Will KTM / WP ever give up on trying to reinvent the fork?

Jeff_Brines
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Jackson, WY, USA
5/18/2021 1:51pm Edited Date/Time 5/18/2021 2:14pm
Brent wrote:
I watched that video, and while that track looks like a lot of fun, it had small jumps and no clay base. Here in California, we...
I watched that video, and while that track looks like a lot of fun, it had small jumps and no clay base.

Here in California, we have clay under sand, which produces square edge corner bumps and bomb holes under the sand, jarring the rider in corners. That is where the most current Stock AER 48 fork performs most poorly, on square edge acceleration braking and acceleration bumps entering and exiting corners.

Here is Dean Wilson at Fox raceway to show what track conditions here are like on a practice day:

https://www.instagram.com/tv/COi8Td4j94O/?utm_medium=share_sheet

If you pause the video in the corners, you can see inside the rut what Im talking about. the square edges in the rut jar the rider and throw the wheel out of the rut with the AER fork because it is not as progressive as a spring fork and therefore does not settle in.
Not trying to pick on you here, but this is a great articulation of what I'm suggesting we do with more caution. I'm not going to totally suggest you are wrong, but I am about to go way overboard here (I drank some coffee, bare with me)...

1) Most air springs are more progressive than their coil spring counterparts. This actually can make tuning tricky (can make the last 1/3 of the travel feel harsh). One way WP is trying to mitigate this is by using larger air volumes (this makes things more linear) coupled with larger negative volumes (helps things "off the top" a bit).

You can tune the progressiveness of an air spring in ways you really could never do with a coil spring. Oh, and don't forget, you've still got the oil levels to further tune things. (secondary air spring)

2) Suggesting the fork won't settle in and does not perform well through square edged impacts because its air is a hypothesis that shouldn't be taken at face value (but I'll give you a few reasons in a minute - weight, geometry & the adiabatic process).

First you have no idea what kind of high speed compression Dean is running here. Too much HSC does not bode well for these kind of impacts. The problem is Dean needs HSC when he goes gas to flat (this is where cone valves can really help - but I digress). A good tuner could (maybe) find differentiation in shaft speed & position with respect to casing/going flat and square edged impacts, but this can be one of the hardest parts of suspension tuning. Most importantly, it has nothing to do with the spring (well, almost nothing, again more on that in a minute).

Second, one thing that does seem clear with some of the air forks is they do tend to ride a little higher in the travel. When you add this to a front end that is 3 pounds lighter what do you get? An "unsettled" front end. This has more to do with weight and geometry though, not spring design.

Third, the biggest point one can make around air spring design & "feel" would be pertaining to the adiabatic process. The adiabatic process is the relationship between pressure & temperature. I won't go into the math (I already feel like I'm writing a dissertation) but the adiabatic effect is the speed sensitivity an air spring will showcase (remember, a coil spring is only position sensitive). This can lead to a different feel at high shaft speed, and again something that needs to be taken into account on the damping side of the equation too. Again, if this was hugely problimatic, we'd be venting our forks to atmosphere through some kind of check valve. Instead we use the space between the damper and the outer legs as a secondary spring, so yeah, every fork is technically an air/coil hybrid!

Ultimately, you'll learn you can't take valving from a coil fork and successfully move it to an air fork, especially with a good rider. However, if you use the uniqueness to your advantage, valve it around these properties, you can have a very high performing fork that is a lot lighter and a lot more versatile (in theory anyway).

In closing, I don't think WP is all the way there with exploiting all the strengths of an air spring, but over the next 2-3 years I do believe they'll get there, and the only ones who will hate on them are the ones who have some sort of pre conditioned bias against the technology.

15
1
Broseph
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Stevenson, WA, USA
5/18/2021 1:59pm
Brent wrote:
I watched that video, and while that track looks like a lot of fun, it had small jumps and no clay base. Here in California, we...
I watched that video, and while that track looks like a lot of fun, it had small jumps and no clay base.

Here in California, we have clay under sand, which produces square edge corner bumps and bomb holes under the sand, jarring the rider in corners. That is where the most current Stock AER 48 fork performs most poorly, on square edge acceleration braking and acceleration bumps entering and exiting corners.

Here is Dean Wilson at Fox raceway to show what track conditions here are like on a practice day:

https://www.instagram.com/tv/COi8Td4j94O/?utm_medium=share_sheet

If you pause the video in the corners, you can see inside the rut what Im talking about. the square edges in the rut jar the rider and throw the wheel out of the rut with the AER fork because it is not as progressive as a spring fork and therefore does not settle in.
Not trying to pick on you here, but this is a great articulation of what I'm suggesting we do with more caution. I'm not going to...
Not trying to pick on you here, but this is a great articulation of what I'm suggesting we do with more caution. I'm not going to totally suggest you are wrong, but I am about to go way overboard here (I drank some coffee, bare with me)...

1) Most air springs are more progressive than their coil spring counterparts. This actually can make tuning tricky (can make the last 1/3 of the travel feel harsh). One way WP is trying to mitigate this is by using larger air volumes (this makes things more linear) coupled with larger negative volumes (helps things "off the top" a bit).

You can tune the progressiveness of an air spring in ways you really could never do with a coil spring. Oh, and don't forget, you've still got the oil levels to further tune things. (secondary air spring)

2) Suggesting the fork won't settle in and does not perform well through square edged impacts because its air is a hypothesis that shouldn't be taken at face value (but I'll give you a few reasons in a minute - weight, geometry & the adiabatic process).

First you have no idea what kind of high speed compression Dean is running here. Too much HSC does not bode well for these kind of impacts. The problem is Dean needs HSC when he goes gas to flat (this is where cone valves can really help - but I digress). A good tuner could (maybe) find differentiation in shaft speed & position with respect to casing/going flat and square edged impacts, but this can be one of the hardest parts of suspension tuning. Most importantly, it has nothing to do with the spring (well, almost nothing, again more on that in a minute).

Second, one thing that does seem clear with some of the air forks is they do tend to ride a little higher in the travel. When you add this to a front end that is 3 pounds lighter what do you get? An "unsettled" front end. This has more to do with weight and geometry though, not spring design.

Third, the biggest point one can make around air spring design & "feel" would be pertaining to the adiabatic process. The adiabatic process is the relationship between pressure & temperature. I won't go into the math (I already feel like I'm writing a dissertation) but the adiabatic effect is the speed sensitivity an air spring will showcase (remember, a coil spring is only position sensitive). This can lead to a different feel at high shaft speed, and again something that needs to be taken into account on the damping side of the equation too. Again, if this was hugely problimatic, we'd be venting our forks to atmosphere through some kind of check valve. Instead we use the space between the damper and the outer legs as a secondary spring, so yeah, every fork is technically an air/coil hybrid!

Ultimately, you'll learn you can't take valving from a coil fork and successfully move it to an air fork, especially with a good rider. However, if you use the uniqueness to your advantage, valve it around these properties, you can have a very high performing fork that is a lot lighter and a lot more versatile (in theory anyway).

In closing, I don't think WP is all the way there with exploiting all the strengths of an air spring, but over the next 2-3 years I do believe they'll get there, and the only ones who will hate on them are the ones who have some sort of pre conditioned bias against the technology.

Are you saying a rider should shut up and be happy with the performance of his 2017 AER forks because KTM will have it right in 2-3 years?
2
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Jeff_Brines
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Jackson, WY, USA
5/18/2021 2:05pm
Broseph wrote:
Are you saying a rider should shut up and be happy with the performance of his 2017 AER forks because KTM will have it right in...
Are you saying a rider should shut up and be happy with the performance of his 2017 AER forks because KTM will have it right in 2-3 years?
Did I black out and write something I don't remember? (its possible)

I didn't say that anywhere; inferred or otherwise.

The questions at hand is a mix between "why does WP insist on air springs" and "suspension won't get any better".

I'm suggesting air springs can actually be made to perform very well and suspension will indeed get much better (unlike "a swingarm" (which I also would bet gets better). I feel I've backed both points up adequately. As far as your 17s go, yeah, an air sprung fork can also be very bad, just like a coil sprung fork can also be very bad. Devil is in the details.



12
1
Broseph
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Stevenson, WA, USA
5/18/2021 2:21pm
Broseph wrote:
Are you saying a rider should shut up and be happy with the performance of his 2017 AER forks because KTM will have it right in...
Are you saying a rider should shut up and be happy with the performance of his 2017 AER forks because KTM will have it right in 2-3 years?
Did I black out and write something I don't remember? (its possible) I didn't say that anywhere; inferred or otherwise. The questions at hand is a...
Did I black out and write something I don't remember? (its possible)

I didn't say that anywhere; inferred or otherwise.

The questions at hand is a mix between "why does WP insist on air springs" and "suspension won't get any better".

I'm suggesting air springs can actually be made to perform very well and suspension will indeed get much better (unlike "a swingarm" (which I also would bet gets better). I feel I've backed both points up adequately. As far as your 17s go, yeah, an air sprung fork can also be very bad, just like a coil sprung fork can also be very bad. Devil is in the details.



That was a stupid comment on my part. My bad.

I appreciate the technical insight and hope WP does eventually get it right. I’d love to stop paying $1500 for suspension parts on top of a $10k bike that is awesome in every other way.
3

The Shop

Jeff_Brines
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Jackson, WY, USA
5/18/2021 2:25pm Edited Date/Time 5/18/2021 2:26pm
Broseph wrote:
That was a stupid comment on my part. My bad. I appreciate the technical insight and hope WP does eventually get it right. I’d love to...
That was a stupid comment on my part. My bad.

I appreciate the technical insight and hope WP does eventually get it right. I’d love to stop paying $1500 for suspension parts on top of a $10k bike that is awesome in every other way.
No sweat man. I do think a good thread at some point would be "products that never should have been released to the public". Sometimes a good idea isn't ready and needs more time, like serving undercooked pork... I never rode the 17 AERs, but from what it sounds like, they were pulled out of the oven a bit early.

(I know, my analogies need work)

3
Mx Wildcat
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Loyall, KY, USA
5/18/2021 2:35pm
I own a 2020 350sxf that is stock. I thought the forks were pretty good...until I rode my sons 2021 YZ250f. There is no comparison. The WP's are either too soft and blow through the stroke or if you put the pressure up to stiffen the forks to keep them higher in the stroke they suffer from mid-stroke harshness. The SSS forks on the 21 yz are pretty damn good. They stay high in the stroke but are still plush on braking bumps and big jumps. I should have prefaced this with my stats first; 5'5'', 170lbs w/o gear. intermediate 40+. I ride rough tracks here back east so I have to run a bit stiffer set up than out west.
I don't understand why KTM doesn't ditch the air fork and just copy the SSS fork. It would kill on the shootouts and also customer satisfaction. After riding my sons bike I have seriously just considered buying a set of forks off a yz250f and adapting them to the KTM (if that's possible). They're that good.
3
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Brent
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Temecula, CA, USA
5/18/2021 2:46pm
Not trying to pick on you here, but this is a great articulation of what I'm suggesting we do with more caution. I'm not going to...
Not trying to pick on you here, but this is a great articulation of what I'm suggesting we do with more caution. I'm not going to totally suggest you are wrong, but I am about to go way overboard here (I drank some coffee, bare with me)...

1) Most air springs are more progressive than their coil spring counterparts. This actually can make tuning tricky (can make the last 1/3 of the travel feel harsh). One way WP is trying to mitigate this is by using larger air volumes (this makes things more linear) coupled with larger negative volumes (helps things "off the top" a bit).

You can tune the progressiveness of an air spring in ways you really could never do with a coil spring. Oh, and don't forget, you've still got the oil levels to further tune things. (secondary air spring)

2) Suggesting the fork won't settle in and does not perform well through square edged impacts because its air is a hypothesis that shouldn't be taken at face value (but I'll give you a few reasons in a minute - weight, geometry & the adiabatic process).

First you have no idea what kind of high speed compression Dean is running here. Too much HSC does not bode well for these kind of impacts. The problem is Dean needs HSC when he goes gas to flat (this is where cone valves can really help - but I digress). A good tuner could (maybe) find differentiation in shaft speed & position with respect to casing/going flat and square edged impacts, but this can be one of the hardest parts of suspension tuning. Most importantly, it has nothing to do with the spring (well, almost nothing, again more on that in a minute).

Second, one thing that does seem clear with some of the air forks is they do tend to ride a little higher in the travel. When you add this to a front end that is 3 pounds lighter what do you get? An "unsettled" front end. This has more to do with weight and geometry though, not spring design.

Third, the biggest point one can make around air spring design & "feel" would be pertaining to the adiabatic process. The adiabatic process is the relationship between pressure & temperature. I won't go into the math (I already feel like I'm writing a dissertation) but the adiabatic effect is the speed sensitivity an air spring will showcase (remember, a coil spring is only position sensitive). This can lead to a different feel at high shaft speed, and again something that needs to be taken into account on the damping side of the equation too. Again, if this was hugely problimatic, we'd be venting our forks to atmosphere through some kind of check valve. Instead we use the space between the damper and the outer legs as a secondary spring, so yeah, every fork is technically an air/coil hybrid!

Ultimately, you'll learn you can't take valving from a coil fork and successfully move it to an air fork, especially with a good rider. However, if you use the uniqueness to your advantage, valve it around these properties, you can have a very high performing fork that is a lot lighter and a lot more versatile (in theory anyway).

In closing, I don't think WP is all the way there with exploiting all the strengths of an air spring, but over the next 2-3 years I do believe they'll get there, and the only ones who will hate on them are the ones who have some sort of pre conditioned bias against the technology.

I am not a suspension technician, but I can relay my personal experiences when I ride the motorcycle.

I have been working with (paying) the premier WP suspension technician on improving my WP AER 48 since I got the bike last September. He is a former WP factory suspension technician.

I have tried all combinations of oil height, fork pressure, valve stack changes, compression and rebound settings.

I even tried several different sag, spring weight, link and knuckle options in the rear, because I really do think the air fork is the way to go in the future, and I didn't really want to be forced to convert to a Cone and Trax combo over the stock components.

I really want to like the air fork, I have four pars of them, and the latest re valve is pretty good as compared to what they were.

But in the end I relented, bit the bullet and purchased pairs of Cone and Trax components after test riding a Husky equipped with them at Glen Helen.

Every rider has a different feel, but FOR ME, the WP 7548 fork doesn't jar me in a rut filled with square edges like the AER 48 did, I can also turn in much easier in with a more planted feeling.

Like I may have said before, on some sections of a track, like flat landing or whoops, I think the AER fork is superior to the spring fork in giving confidence and stability - but for the small bumps and chop, It is just too jarring for me at race speed to try and get some comfort.





2
1
Brent
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Temecula, CA, USA
5/18/2021 2:50pm
Mx Wildcat wrote:
I own a 2020 350sxf that is stock. I thought the forks were pretty good...until I rode my sons 2021 YZ250f. There is no comparison. The...
I own a 2020 350sxf that is stock. I thought the forks were pretty good...until I rode my sons 2021 YZ250f. There is no comparison. The WP's are either too soft and blow through the stroke or if you put the pressure up to stiffen the forks to keep them higher in the stroke they suffer from mid-stroke harshness. The SSS forks on the 21 yz are pretty damn good. They stay high in the stroke but are still plush on braking bumps and big jumps. I should have prefaced this with my stats first; 5'5'', 170lbs w/o gear. intermediate 40+. I ride rough tracks here back east so I have to run a bit stiffer set up than out west.
I don't understand why KTM doesn't ditch the air fork and just copy the SSS fork. It would kill on the shootouts and also customer satisfaction. After riding my sons bike I have seriously just considered buying a set of forks off a yz250f and adapting them to the KTM (if that's possible). They're that good.
I tried a WP fork with KYB inserts from Enzo, they were almost as good as the stock KYB SSS fork, Call Enzo.
2
2
Jeff_Brines
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Jackson, WY, USA
5/18/2021 2:55pm
Brent wrote:
I am not a suspension technician, but I can relay my personal experiences when I ride the motorcycle. I have been working with (paying) the premier...
I am not a suspension technician, but I can relay my personal experiences when I ride the motorcycle.

I have been working with (paying) the premier WP suspension technician on improving my WP AER 48 since I got the bike last September. He is a former WP factory suspension technician.

I have tried all combinations of oil height, fork pressure, valve stack changes, compression and rebound settings.

I even tried several different sag, spring weight, link and knuckle options in the rear, because I really do think the air fork is the way to go in the future, and I didn't really want to be forced to convert to a Cone and Trax combo over the stock components.

I really want to like the air fork, I have four pars of them, and the latest re valve is pretty good as compared to what they were.

But in the end I relented, bit the bullet and purchased pairs of Cone and Trax components after test riding a Husky equipped with them at Glen Helen.

Every rider has a different feel, but FOR ME, the WP 7548 fork doesn't jar me in a rut filled with square edges like the AER 48 did, I can also turn in much easier in with a more planted feeling.

Like I may have said before, on some sections of a track, like flat landing or whoops, I think the AER fork is superior to the spring fork in giving confidence and stability - but for the small bumps and chop, It is just too jarring for me at race speed to try and get some comfort.





Reread what I wrote, and don't want to suggest any rider's feelings are somehow wrong. I'm just not convinced its all the spring's fault. For a lot of riders they can be made to work very well, especially the 2020s and 2021s.

But yeah, CVs are awesome.

One other thing I do want to point out, I'm an off road rider and can sacrifice some bottoming resistence to open up the fork's damping through square edged impacts (I'm using oil heights and the spring to prevent bottoming more than HSC).

1
JMX82
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Hyllykallio, FI
5/19/2021 3:04am
JMX82 wrote:
The track where I tested the bikes was one of the roughest sand tracks in Finland and it had't been graded for a while. Yamaha front...
The track where I tested the bikes was one of the roughest sand tracks in Finland and it had't been graded for a while. Yamaha front forks stayed too low in the stroke and made the whole bike feel unbalanced and very difficult to ride in deep sand ruts. I'm sure stiffer fork springs would have cured Yamaha issues but in stock form Gas Gas WP forks where much better in those conditions and all my friends who rode the bikes felt same way.

Here's a video from the track where I rode the bike's while it's still in relatively smooth condition

https://youtu.be/FPy1LZLN9hQ
Brent wrote:
I watched that video, and while that track looks like a lot of fun, it had small jumps and no clay base. Here in California, we...
I watched that video, and while that track looks like a lot of fun, it had small jumps and no clay base.

Here in California, we have clay under sand, which produces square edge corner bumps and bomb holes under the sand, jarring the rider in corners. That is where the most current Stock AER 48 fork performs most poorly, on square edge acceleration braking and acceleration bumps entering and exiting corners.

Here is Dean Wilson at Fox raceway to show what track conditions here are like on a practice day:

https://www.instagram.com/tv/COi8Td4j94O/?utm_medium=share_sheet

If you pause the video in the corners, you can see inside the rut what Im talking about. the square edges in the rut jar the rider and throw the wheel out of the rut with the AER fork because it is not as progressive as a spring fork and therefore does not settle in.
I agree about the track conditions. The track where I rode the both bikes is what would you call Lommel style "bottomless sand". I'm quite unfamiliar riding in real hard pack tracks because there are only about 2-3 real clay based tracks here and everything else is more or less sand in Finland. None of the clay based tracks are near my location so setting up suspension for that is not required here and I don't have any experience on that
OtotheB178
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Bristol, GB
5/19/2021 4:04am
Mx Wildcat wrote:
I own a 2020 350sxf that is stock. I thought the forks were pretty good...until I rode my sons 2021 YZ250f. There is no comparison. The...
I own a 2020 350sxf that is stock. I thought the forks were pretty good...until I rode my sons 2021 YZ250f. There is no comparison. The WP's are either too soft and blow through the stroke or if you put the pressure up to stiffen the forks to keep them higher in the stroke they suffer from mid-stroke harshness. The SSS forks on the 21 yz are pretty damn good. They stay high in the stroke but are still plush on braking bumps and big jumps. I should have prefaced this with my stats first; 5'5'', 170lbs w/o gear. intermediate 40+. I ride rough tracks here back east so I have to run a bit stiffer set up than out west.
I don't understand why KTM doesn't ditch the air fork and just copy the SSS fork. It would kill on the shootouts and also customer satisfaction. After riding my sons bike I have seriously just considered buying a set of forks off a yz250f and adapting them to the KTM (if that's possible). They're that good.
I'm guessing you tried leaving the Air the same and using the clickers as well? People tend to get fixated on the air pressure and ignore the fact that the forks still have compression and rebound clickers. Not teaching a grandma to suck eggs just asking the question.
1
BikePilot
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Golden, CO, USA
5/19/2021 4:18am
I have to ask, why can't nitrogen be used in the air fork to prevent pressure changes as the temp rises during a ride, wether it...
I have to ask, why can't nitrogen be used in the air fork to prevent pressure changes as the temp rises during a ride, wether it be a 30 min moto or a 4 hour off road ride?
Do the factory teams use nitrogen?
You can and many people do. I’d guess that all the race teams do. I have 148psi of nitrogen in mine right now.
Madmax31
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Cincinnati, OH, USA
Fantasy
5/19/2021 4:28am
sandhills wrote:
This is kind of a fill me in on the history here question. I stopped riding around 2009 and am back now as part of the...
This is kind of a fill me in on the history here question. I stopped riding around 2009 and am back now as part of the covid outdoor recreation resurgence.

I come back to find so much momentum going towards KTM & Friends and I'm happy to see it, hell I always sort of wanted a KTM back in the day even though my friends insisted they were a joke! I'm so glad to come back and find not only did they keep two strokes alive, they are thriving.

However, despite the fact that I'm nothing but a weekend putter who won't ever know the difference, I'm having trouble getting excited about buying anything with this hair brained WP stuff up front. Air forks? Split damping? Cone valves?

It almost seems like they're dancing around something below the surface, do Showa and KYB control some kind of patents on shim stacks or there actually real shortcomings to shim valving? WP claims bent shims are a menace, personally I never heard of it. Does that really happen?

Forks just seem like one of those end of the road technologies to me, like the swingarm, we've found it, there is no further reinventing of the wheel to be done. Am I wrong or is WP wrong or is there more to it like patent control?
Madmax31 wrote:
I rode a 19 FE 450 and thought they were the best production forks I've ever ridden on. Really don't get the hate at all. Seems...
I rode a 19 FE 450 and thought they were the best production forks I've ever ridden on. Really don't get the hate at all. Seems like a mob mentality to me. I'd say they are the best forks on any bike besides the Yamaha.
Broseph wrote:
‘19 FE 450 with the Xplor forks? You must have not hit any bumps at speed.

Edit: Just realized you might have meant Factory Edition.
Yes, Factory Ed.
wrc777
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Greenwood, IN, USA
Fantasy
5/19/2021 5:48am
Mx Wildcat wrote:
I own a 2020 350sxf that is stock. I thought the forks were pretty good...until I rode my sons 2021 YZ250f. There is no comparison. The...
I own a 2020 350sxf that is stock. I thought the forks were pretty good...until I rode my sons 2021 YZ250f. There is no comparison. The WP's are either too soft and blow through the stroke or if you put the pressure up to stiffen the forks to keep them higher in the stroke they suffer from mid-stroke harshness. The SSS forks on the 21 yz are pretty damn good. They stay high in the stroke but are still plush on braking bumps and big jumps. I should have prefaced this with my stats first; 5'5'', 170lbs w/o gear. intermediate 40+. I ride rough tracks here back east so I have to run a bit stiffer set up than out west.
I don't understand why KTM doesn't ditch the air fork and just copy the SSS fork. It would kill on the shootouts and also customer satisfaction. After riding my sons bike I have seriously just considered buying a set of forks off a yz250f and adapting them to the KTM (if that's possible). They're that good.
The '21 is a pretty big improvement in harshness over the 2020. You can also get KYB inserts in the WP forks and some like them better than a full KYB setup but at that point they are usually comparing KYB inserts on a KTM vs a Yamaha.
1
soggy
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USA
5/19/2021 6:16am
Mx Wildcat wrote:
I own a 2020 350sxf that is stock. I thought the forks were pretty good...until I rode my sons 2021 YZ250f. There is no comparison. The...
I own a 2020 350sxf that is stock. I thought the forks were pretty good...until I rode my sons 2021 YZ250f. There is no comparison. The WP's are either too soft and blow through the stroke or if you put the pressure up to stiffen the forks to keep them higher in the stroke they suffer from mid-stroke harshness. The SSS forks on the 21 yz are pretty damn good. They stay high in the stroke but are still plush on braking bumps and big jumps. I should have prefaced this with my stats first; 5'5'', 170lbs w/o gear. intermediate 40+. I ride rough tracks here back east so I have to run a bit stiffer set up than out west.
I don't understand why KTM doesn't ditch the air fork and just copy the SSS fork. It would kill on the shootouts and also customer satisfaction. After riding my sons bike I have seriously just considered buying a set of forks off a yz250f and adapting them to the KTM (if that's possible). They're that good.
Not singling you out but the biggest mistake people make with the air fork is tuning with air pressure. Once you find the pressure where you are using all but 1/2 or so of travel on your average laps stick with it. From there tune with the clickers.
6
1
5/19/2021 6:55am
Mx Wildcat wrote:
I own a 2020 350sxf that is stock. I thought the forks were pretty good...until I rode my sons 2021 YZ250f. There is no comparison. The...
I own a 2020 350sxf that is stock. I thought the forks were pretty good...until I rode my sons 2021 YZ250f. There is no comparison. The WP's are either too soft and blow through the stroke or if you put the pressure up to stiffen the forks to keep them higher in the stroke they suffer from mid-stroke harshness. The SSS forks on the 21 yz are pretty damn good. They stay high in the stroke but are still plush on braking bumps and big jumps. I should have prefaced this with my stats first; 5'5'', 170lbs w/o gear. intermediate 40+. I ride rough tracks here back east so I have to run a bit stiffer set up than out west.
I don't understand why KTM doesn't ditch the air fork and just copy the SSS fork. It would kill on the shootouts and also customer satisfaction. After riding my sons bike I have seriously just considered buying a set of forks off a yz250f and adapting them to the KTM (if that's possible). They're that good.
soggy wrote:
Not singling you out but the biggest mistake people make with the air fork is tuning with air pressure. Once you find the pressure where you...
Not singling you out but the biggest mistake people make with the air fork is tuning with air pressure. Once you find the pressure where you are using all but 1/2 or so of travel on your average laps stick with it. From there tune with the clickers.
That's an odd one to me. People don't try to adjust spring forks with spring rate once they are set for weight.
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sandhills
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5/19/2021 7:14am
A lot more money has gone into suspension development in other motorsports; Road bikes, rally cars, F1, stock cars, trophy trucks, all of them.

Have either air springs or spring valve oil dampers (cone valves) succeeded in any of them? I think coil springs and shim valving have faced all challengers over suspension history and still come out on top. I find it hard to believe that there is some remaining secret to be unlocked, some idea KTM is going to have that hasn't already been tried in other racing.
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5/19/2021 7:28am Edited Date/Time 5/19/2021 7:31am
sandhills wrote:
A lot more money has gone into suspension development in other motorsports; Road bikes, rally cars, F1, stock cars, trophy trucks, all of them. Have either...
A lot more money has gone into suspension development in other motorsports; Road bikes, rally cars, F1, stock cars, trophy trucks, all of them.

Have either air springs or spring valve oil dampers (cone valves) succeeded in any of them? I think coil springs and shim valving have faced all challengers over suspension history and still come out on top. I find it hard to believe that there is some remaining secret to be unlocked, some idea KTM is going to have that hasn't already been tried in other racing.
Does 3 lbs even matter in trophy trucks? Those guys often carry a whole spare person!
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sandhills
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5/19/2021 7:56am Edited Date/Time 5/19/2021 7:56am
Does 3 lbs even matter in trophy trucks? Those guys often carry a whole spare person!
Does 3lbs really matter that much given the minimum bike weights? If that rule didn't exist and we had super light <150lb bikes I could see it being worth it, but at over 200lb I have trouble buying it.
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5/19/2021 8:15am Edited Date/Time 5/19/2021 8:21am
Does 3 lbs even matter in trophy trucks? Those guys often carry a whole spare person!
sandhills wrote:
Does 3lbs really matter that much given the minimum bike weights? If that rule didn't exist and we had super light <150lb bikes I could see...
Does 3lbs really matter that much given the minimum bike weights? If that rule didn't exist and we had super light <150lb bikes I could see it being worth it, but at over 200lb I have trouble buying it.
Short answer: Yes, 3 lbs on an MX bike is HUGE, and that last 10 lbs versus their competitors is KTM's only big marketplace advantage.
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TooTallJason
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5/19/2021 8:20am
Does 3 lbs even matter in trophy trucks? Those guys often carry a whole spare person!
sandhills wrote:
Does 3lbs really matter that much given the minimum bike weights? If that rule didn't exist and we had super light <150lb bikes I could see...
Does 3lbs really matter that much given the minimum bike weights? If that rule didn't exist and we had super light <150lb bikes I could see it being worth it, but at over 200lb I have trouble buying it.
I quit riding around the same time you did, and bought a 2021 KTM with AER forks when I got back into it.

They are better than anything I had on my 06 CRF. BY A LOT. I've ridden new YZs, and after riding them stock to stock, back to back, I honestly don't know what the fuck people are talking about when they talk down about the AERs. Granted, I'm a big dude, and maybe if you're a 160 lb mini man then the YZ is perfect or whatever, but the KTM does everything I want it to do better than any bike I've ever had.

And regarding your claim about coil springs being the best ever and taking on all-comers, here's a photo of Mercedes-Benz F1 suspension circa 2019. Show me the coil spring.
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sandhills
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5/19/2021 8:21am
Ok, so then if 3lbs is so important, why aren't any KTM pro racers using them.
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5/19/2021 8:23am Edited Date/Time 5/19/2021 8:38am
sandhills wrote:
Ok, so then if 3lbs is so important, why aren't any KTM pro racers using them.
?

Lots of KTM pro racers are on air springs.
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seth505
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5/19/2021 8:29am Edited Date/Time 5/19/2021 8:31am
sandhills wrote:
Ok, so then if 3lbs is so important, why aren't any KTM pro racers using them.
No disrespect, but your argument has no legs. No pro rider on any top team is using stock forks. That includes all of the manufacturers using spring forks on the dealer floor. The stock WP forks are very good, they don't need thousands of dollars to "become ridable" like some people will tell everyone.

I spent under $500 with Enzo and that included revalving the rear shock as well, for suspension that I liked better than my previous YZ. It didn't feel perfect but no suspension I've ever ridden felt perfect. Lastly, I've ridden Austrian bikes with Ohlins, WP cone valves and a few bikes with Showa & KYB A-kit setups.
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JMX82
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Hyllykallio, FI
5/19/2021 10:04am
sandhills wrote:
Ok, so then if 3lbs is so important, why aren't any KTM pro racers using them.
Show me the pro rider who's riding Yamaha with stock suspension...
5/19/2021 10:05am Edited Date/Time 5/19/2021 10:14am
sandhills wrote:
Ok, so then if 3lbs is so important, why aren't any KTM pro racers using them.
JMX82 wrote:
Show me the pro rider who's riding Yamaha with stock suspension...
Chiz.

But the takeaway there is both the Yamaha and KTM suspension are very capable for everyone, even guys as fast as him.
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soggy
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5/19/2021 11:34am
sandhills wrote:
Ok, so then if 3lbs is so important, why aren't any KTM pro racers using them.
Most of the factory ktm guys are on air forks.
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swatdoc
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Temecula, CA, USA
5/25/2021 9:26pm
Hey Brent - Who's your WP suspension guy in Temecula?
J-Mill
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Cottonwood, CA, USA
5/25/2021 10:02pm
sandhills wrote:
Ok, so then if 3lbs is so important, why aren't any KTM pro racers using them.
soggy wrote:
Most of the factory ktm guys are on air forks.
Pretty sure they are all on 52mm Cone-Valve spring forks... Most likely with the cones removed and replaced with shim stacks.
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OtotheB178
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Bristol, GB
5/26/2021 3:15am
sandhills wrote:
Ok, so then if 3lbs is so important, why aren't any KTM pro racers using them.
you know some of the KTM pro racers were using an air shock as well, right?
Alot of teams use Air in SX because it has the characteristics that suit it better, such as ramp up and a more dead feeling. Small bump compliance is low down the list so they can run higher pressures and cyclic heat increasing the 'spring' pressure is less prevalent than outdoors. Still a fair few riders running Air forks outdoors as well. Once the air is set it's just shims and pistons like a Spring fork, it just requires different stacks due to the difference in 'spring' properties.


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