1 suspension? They still use steel springs and not air.

I‘m also a fan of the aer forks. The separation of air spring and damping circuit keeps the air spring at a fairly constant temp and therefore spring rate. It‘s very adjustable and overall works fine. The only thing I don’t like its feel on slap down landing. However, I don’t think that has anything to do with the air spring and more with the quality of the bushings and so on.
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TooTallJason
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5/27/2021 3:47pm
sandhills wrote:
Does 3lbs really matter that much given the minimum bike weights? If that rule didn't exist and we had super light <150lb bikes I could see...
Does 3lbs really matter that much given the minimum bike weights? If that rule didn't exist and we had super light <150lb bikes I could see it being worth it, but at over 200lb I have trouble buying it.
I quit riding around the same time you did, and bought a 2021 KTM with AER forks when I got back into it. They are better...
I quit riding around the same time you did, and bought a 2021 KTM with AER forks when I got back into it.

They are better than anything I had on my 06 CRF. BY A LOT. I've ridden new YZs, and after riding them stock to stock, back to back, I honestly don't know what the fuck people are talking about when they talk down about the AERs. Granted, I'm a big dude, and maybe if you're a 160 lb mini man then the YZ is perfect or whatever, but the KTM does everything I want it to do better than any bike I've ever had.

And regarding your claim about coil springs being the best ever and taking on all-comers, here's a photo of Mercedes-Benz F1 suspension circa 2019. Show me the coil spring.
#434 wrote:
What‘s your point with the F1 suspension? They still use steel springs and not air. I‘m also a fan of the aer forks. The separation of...
What‘s your point with the F1 suspension? They still use steel springs and not air.

I‘m also a fan of the aer forks. The separation of air spring and damping circuit keeps the air spring at a fairly constant temp and therefore spring rate. It‘s very adjustable and overall works fine. The only thing I don’t like its feel on slap down landing. However, I don’t think that has anything to do with the air spring and more with the quality of the bushings and so on.
Do they? https://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/spring-less-rear-suspension-a-quiet-revolution/


And sandhills point was that coil-sprung suspensions had taken on all comers and emerged victorious. That's simply not true. Even if they are using a "spring" in F1, it's not a coil.

Additionally:

Not to argue, but until someone shows me a current F1 car with a traditional steel coil spring I'll maintain my position.
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soggy
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5/27/2021 4:07pm
wrc777 wrote:
I have the gasgas version of your bike and if anything the forks are a little soft and I am a slower rider. Maybe gasgas has...
I have the gasgas version of your bike and if anything the forks are a little soft and I am a slower rider. Maybe gasgas has completely different valving? I have heard that about the Mx bikes but I can’t believe they would take much time setting up something different for the ex300 when they have tx and xc settings there to be used. I like these better for off-road than the yz250x I had.
Try upping your air pressure in .5-1psi increments. Imo if your aer’s feel to soft or stiff you don’t have them at the right air pressure. The beauty of air is you can change your spring rate to the correct one for you.
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resetjet
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5/27/2021 4:23pm
Ktm does not have the saying Keep The Motor for nothing. For so many years they tried to perfect pds and all kinds of shitty forks. I think its just european thinking.
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wrc777
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5/27/2021 4:54pm Edited Date/Time 5/27/2021 4:57pm
wrc777 wrote:
I have the gasgas version of your bike and if anything the forks are a little soft and I am a slower rider. Maybe gasgas has...
I have the gasgas version of your bike and if anything the forks are a little soft and I am a slower rider. Maybe gasgas has completely different valving? I have heard that about the Mx bikes but I can’t believe they would take much time setting up something different for the ex300 when they have tx and xc settings there to be used. I like these better for off-road than the yz250x I had.
soggy wrote:
Try upping your air pressure in .5-1psi increments. Imo if your aer’s feel to soft or stiff you don’t have them at the right air pressure...
Try upping your air pressure in .5-1psi increments. Imo if your aer’s feel to soft or stiff you don’t have them at the right air pressure. The beauty of air is you can change your spring rate to the correct one for you.
Yeah I am too lazy to crank the air up for when I am riding in the yard (more Mx like) vs woods. Next time I go to the track I will try the Mx pressure setting which is about 10 psi higher than the ex300 base setting.

I agree through the air pressure setting has a huge influence on the fork feelings. Moto ready to trail ride ready in a few minutes is a nice feature. If I ever start playing with shim stacks the ability to revalve in half the time of a dual coil fork will be nice.
JMX82
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5/27/2021 10:15pm
sandhills wrote:
When did rear linkage become a thing? I certainly recognize that there can be pushing of the limits that progresses the technology. I don't know how...
When did rear linkage become a thing? I certainly recognize that there can be pushing of the limits that progresses the technology. I don't know how quickly linkage took hold of the sport but when it did there was no question about it (except from KTM of course... bit of theme here).

My criticism is we have a situation here where that dynamic has become inverted, the KTM factory riders are not using it and the production bikes are. Successful bleeding edge tech usually comes top down, not bottom up..
None of the Japanese brand factory riders use stock suspension components either. What's your point?
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#434
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5/28/2021 1:27am
I quit riding around the same time you did, and bought a 2021 KTM with AER forks when I got back into it. They are better...
I quit riding around the same time you did, and bought a 2021 KTM with AER forks when I got back into it.

They are better than anything I had on my 06 CRF. BY A LOT. I've ridden new YZs, and after riding them stock to stock, back to back, I honestly don't know what the fuck people are talking about when they talk down about the AERs. Granted, I'm a big dude, and maybe if you're a 160 lb mini man then the YZ is perfect or whatever, but the KTM does everything I want it to do better than any bike I've ever had.

And regarding your claim about coil springs being the best ever and taking on all-comers, here's a photo of Mercedes-Benz F1 suspension circa 2019. Show me the coil spring.
#434 wrote:
What‘s your point with the F1 suspension? They still use steel springs and not air. I‘m also a fan of the aer forks. The separation of...
What‘s your point with the F1 suspension? They still use steel springs and not air.

I‘m also a fan of the aer forks. The separation of air spring and damping circuit keeps the air spring at a fairly constant temp and therefore spring rate. It‘s very adjustable and overall works fine. The only thing I don’t like its feel on slap down landing. However, I don’t think that has anything to do with the air spring and more with the quality of the bushings and so on.
Do they? [url=https://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/spring-less-rear-suspension-a-quiet-revolution/]https://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/spring-less-rear-suspension-a-quiet-revolution/[/url] And sandhills point was that coil-sprung suspensions had taken on all comers and emerged victorious. That's simply not true. Even if they are...
Do they? https://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/spring-less-rear-suspension-a-quiet-revolution/


And sandhills point was that coil-sprung suspensions had taken on all comers and emerged victorious. That's simply not true. Even if they are using a "spring" in F1, it's not a coil.

Additionally:

Not to argue, but until someone shows me a current F1 car with a traditional steel coil spring I'll maintain my position.
Ah ok, now I get it. Sure, in a lot of applications the spring is a torsion bar (German tanks e.g.) or a belleville washers (those RedBull carbon fiber ones are cool!) and not a coil. But in all those cases you use the material‘s elasticity to act as a spring. For me that’s kind of the same compared to air or gas spring.
But you’re right: a coil spring surely isn‘t the best solution for everything. It takes more space than a torsion bar and can‘t do the things a belleville washer setup can do (but is cheaper than both).
sandhills
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5/28/2021 4:45am
JMX82 wrote:
None of the Japanese brand factory riders use stock suspension components either. What's your point?
Does factory Yamaha not use 48mm closed chamber coil spring KYB forks? It's practically the same fork with DLC coating.
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OtotheB178
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5/28/2021 5:06am
JMX82 wrote:
None of the Japanese brand factory riders use stock suspension components either. What's your point?
sandhills wrote:
Does factory Yamaha not use 48mm closed chamber coil spring KYB forks? It's practically the same fork with DLC coating.


as this video states DF14 is on KYB PSF1 forks
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soggy
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5/28/2021 6:08am
sandhills wrote:
Does factory Yamaha not use 48mm closed chamber coil spring KYB forks? It's practically the same fork with DLC coating.
How thick is your skull dude? It’s been said many times in this thread Star Yamaha is running air forks.
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wrc777
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5/28/2021 6:56am
sandhills wrote:
Does factory Yamaha not use 48mm closed chamber coil spring KYB forks? It's practically the same fork with DLC coating.
soggy wrote:
How thick is your skull dude? It’s been said many times in this thread Star Yamaha is running air forks.
It doesn’t fit his narrative that air forks will never be any good and wp should give up on them.
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